Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha

[jkhan]

Salaam,
Just consider that's your truth and I have mine.

I know why you're thinking that way, and I don't have to prove anything. I just don't agree the way you thinking and some rules/standard you have setup on your framework. So you have to understand that you cannot bring me to your standard and vice versa.

I'm here just to share my opinion, God is fully aware of who is best guided, not you and not me.

17:84   Say: "Let each work according to his own. Your Lord is fully aware of who is best guided to the path."

So my suggestion, stop thinking that you're the only center of the truth, and you're the only "Quran". Just share your opinion, I'm fully understand the way you're thinking, and I don't blame you for that.

I just don't like people when they asked for feedback on their opinion and when someone disagree on him, suddenly he become prophet Shuaib talking to non believers.

You have to learn on how to agree to disagree.

Peace

Peace. 

It's not I am being the centre of the truth.. It's about your claim on Quran for which there is no tangible evidence..

Your claim that in Musa's story a boy was brutally killed and I am against it  within Quran and instead of responding to the subject you writing far from the essence what I said... Just prove the boy was killed and you in black white written that the boy was killed.. Isn't that your duty to say why you take that boy was killed.. Does Quran say or you took it that way?

Further you said that you believe that God TOLD Ibrahim to SACRIFICE his son... These are huge claims in the name of God and His book...

So I am against both of your claims.. Just substantiate yout claims as true...that's all I am asking from you and not stories about me being centre of truth bla bla.. These are preconceived notions about me in your or people's  minds that comes out when I speak with Quran that goes against their view.. Well.. You have two massive claims. Just answer to God...

[Nom de plume]

It was not metaphorical rather literal "so slew him" similar to how whole families including innocent babies get blown up by laser guided missiles, diseases like cancers, famine, natural disasters, etc.

‎5:30 فطوعت so prompted له to him نفسه soul (inner self or conscious mind) his قتل slay اخىه brother his فقتله so slew him فاصبح so became من of الخسرىن the losers

5:30 Faţawwa`at Lahu Nafsuhu Qatla 'Akhīhi Faqatalahu Fa'aşbaĥa Mina Al-Khāsirīna

‎18:74 فانطلقا so precedes dual حتى until اذا when of لقىا met dual غلما boy of (age below maturity) فقتله so slew him قال said اقتلت has slain thou نفسا soul of زكىه pure بغىر in other than نفس soul (consciousness) لقد hath assuredly جىت came thou شىىا thing of نكرا harsh of

18:74 Fānţalaqā Ĥattá 'Idhā Laqiyā Ghulāmāan Faqatalahu Qāla 'Aqatalta Nafsāan Zakīyatan Bighayri Nafsin Laqad Ji'ta Shay'āan Nukrāan

‎18:80 واما and as for الغلم the boy فكان so be (are) ابواه parents' dual his مومنىن who believers two فخشىنا so fear we of ان that ىرهقهما covered (engulfed) them dual طغىنا transgression of وكفرا and rejection of

18:80 Wa 'Ammā Al-Ghulāmu Fakāna 'Abawāhu Mu'uminayni Fakhashīnā 'An Yurhiqahumā Ţughyānāan Wa Kufrāan

‎18:81 فاردنا so intends we of ان that ىبدلهما exchanged for them dual ربهما lord them dual خىرا better of منه from him زكوه purer واقرب and nearer رحما affection of

18:81 Fa'aradnā 'An Yubdilahumā Rabbuhumā Khayrāan Minhu Zakāatan Wa 'Aqraba Ruĥmāan

[amin]

I see its the story of a Man(possibly a vegetarian) who relocated to the dessert, he struggled and faced extreme hardships for survival, his consciousness and thought its God's will to sacrifice his son as the only option, God blessed him with a new way, with a goat surfaced and he sacrificed that.

Its a belief of Goodness ways. Many animals too kill their off-springs for survival.

[tlihawa]

Salaam amin,

I see its the story of a Man(possibly a vegetarian) who relocated to the dessert, he struggled and faced extreme hardships for survival, his consciousness and thought its God's will to sacrifice his son as the only option, God blessed him with a new way, with a goat surfaced and he sacrificed that.

Its a belief of Goodness ways. Many animals too kill their off-springs for survival.

never heard such story before. But I do believe, we are forbidden to kill other people except for the reasons explained in the book.

The stories in the Quran are told so that we can take lessons. However, we must be flexible enough to understand the context.

In the case of the murder of a child in the story of the prophet Musa, Prophet Musa reacted exactly according to God's law that he understood, that killing is permissible only to avenge another soul.

But the Quran certainly has deviations for very good reasons. for example,

- When Ibrahim lied about who broke the idols of his people (he lied for good reason)
- When Ibrahim cut four birds into pieces just to satisfy his curiosity how Allah brings the dead back to life, (the birds were not really dead)
- When the fire grew cold when it burned Ibrahim. This is "against God's law" regarding the nature of fire
- When Musa walked in the middle of the sea, so he and his people were safe but not with Pharaoh and his army. This "violates God's law" regarding the nature of water
- and various other examples

does this make God inconsistent with his laws?

Of course not, because these all have good reasons. We can't dictate to God what he can and can't do. Don't be god to God 

Even though Prophet Ibrahim was ordered to kill his son, his son did not really die

The child who was killed in the case of Musa, did not violate God's law, because God knew that he would coerce and suppress his parents, a reason where we are allowed to fight and kill.

That is why I wrote earlier about the importance of prioritizing God's revelation over our conscience.

Today very often Quran verses are translated according to human ethical standards.

For example,
Human ethics dictates that a man may not beat a woman, so the Quran must comply with this rule.

I think it's fine, as long as there is no tendency to feel embarrassed seeing that the Quran does not comply with man-made ethical standards.

Peace..

[Wakas]

peace all,

amin,
We can all have different views, that is fine, but my article specifically has questions people can run their understanding through. Unfortunately very few people do and simply continue on their merry way.
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Abraham-Sacrifice-Questions.html
For example you can see this post for what happened when jkhan attempted to answer those Qs.

tlihawa,
The Abraham four birds story has been discussed on here before, e.g. here. as well as Moses water split story (tsunami, wind set down). Each can have "natural laws" explanations.


Background:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15458.0
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604966.msg320062#msg320062
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597934.msg194774#msg194774

[tlihawa]

Salaam Wakas,

peace all,

amin,
We can all have different views, that is fine, but my article specifically has questions people can run their understanding through. Unfortunately very few people do and simply continue on their merry way.
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Abraham-Sacrifice-Questions.html
For example you can see this post for what happened when jkhan attempted to answer those Qs.

tlihawa,
The Abraham four birds story has been discussed on here before, e.g. here. as well as Moses water split story (tsunami, wind set down). Each can have "natural laws" explanations.


Background:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15458.0
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604966.msg320062#msg320062
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597934.msg194774#msg194774

Thanks for the links given. Perhaps the last one was misquoted?

But it's okay. I have been here for years and I've seen various opinions about this "law of nature".

And as you can see for yourself in the thread you provided, your view of 2:260 has been rebutted by several people. This is not because of you or them have bad logic, but because everyone has their own scenario or context in their heads.

Just as you construct a number of questions about Ibrahim and his son with the intention of helping others draw conclusions, but basically the questions you ask cannot be separated from the context that you have built and believed in before. And it can be irrelevant to other with different context and different way of thinking.

Everyone has their own context that is built in their head which greatly influences how they translate a verse.

If you believe that Allah will not make deviations in His laws even with good reasons, then you will try to explain all the "miracles" into "natural law", and all the "evil command by God" to something else.. And I think there's a lot of homework needs to be done (ie. Creation of Adam, Musa's white hand, creation of Isa, etc)

That is why, we cannot expect that the same methodology will produce the same conclusion.

When you have built a certain context in your head, all related verses will certainly be translated to support that context.

In addressing differences of opinion, I prefer to find out the context in which a person bases himself, to see why he comes to that conclusion, and to understand why it's different with mine. And I don't immediately judge that his logic is bad, we just differ in the context we use. Logic only works to support that context.

Don't be disappointed if people disagree with you, we just differ in understanding the context that underlies our way of thinking. This is not a right or wrong area, this is just an agree or disagree area.

Btw, I saw the progress of studyquran.co.uk stuck at 93%? What's going on? Really admire your works. It helps me a lot. Thank you.

Peace

[Wakas]

peace tlihawa,

I appreciate the way you framed your response.

No, that last link was correct, it cites 2:260 in it, and the use of logic / critical thinking in general.

Yes people attempted rebuttal of my interpretation of 2:260. Pay careful attention to how many actually answered the questions I asked. Similar to this thread.

And lastly I do not deny "miracles". All I am pointing out is there may be a "natural law" explanation for some (all?).


Project Root List is effectively complete but the grammar info could have more detail here and there and the grammar info has not been fully checked over. Originally we were waiting on the developer Kais of corpus.quran.com to update their site but he has left the project for other pursuits. Eric Atwell of the University of Leeds said they would update the project but it hasn't happened yet. If you use it regular I recommend downloading PRL as you never know when it may become unavailable.

[TellMeTheTruth]

Salam!

There is another question. Ibrahim was going to take life of his son and it is called "Sacrifice" while his son gave "his own life" - what it should be called? Is taking life of others is "Sacrifice" or giving one's own life to others is "Sacrifice"?



Peace!

[TellMeTheTruth]

Salam!

There is another question. Ibrahim was going to take life of his son and it is called "Sacrifice" while his son was going to gave "his own life" - what it should be called? Is taking life of others is "Sacrifice" or giving one's own life to others is "Sacrifice"?



Peace!

[TellMeTheTruth]

Salam!

In addition to the meanings of slaughtering, sacrificing, and splitting, the root "‎ذ ب ح‎" (dha-ba-ha) has a ‎few more nuanced meanings. Here are a couple of them:‎

ذَبِيحَةٌ‎ (dhabiha): Besides referring to a slaughtered animal or a sacrifice, it can also denote something ‎dedicated or offered for the sake of a higher purpose or devotion. It can encompass the concept of ‎dedication or consecration beyond literal slaughtering.‎

تَذْبِيحَةٌ‎ (tadbiha): This derived noun can signify the act of offering or dedicating oneself or something of ‎value in service to a cause, principle, or belief. It implies a willingness to sacrifice or dedicate oneself ‎for a greater purpose.‎

If we incorporate the meaning of dedication or offering into the interpretation of the ayah then, with ‎the added meaning, a possible literal interpretation of the verses could be:‎

‎"‎وَقَالَ إِنِّي ذَاهِبٌ إِلَىٰ رَبِّي سَيَهْدِينِ‎"‎
And he said: "Indeed, I am going to my Lord who will guide me soon."‎

‎"‎رَبِّ هَبْ لِي مِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ‎"‎
‎"O my Lord! Grant me from the righteous ones!"‎

‎"‎فَبَشَّرْنَاهُ بِغُلَامٍ حَلِيمٍ‎"‎
So We gave him good tidings of a forbearing boy.‎

‎"‎فَلَمَّا بَلَغَ مَعَهُ السَّعْيَ قَالَ يَا بُنَيَّ إِنِّي أَرَىٰ فِي الْمَنَامِ أَنِّي أَذْبَحُكَ فَانظُرْ مَاذَا تَرَىٰ‎"‎
And when he (the boy) reached the age of exertion, he (Ibrahim) said: "O my son! Indeed I have seen ‎in a dream that I am dedicating you (to Lord). So consider (the matter and let know) what do you ‎think?"‎

‎"‎قَالَ يَا أَبَتِ افْعَلْ مَا تُؤْمَرُ ۖ سَتَجِدُنِي إِن شَاءَ اللَّهُ مِنَ الصَّابِرِينَ‎"‎
He said: "O my father! Do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, among the patient ‎ones."‎

‎"‎فَلَمَّا أَسْلَمَا وَتَلَّهُ لِلْجَبِينِ‎"‎
So when they had both submitted and he (Ibrahim) raised with dignity,‎

‎"‎وَنَادَيْنَاهُ أَن يَا إِبْرَاهِيمُ‎"‎
And We called out to him that "O Ibrahim!"‎

‎"‎قَدْ صَدَّقْتَ الرُّؤْيَا ۚ إِنَّا كَذَٰلِكَ نَجْزِي الْمُحْسِنِينَ‎"‎
‎"You have already verified the vision. Indeed, like yourself, We reward the good-doers."‎

‎"‎إِنَّ هَٰذَا لَهُوَ الْبَلَاءُ الْمُبِينُ‎"‎
Indeed, this is the clear evaluation (test of abilities, traits etc. of someone).‎

‎"‎وَفَدَيْنَاهُ بِذِبْحٍ عَظِيمٍ‎"‎
And We redeemed him with (this) great dedication.‎

‎"‎وَتَرَكْنَا عَلَيْهِ فِي الْآخِرِينَ‎"‎
And We left his euology - in the later generations (to say): ‎

‎"‎سَلَامٌ عَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ‎"‎
"Peace be upon Ibrahim!‎"

‎"‎كَذَٰلِكَ نَجْزِي الْمُحْسِنِينَ‎"‎
Like yourself, We reward the good-doers.‎

‎"‎إِنَّهُ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا الْمُؤْمِنِينَ‎"‎
Indeed, he was among Our believing servants.‎

This interpretation incorporates the concept of dedication or offering as a possible meaning for the ‎verb "‎أَذْبَحُكَ‎" (adhbahuka) in the context of the dream and the father's vision. It suggests that the ‎father saw a dream or vision in which he perceived himself dedicating or offering his son for a higher ‎purpose. The son, in response, expresses his willingness to comply with the command and offers his ‎dedication and patience.‎

It is worth noting that child sacrifice to gods/idols was a well-known practice at the time of Ibrahim, ‎which was obviously considered as an evil practice. Note some examples for the practice of child ‎sacrifice in ancient civilizations such as the Canaanites, Carthaginians, and certain groups within ‎Mesopotamia.‎

For instance, in ancient Canaanite religious practices, particularly associated with the worship of the ‎deity Baal, child sacrifice was believed to be a way to appease or gain favor from the gods. It involved ‎offering one's own children, often the first-born, as a sacrificial act.‎

The Carthaginians, an ancient civilization in North Africa, were also known to have engaged in child ‎sacrifice. They worshipped the god Baal Hammon and would sacrifice infants or young children as part ‎of their religious rituals.‎

In ancient Mesopotamia, there is evidence of similar practices, particularly in relation to the worship of ‎certain deities such as the god Molech. Child sacrifice was viewed as a way to seek divine blessings or ‎protection.‎

I believe that Ibrahim was well-aware of these prohibited and immoral practices so he could not have ‎believed in a dream commanding him to sacrifice his own child. God does not command or endorse ‎evil deeds. The Quran clearly states that God is free from any imperfection or inconsistency in His ‎commands.‎

ٱلْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ وَسَلَٰمٌ عَلَىٰ عِبَادِهِ ٱلَّذِينَ ٱصْطَفَىٰٓ

Peace!‎