peace jkhan, all,
Thanks for replying. I have discussed with many people and it is common for people to simply avoid the questions so it's good to see some actual response. I did find your replies verbose so I have summarised your replies below:
1) what relevance, if any, is there for Quran to mention his son reached the age of striving/working with him? [37:102]
Reason: in my Abraham leaving scenario, it makes perfect sense because it is telling us the son had reached a somewhat independent age, i.e. able to fend for himself.
No relevance cited.
2) when Abraham asks "...look what you see?" his son seems to automatically assume it is a command when he says "...do what you are commanded...". Do you agree? If not, please say why.
You explained they (Abraham and son) took it as a command but it was not a command (or test) from God, even though you admit the dream was from God. This raises further issues such as God sending a disturbing dream to Abraham for no apparent reason.
3) The future particle "sa" occurs over 100 times in Quran. Can you provide one example of usage which matches how you claim it is used here, i.e. what comes after particle "sa" refers to an ongoing future activity that occurs prior to what came before particle "sa"?
Let me clarify, here is structure of the Arabic: ABC <future particle sa> XYZ
My view is XYZ occurs in the future, i.e. after ABC.Your view is XYZ occurs prior to ABC or XYZ occurs until ABC takes place.
Cites 28:27, which possibly works depending on how one interprets it:
1) 28:27 means Moses would marry one of his daughters and go on to fulfill the condition set ---> does not work as a qualifying comparable example
2) 28:27 means Moses would fulfill the request then after that marry a daughter ---> does work
I haven't studied it in detail to see if we can glean from Quran which is meant but the flow suggests (1) is more likely.
4) can you provide a Classical Arabic dictionary reference which states the meaning of the verb TaLLa can mean what you take it to mean and can be done in a gentle/soft/willing manner? i.e. without force.
Reason: the primary meaning of this definition is to throw down / make one prostrate / hold down / wrestle them down etc but Quran states both submitted so the action was willingly, i.e. no force needed.
No reference provided. Until proven otherwise, your meaning of "TaLLa" inherently implies with force and this contradicts Quran when it says they both submitted willingly.
5) can you provide an example elsewhere in Quran in which God rewards us/someone for what they were about to do but did not do.
Reason: stating "like thus We reward..." [37:105, 110] implies an exemplar, if so, where are the other examples, or where such a principle is mentioned.
You were able to show this phrase may refer to general aspects and may not need a specific good deed to be mentioned in context, which is a fair point. Even so, it would have been nice to cement your understanding with a specific example from Quran, if such an example exists.
6) can you provide another example in Quran wherein it states someone did X (e.g. perfect verb) but what is meant is they intended to do X.
Reason: you take "...when they both had submitted..." in 37:103 as submitted in intention only (i.e. not actually done the slaughter). Similar case with "...Surely you have believed/confirmed..." in 37:105, i.e. technically he hasn't confirmed it yet, i.e. it is intention only.
Note: perfect verbs are used thousands of times in Quran.
Claims I have misunderstood intention. No example from Quran given.
7) preposition "li" occurs over 2000 times in Quran. Please provide clear examples of it meaning "upon" as you take it to mean in 37:103 (i.e. upon his forehead).
No example from Quran given.
8.) please explain why Quran describes the sacrifice/dhibhin in 37:107 as great/mighty/azeem?
Jkhan quotes: "disastrous/great(great in the bad aspect) sacrifice", "something of unpleasant, evil oriented Azeem...Same way God absolutely delivered Abraham's Son form a Azeem (Great) grievous Sacrifice.", "He was ransomed of a Horrible Sacrifice "
Your interpretation fails according to the Arabic: "exchange/ransom" means to swap A with/for B, i.e. swap son for/with something else, NOT save him from something. Simply ask yourself what was the son replaced with? Then let us know.
9) If you consider killing of an innocent child an evil act and you consider God was simply testing Abraham but was always going to stop him before he actually did it, is there any other example similar to this in Quran (i.e. God commanding or condoning an evil act)?
No example cited.
Jkhan quotes: "So, we can naturally deduce that Allah WOULDN'T COMMAND Evil, Immoral, Hateful act "
"Dreams are from God according to Quran... don't they... But are the dreams(words used Mana/Ru'ya) literal in any of those occasion? NO"
"Problem with Ibrahim is coz he took it as COMMAND and LITERAL without any command from God while no dream is literal"
"Ibrahim forgot that killing is Evil and blinded and believed the dream in its literal aspect"
You admit "Yousuf (Specialist of Interpreting dreams)" but claim Abraham (and his son) were confused/wrong, despite no indication of this in Quran and bear in mind 12:6
10) how do you reconcile Moses objecting to the killing of an innocent boy [18:74] whereas Abraham and his son did not?
Jkhan quotes: "entirely different scenario", "Do you see the difference...coz Ibrahim was confused", "Just coz Ibrahim got one thing wrong", "but Ibrahim didn't verify and failed"
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It seems a core difference between our understandings is that you consider Abraham (and his son) to be wrong/mistaken in this story, whereas I do not. I consider my view befitting their status in Quran. An interesting question to ponder will be does Quran always highlight when a prophet/messenger errs, because if so your view is in more trouble.
You say dream is from God AND dream is not literal, which are two of my core points so you agree with that at least.
