Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

peace ibn_a,

No offence taken. In fact, I like the way you present the counter argument.

You seem to have a wording preference for fidya, if so, fair enough. If you're claiming it cannot be a fidya then that is a different matter. If it is the latter I have not seen you present sufficient Quranic evidence for this stance.

...

Peace Wakas,

- Thanks for your constructive criticism, I will try to explain my view of what I underlined in the quote.

The verses concerning fidya in the Quran:

Tranlation: Muhammad Asad.
* other opinions.

----- fidya to free captives -----
2:85 And yet, it is you who slay one another and drive some of your own people from their homelands, aiding one another against them in sin and hatred; but if they come to you as captives, you ransom them - although the very [act of] driving them away has been made unlawful to you!. Do you, then, believe in some parts of the divine writ and deny the truth of other parts? What, then, could be the reward of those among you who do such things but ignominy in the life of this world and, on the Day of Resurrection, commitment to most grievous suffering? For God is not unmindful of what you do

47:4 NOW WHEN you meet [in war] those who are bent on denying the truth, smite their necks* until you overcome them fully, and then tighten their bonds; but thereafter [set them free,] either by an act of grace or against ransom, so that the burden of war may be lifted: thus [shall it be]. And [know that] had God so willed, He could indeed punish them [Himself]; but [He wills you to struggle] so as to test you [all] by means of one another. And as for those who are slain in God's cause, never will He let their deeds go to waste
* l-riqābi*  can also mean: captives.

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----- fidya to free onself from commandments/recommandations,  for valid reason -----
2:184 [fasting] during a certain number of days. But whoever of you is ill, or on a journey, [shall fast instead for the same] number of other days; and [in such cases] it is incumbent upon those who can afford it* to make sacrifice by feeding a needy person. And whoever does more good than he is bound to do does good unto himself thereby; for to fast is to do good unto yourselves - if you but knew it.
*yuteeqoonahu*  can also mean : hardship/difficulty/not have the strength for it.

2:196 AND PERFORM the pilgrimage and the pious visit [to Mecca] in honour of God; and if you are held back, give instead whatever offering you can easily afford. And do not shave your heads until the offering has been sacrificed; but he from among you who is ill or suffers from an ailment of the head shall redeem himself by fasting, or alms, or [any other] act of worship. And if you are hale and secure, then he who takes advantage of a pious visit before the [time of] pilgrimage shall give whatever offering he can easily afford; whereas he who cannot afford it shall fast for three days during the pilgrimage and for seven days after your return: that is, ten full [days]. All this relates to him who does not live near the Inviolable House of Worship. And remain conscious of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.

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----- fidya to free herself from her husband  -----
2:229 A divorce may be [revoked] twice, whereupon the marriage must either be resumed in fairness or dissolved in a goodly manner. And it is not lawful for you to take back anything of what you have ever given to your wives unless both [partners] have cause to fear that they may not be able to keep within the bounds set by God: hence, if you have cause to fear that the two may not be able to keep within the bounds set by God, there shall be no sin upon either of them for what the wife may give up [to her husband] in order to free herself. These are the bounds set by God; do not, then, transgress them: for they who transgress the bounds set by God-it is they, they who are evildoers!

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----- fidya to free oneself from punishment/suffering -----
3:91 Verily, as for those who are bent on denying the truth and die as deniers of the truth - not all the gold on earth could ever be their ransom. It is they for whom grievous suffering is in store; and they shall have none to succour them.

5:36 Verily, if those who are bent on denying the truth had all that is on earth, and twice as much, to offer as ransom from suffering on the Day of Resurrection, it would not be accepted from them: for grievous suffering awaits them.

10:54 And all human beings that have been doing evil's would surely, if they possessed all that is on earth, offer it as ransom [on Judgment Day]; and when they see the suffering [that awaits them], they will be unable to express their remorse. But judgment will be passed on them in all equity; and they will not be wronged.

13:18 of those who have responded to their Sustainer with a goodly response, and of those who did not respond to Him. [As for the latter,] if they possessed all that is on earth, and twice as much, they would surely offer it as ransom [on the Day of Judgment]: a most evil reckoning awaits them, and their goal is hell: and how evil a resting-place!

39:47 But if those who are bent on evildoing possessed all that is on earth, and twice as much, they would surely offer it as ransom from the awful suffering [that will befall them] on the Day of Resurrection: for, something with which they had not reckoned before will [by then] have been made obvious to them by God;

57: 15 "And so, no ransom shall be accepted today from you, and neither from those who were [openly] bent on denying the truth. Your goal is the fire: it is your [only] refuge - and how evil a journey's end!"

70:11 though they may be in one another's sight: [for,] everyone who was lost in sin will on that Day but desire to ransom himself from suffering at the price of his own children,
70:12   and of his spouse, and of his brother,
70:13   and of all the kinsfolk who ever sheltered him,
70:14   and of whoever [else] lives on earth, all of them - so that he could but save himself.

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----- fidya for ?? ----- in " the Abraham leaving scenario interpetation "
37:107 And We ransomed him with a tremendous sacrifice,

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If I missed something or made errors, please someone add or correct.



-In my view, fidya seems to be related to something negative, i.e. concerns people wo are in need for someone to do fidya for them (or need to do fidya for themselves), because they are in a situation (mentally and/or physically) in which they prefer not to be.

The fidya restores/improves the situation (mentally and/or physically) in which they were.

From the " Abraham leaving scenario interpetation ", I understand that  you relate fidya to something positive (or am I wrong?).
You say that " God    exchanged    Isaac/Ismael    for/with    a great/mighty sacrifice (i.e. the mighty/great deed Abraham did, by separating from his son), this is what was left in place of his son."


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

peace ibn_a,

....
The noun dhib'hin is only used once in Quran. I consider my take on it strong enough to allow for the possibility. I never said anywhere that my interpretation is validated by this or any other point. Please pay careful attention to my words.

As I said on this thread, I considered the various options, and found the view presented in my article to be the most cogent (i.e. has the least number of issues). If you disagree please let us know your view so we can weigh them up.

Consider my posts concerning your article more as feedback and as questions to better understand the reason for your interpretation.

[jkhan]

lol@proves

Let me help you out. Study and confirm the following, if able:

EVERY time prophets are mentioned it is ALWAYS in chronological* order
*we don't really know chronological order for certain but we can get a rough idea

As I mentioned in the thread I linked to, if one can confirm that then that is a decent argument for chronology. It would not "prove" it however.

Then let's not PROVE or CONFIRM anything.. let's just wander in confusion by keep arguing for centuries like the yester year scholars.. be it Ismail or Is'haq or Slaughter or Separation... what difference it makes... who cares...that's not my way...  You be in that mindset if you really want to be by saying lol to proofs or as what your statement sounds...... but I won't... at least I will ensure to my self with the time spent on this forum by having known other believers understanding, so it increases my belief and my knowledge... after all, the whole topic is only between 2 Sons not 20, only to pick one son out of it who involved in this story....that's all.. If we are unable to do that at least, then where we stand in our understanding of Quran...
Proving anything doesn't mean that everyone would or must accept it even how much it weighs towards one side... that's a well known fact.... Even anything is proven manifestly; only very minute number will pay attention to it.... They may be silent knowing what is right...So pretty obvious what is my intention here is to expose something which is hidden proofs for those who heed...let the reader go further in his or her own search....That's what I am up to and not to convince everyone who are firmly affixed on something else... that's impossible and useless effort... that won't happen .. never..
If this is the way and cannot prove anything in quran, then we don't have any right to say to those who follow Hadith apart from quran....coz.. what is proven is only within our knowledge and not within their acceptance..calling them based on our acceptance is merely an argument...not proof....
God guides with what is right, that cannot be proved by any human that God has guided such and such...But truth is always stand out from the falsehood... that's undeniable..

without confirming/proving anything in quran, how someone accept the quran and believe in God..

[jkhan]

Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha

Have we got answers to the topic?
Does the Quran Say......Yes / NO...
Did God tell?   ........  Yes / NO
Ibrahim to Sacrifice ? ........ Yes / NO
Sacrifice his Son?  ......... Yes / NO... if Yes.. which son?

So.... According to Topic... chronological order is very much relevant...so whatever we discussed is within the topic.. I didn't go anything away from the topic raised...

[Mazhar]

Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha

Have we got answers to the topic?
Does the Quran Say......Yes / NO...
Did God tell?   ........  Yes / NO
Ibrahim to Sacrifice ? ........ Yes / NO
Sacrifice his Son?  ......... Yes / NO... if Yes.. which son?

So.... According to Topic... chronological order is very much relevant...so whatever we discussed is within the topic.. I didn't go anything away from the topic raised...

What is the characteristic trait of each of two sons of Ibrahim alahissalam.

Which son was given by acceding to the prayer for grant of ONE son?

Which son was given unsolicited?

This will support the point of jkan.

[jkhan]

Salaam,


-In my view, fidya seems to be related to something negative, i.e. concerns people wo are in need for someone to do fidya for them (or need to do fidya for themselves), because they are in a situation (mentally and/or physically) in which they prefer not to be.

The fidya restores/improves the situation (mentally and/or physically) in which they were.

That's what it is.... What is ransomed? Delivering/ freeing someone from his her unpleasant situations.... What is the unpleasant thing here...? Slaughter.....
Why it is tremendous slaughter? Coz Ismail was human....

We ransomed him of a disastrous (azeem) slaughter.... That's how God helps and good doers....

I reiterated red highlighted your view from the beginning... But discarded and still hovering in it...
You well explained... Any normal person would, grasp it...

After all it is a ransom from God and would god take something from Ibrahim to ransom his son?  Normally for ransom and deliver something should be there but not, for God.. God ransomed /delivered...

[Iyyaka]

Salam,

Be careful not to distort the meaning of Allah's words to stick to your cognitive filter.
So let's try to let the text speaks..

[37:105] You have fulfilled the vision." So, this is how We reward the beneficent.
=> Abraham is described as "beneficent" because he did something that is charitable (and kill his own and only child is not a good-doear as i know!)
=> the root of the word ṣaddaqta/fulfilled-something also is using to mean the charity-due..This words refers to prove true by deeds and the use of the verbal form 2 (intensity and repetition) is without ambiguity
=> Pay attention to the word kadhālika/So that brings the consequence, the conclusion of the above.
[37:106] This was a clear hardship.
=> "clear": No ambiguity in the signfication of the vision
=> "hardship" = This word is used as parasynonym of the word "sacrifice"
[37:107] We redeemed him by means of an immense sacrifice.
=> "reeemed" = Ibn Faris says it means to give a thing in exchange of another, in order to save it (like a ransom), to protect it or to liberate it (as in 2:184 - no siyam in exchange of feeding a poor)
=> Abraham was very concerned in the Quran that his legacy would not be lost in later generations..
[37:108] We have perpetuate his memory in posterity..
=> The quran gives us what was the "reeemed": We have perpetuate his memory in posterity. (memory - to protect it) - this sentence is also use several times (to meditate) in this surah for other messengers...

[Wakas]

peace ibn_a,

The fidya restores/improves the situation (mentally and/or physically) in which they were.

So according to you, for example in 2:196, if someone is ill, they do fidya, e.g. by sawm, and they are in a better mental/physical situation?
No, more accurately, it improves their situation in the eyes of God.

From the " Abraham leaving scenario interpetation ", I understand that  you relate fidya to something positive (or am I wrong?).
You say that " God    exchanged    Isaac/Ismael    for/with    a great/mighty sacrifice (i.e. the mighty/great deed Abraham did, by separating from his son), this is what was left in place of his son."

I'm not sure how you came to the view a father leaving his son is something positive but if you meant positive in the eyes of God, i.e. he passed the test, then yes. You will note the use of azeem, it is a word with a nuance of grievous about it, to denote severity/significant, which again fits into my view.

[jkhan]

peace ibn_a,

So according to you, for example in 2:196, if someone is ill, they do fidya, e.g. by sawm, and they are in a better mental/physical situation?
No, more accurately, it improves their situation in the eyes of God.

Peace...

No Brother Waqas.. Don't grind it, it will become so complicated then...

2:196 in all general translations or even your special article translation...
Two CAUSES or REASONS and three OPTIONS...
CAUSES 2 = Mareed & Azan Min RasiHI....
OPTIONS 3 = Siyam / Sadaqa / Nusuki

Not necessary to carry out the entire OPTIONS for one CAUSE or both the CAUSES...for instance... Mareed, then siyam is beyond probability ... so go for another option which is possible...If Azan Min RasiHi then better Siyam, etc..
Here CAUSE which prompted to FIDYA are unpleasant or Ibn-a indicated (Physically or mentally not preferred).. so opted suitable one FIDYA out of three Options..
Why you give the impossible OPTION for the CAUSE to substantiate your claim.. as you stated.. if one Sick then Option Fast...Even in prescribed fasting when sick not recommended to fast..that's bizarre example

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

That's what it is.... What is ransomed? Delivering/ freeing someone from his her unpleasant situations.... What is the unpleasant thing here...? Slaughter.....
Why it is tremendous slaughter? Coz Ismail was human....

We ransomed him of a disastrous (azeem) slaughter.... That's how God helps and good doers....

I reiterated red highlighted your view from the beginning... But discarded and still hovering in it...
You well explained... Any normal person would, grasp it...

After all it is a ransom from God and would god take something from Ibrahim to ransom his son?  Normally for ransom and deliver something should be there but not, for God.. God ransomed /delivered...

Peace jkhan,


Although I can partially agree with some of your responses to the 10 points raised by Wakas,
but I do not think that: 

Wa fadaynahu bi dhibhin atheem    وفدينه بذبح عظيم

can mean: We ransomed him of a disastrous (azeem) slaughter.... ,

if I did correctly understand what you mean.


If you were right, I think that the word to use would be : من  min  dhibhin atheem.

The ransom/fidya is with dhibhin atheem not from dhibhin atheem

Perhaps that more knowledgeable members can correct or confirm?


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

peace ibn_a,

So according to you, for example in 2:196, if someone is ill, they do fidya, e.g. by sawm, and they are in a better mental/physical situation?
No, more accurately, it improves their situation in the eyes of God.

I'm not sure how you came to the view a father leaving his son is something positive but if you meant positive in the eyes of God, i.e. he passed the test, then yes. You will note the use of azeem, it is a word with a nuance of grievous about it, to denote severity/significant, which again fits into my view.

Peace Wakas,

I will try to respond later, God willing.