Author Topic: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha  (Read 4225 times)

Iyyaka

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #70 on: September 30, 2019, 10:24:40 AM »


At least observe some of the stories presented in the same chapter with such identical phrases.. “” Thus (We) reward the Good-doers “” ~~~~~ “ We left for him among later generations”” ~~~~~

These are regular typical phrases used in this chapter not only for Ibrahim’s story… and in my understanding I see the stories are Ddelivering the messengers + the people from some Great Disasters (either from God’s side or peoples’ or even self – all three involved)… after saving from such disaster God uses the above phrases here and there…very fair comments above are… Aren’t they?

Even .. in the same stories Ibrahim has got two stories apart from the topic.. that is Ibrahim being put in fire and he was delivered / saved from that great disaster… Your story doesn’t tally with the flow of Quranic intent.. Is it?

Salam Jkhan,
Good remark.
You will find more informations here https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610603.30 (First and last post)
Peace
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

jkhan

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #71 on: September 30, 2019, 09:32:08 PM »
Salam Jkhan,
Good remark.
You will find more informations here https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610603.30 (First and last post)
Peace

Salam Brother Iyyaka....

I was out of action for last 6 to 7 months with freeminds... so i missed many... I read only very significant topics.. this is important... i will go through.. thank you for sharing ...


Peace Brother Waqas…

You emphasized that word Manam astonished you and it is literal not mandatory interpretation…. While Al Ru’ya need further elaboration… Only two places real Manam (i.e. dream) occurs.. one is pertinent to caption and only other occasion is the dream of Prophet Mohamed 8:43.. I am afraid you got it erroneous…My simple question is; any of the Quran explained Manam or Ru’ya Literal? All the Ru’ya needed interpretation (that we comply) and no such Ru’ya was a command even the dream of the King of Yousuf saw … Was it a command?.. it was a good sign… No Ru’ya was Literal (simply explaining no one took the dream as in it’s own nature, like Ibrahim took) Got it??..
Now lets turn to Manam… out of two one is Mohamed’s dream… which God says … Allah showed it to Mohamed (all quranic dreams Allah showed… that’s why they were interpreted and it happened)… So these dreams in fact from God.. Question is, was it a command? … Was it LITERAL ? YES or NO… No.. the dream was not a command neither Literal…coz what Mohamed was shown is something and what in the end happened is different … so it can’t be literal… Mohamed didn’t perceive the dream as literal and didn’t take any action to increase the numbers according to dream..…

Why exception to Ibrahim’s dream? Why his dream literal ? since he is the only person who took either manam or Ru’ya as literal….that’s his disastrous decision which in the end Favored and delivered since he was a muhsinun (good doer) and not always God would do such to every good doer…Remember non of the human being is commanded in quran to take any of our dream as literal… we will have no clue what the dreams are all about since we don’t have true interpreters of them… but we may at one point of time may come to know what was the meaning of such and such with the time if it happens..

No COMMANDMENT through dreams be it Manam or Ru’ya… God’s system will not change that’s common to any messenger….

17:77 [That is Our] established way (Sunnah) for those We had sent before you of Our Messengers; and you will not find in Our way any alteration.

Wakas

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #72 on: October 01, 2019, 01:25:45 AM »
peace jkhan,

In your above post you asked 7 questions (i.e. question mark at end of sentence). I kindly ask you to come up with 10 questions and number them, then present them. Each question should contain one point/issue. As I mentioned before, please try and be clear and concise.

I was thinking if it's simply a matter of each of us listing 10 questions, then we respond, then summarising, I guess we could contain it in this thread. The original reason I suggested a separate thread (albeit linked from this one) was not to clutter this thread. I will work on my 10 questions and present them here shortly, GW.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Mohammed.

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #73 on: October 06, 2019, 08:04:45 AM »
salaam all,

37:105 “…Indeed like thus We reward the righteous/good-doers.”
I think the reward mentioned here is the call of approval/acknowledgement/appreciation from God (such a call from the creator itself is a great reward that lasts the whole lifetime).

This story reminds us, whatever thing that we have here is not ours -our life, happiness, partner, children, wealth etc. everything is only because of God.
Enjoy life without exceeding the limit. We should never forget what we are. And the creator is able, to give us much higher levels/means of satisfaction/happiness.

“The life of this world is not except the deceit's/temptation's enjoyment” -3:185, 8:28, 6:32, 3:14, 4:77 etc.
Abraham knew this. He was a muslim.

Life is simple & interesting, for those who are certain about their creator.
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself-17:36.
"Inform My servants that I am the Forgiver, the Merciful. And that My punishment is a painful retribution." [15:49-50]

Wakas

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #74 on: October 07, 2019, 09:21:02 AM »
peace jkhan, all,

First set of 5 out of 10 questions:

With regard to your understanding (which is similar to the common/traditional understanding):

1) what relevance, if any, is there for Quran to mention his son reached the age of striving/working with him? [37:102]

2) when Abraham asks "...look what you see?" his son seems to automatically assume it is a command when he says "...do what you are commanded...". Do you agree? If not, please say why.

3) The future particle "sa" occurs over 100 times in Quran. Can you provide one example of usage which matches how you claim it is used here, i.e. what comes after particle "sa" refers to an ongoing future activity that occurs prior to what came before particle "sa"?
Let me clarify, here is structure of the Arabic: ABC <future particle sa> XYZ
My view is XYZ occurs in the future, i.e. after ABC
Your view is XYZ occurs prior to ABC or XYZ occurs until ABC takes place.
Ref: http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(37:102:21)

4) can you provide a classical arabic dictionary reference which states the meaning of the verb TLL can mean what you take it to mean and can be done in a gentle/soft/willing manner? i.e. without force.
Reason: the primary meaning of this definition is to throw down / make one prostrate / hold down / wrestle them down etc , i.e. not willingly, but Quran states both submitted so the action was willingly, i.e. no force needed).
Ref: http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=tll#(37:103:3

5) can you provide some examples elsewhere in Quran in which God rewards us/someone for what they were about to do but did not do.
Reason: stating "like thus We reward..." implies an exemplar, if so, where are the other examples, or where such a principle is mentioned.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

jkhan

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #75 on: October 07, 2019, 09:17:45 PM »
Dear Brother Waqas….

Let me correct you about my personal belief and understanding compared with Conventional Belief…
~~~~ Dream was from God and Ibrahim CONFIRMED it  and attempted to SLAUGHTER HIS SON (accepted as Ismail), as they both adjudged the dream as downright COMMAND from God to accomplish…. God Accepted it and STOPPED it by REPLACING with an ANIMAL SACRIFICE (Slaughter) and Ibrahim was rewarded coz he CONFIRMED the Dream and REWARDED coz Animal slaughtering was brought into religion as  rites to be practiced.. That practice continues for ages now…~~~~
This is my conventional understanding learned from society verbally and that was accepted in our society as of my knowledge…

But My Quranic Understanding is UTTERLY unique to above other than what is in actual fact written in Quran.. I anticipate you are transparent of my comprehension if you have time to read my threads in this very caption……It’s not similar… though I accept what Ibrahim attempted was to slaughter his son which resembles the conventional acceptance not coz they accept but that’s what I possess with my current knowledge (how many quranic meaning to date we resemble with conventional understanding, that’s harmless)..But there is big day light between my understanding and conventional concocted stories which have no apparent evidence in the verses of Quran…
Pls answer to my questions in my previous threads to answer your 05 set of queries out of 10 meaningfully…God Will! I respond to your questions asap.. Dear other members you are most welcome to give your thoughts and responses to Brother Waqas’s questions and it is not confined between me and Waqas…Pls be with Quran and your most up to date understanding merely… Aim is to clarify and to resort to grasp the ultimate very meaning of the verses…

I need clarification..and not confusion….

~~~~why need ambiguity while quran itself claim it is not ambiguous~~~~

Iyyaka

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #76 on: October 07, 2019, 10:20:19 PM »
peace jkhan, all,

4) can you provide a classical arabic dictionary reference which states the meaning of the verb TLL can mean what you take it to mean and can be done in a gentle/soft/willing manner? i.e. without force.
Reason: the primary meaning of this definition is to throw down / make one prostrate / hold down / wrestle them down etc , i.e. not willingly, but Quran states both submitted so the action was willingly, i.e. no force needed).
Ref: http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=tll#(37:103:3
Salam Wakas and all,

Just NO (in red above).
you raise some points with which I agree but we will not understand this passage as long as the Muslims will believe that the root TLL, in its first and Semitic sense, means: throw down / make one prostrate / wrestle them down etc. It is a lexical entry that aims to allow to stick to the official story.
I have already explained its meaning in other posts.

Peace
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

Wakas

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #77 on: October 10, 2019, 08:32:10 AM »
peace jkhan, all,

In case I was not clear, let me clarify. I will not answer any of your questions unless they are numbered. Please bring your 10 strongest questions/objections, and I will bring mine, so readers can weigh up the evidence and make up their own minds.

Original article: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

First 5 questions (out of 10): https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610747.msg426798#msg426798

6) can you provide another example in Quran wherein it states someone did X (e.g. perfect verb) but what is meant is they intended to do X.
Reason: you take "...when they both had submitted..." in 37:103 as submitted in intention only (i.e. not actually done the slaughter). Similar case with "...Surely you have believed/confirmed..." in 37:105, i.e. technically they haven't confirmed it yet, i.e. it is intention only.

7)  preposition "li" occurs over 2000 times in Quran. Please provide clear examples of it meaning "upon" as you take it to mean in 37:103 (i.e. upon his forehead).

8.) please explain why Quran describes the sacrifice/dhibhin in 37:107 as great/mighty/azeem?

9) If you consider killing of an innocent child an evil act and you consider God was simply testing Abraham but was always going to stop him before he actually did it, is there any other example similar to this in Quran (i.e. God commanding or condoning an evil act)? 

10) how do you reconcile Moses objecting to the killing of an innocent boy [18:74] whereas Abraham and his son did not?
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

jkhan

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #78 on: October 10, 2019, 08:54:12 PM »
Peace Waqas… and the rest..

I wish, had you answered my questions though they are not numbered… But I won’t beg..As you prefer.. no compulsion.. Let me answer one by one in convenient time not to complicate anyone.. And this seems debate will go on…pls others participate....for the sake of clarification.. who knows to whom God has given the understanding pure and still keep silent..

QUESTION NO. 10 : in fact 18:74 is entirely a different scenario to what Abrahim and his son’s story presented in quran with much limited verses…

The boy which was killed by the companion of Mosa, God interpreted to us saying the boy will become a tyrant and will be a huge impact to parents in the future.. though it didn’t happen in reality though judge based on reality (i.e. what we did)… But God knows future and the character of each soul coz He is the Creator of even a soul…He knows to answer to that boy when resurrected..That’s God’s part..
But Ibrahim’s case Killing or sacrifice didn’t in fact take place, for Ibrahim to claim AFTERWARDS such as “why did I do this” etc etc.. Mosa said AFTERWARDS, I mean after killing the boy and not BEFORE…In addition to that, Abraham merely saw a dream and he himself interpreted literally and stepped into business.. But What Mosa saw was real incidents which Mosa needed further interpretation though he was eyewitness to all incidents..
Mosa’s anger and claim as pure human being within the frame of what he was taught by God through His book is absolutely fine… Coz no one is authorized to kill another human being unless to certain condition…But Mosa’s companion on that Journey knew extraordinary concealed aspects of current and future incidents which normally a messenger won’t possess… God claim he was a pure … 18:65-66 “And they found a SERVANT from among Our SERVANTS to whom we had given MERCY from us and had taught him from Us a [certain] KNOWLEDGE. Moses said to him, "May I follow you on [the condition] that you TEACH me from WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT of sound judgment?" unfortunately Musa was not given that knowledge..

So, the incredible person is purely taught by God and would act according to what he was taught… I prefer you compare this intelligent person with Prophet Yousuf… He was taught of interpretation… How many, we have no idea.. God explained only a few.. But we can assume he would have interpreted a many that’s why he was taught.. He can’t keep away when his people query about their dreams while he was given the authority and knowledge to do so…

In the same manner Mosa’s Companion or rather Teacher has been blessed and he was one of those Servants of many whom Allah merciful and taught knowledge(significant coz even Musa not given)…. So with his impeccable knowledge he did what he did, even to the extent of killing a boy who was innocent TO THAT POINT.. But being a Messenger whom even God directly spoke to did not know what Teacher knew.. So Mosa was limited… Why can’t we assume Ibrahim was limited with knowledge of future unless he was manifestly informed through an Angel Messenger… Then only He can take that as COMMAND… but this incredible person never waited for any command from God to kill in fact an innocent boy …He didn’t see dreams to act… He acted with what he was taught.. Not even asked the INNOCENT BOY or PARENTS like Abrahim asked his Son.. Do you see the difference…coz Ibrahim was confused…

jkhan

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #79 on: October 11, 2019, 04:00:19 AM »
QUESTION NO. 09 :

07:28 “ …." Say, "Indeed, Allah does not order IMMORALITY. Do you say about Allah that which you do not know?"
4:22  “ …….. ……. Indeed, it was an immorality and HATEFUL [to Allah] and was EVIL AS A WAY.


The reason I presented above random verses out of many to represent what in fact Allah doesn’t like … Allah doesn’t like Immorality, Hatful things, and Evil ways…
So, we can naturally deduce that Allah WOULDN’T COMMAND Evil, Immoral, Hateful act…… Killing a son is manifestly Evil, Immoral, Hateful act on anyone’s sight, unless for just reason …Dreams are from God according to Quran… don’t they… But are the dreams(words used Mana/Ru’ya) literal in any of those occasion? NO..refute with quranic support..(I explained in previous threads)
If in fact Allah doesn’t like evil and killing is obviously unethical, Then why did Allah show the dream which prompted Ibrahim to commit a disaster?..Is God Culprit or Ibrahim? Lets see.. we are human and no difference to Ibrahim as human other than his quality… so we see dreams… don’t we? Can we act upon it LITERALLY… No.. that’s suicidal and simply crazy… according to number of dreams I have seen in my life…if I act based on that with explicit or LITERAL picture of the dream… but who has power to show us dreams? Allah… But all dreams are not to be taken as part and parcel of our life to act upon it (no instruction from God). To act we have book/s God revealed and God gifted perception..But  some dream/s may give you a sign, foretelling, and mostly would be untraceable without we take any action on them… Ibrahim would have seen many a dreams before and after this particular dream… would he have taken any action on them… simply like us…He was a human.. that’s what messengers said, “”we are human like you””… I wonder.. Most dreams we don’t even remember what we saw last night…
According to quran, None of those who saw the dream knew what was it till it was interpreted…None was even capable enough to interpret the kings dream except yousuf even though king questioned those who surrounded him..King didn’t ask all the dreams but only ONE…. None has capacity…though people interpret… no verification… it will be just blind acceptation (Coz it needs teaching from God, that makes huge difference).. but not in the case of Yousuf…He was taught…When ? probably when he was matured…He saw a dream when he was a kid… He didn’t know what was it only referring to his father, but he didn’t interpret anything to him… But Yousuf remembered the dream for his life time…. In the end Yousuf explained to his father when his dream came true after ages,… not the literal… So, his father being a prophet knew it from Yousuf (Specialist of Interpreting dreams)… looking at the numbers in dream (11 stars and sun and moon, even yousuf’s brothers would have guessed something had yousuf disclosed) but exact picture is given to Yousuf…

Ibrahim was instant and gullible..Problem with Ibrahim is coz he took it as COMMAND and LITERAL without any command from God while no dream is literal, and he discarded fact that God would never order IMMORAL / HATEFUL / EVIL acts….He took a dream real which needed to be put junk… (note :Mosa being a Messenger (so did Ibrahim) said while the boy was killed and it was Evil, but Ibrahim forgot that killing is Evil and blinded and believed the dream in its literal aspect and attempted, contrasting difference)That is an advice to all believers that we can’t take dreams literally and apply to our lives hoping that God speaks to us… but still God indicates to us that God only has the power to show dreams and some dreams are meaningful if it is interpreted correctly(while God’s book/s are still being interpreted in various ways, how to interpret dreams)… No dreams are COMMANDS of God.. that’s the other advice by this story..
Further… God didn’t test Ibrahim with the dream itself… But Ibrahim took the dream and believed literal and attempted to implement and that became TEST on Ibrahim personally coz of his own decision at his own will…(Allah only showed the dream as he shows to anyone) And that is good advices to all believers not to take dreams literal and act upon it even you see any dreams (but act on interpretation is fine.. but whom to trust)… If we take dream literal and act upon it, then we would most probably go against quranic commands….
By the way…Brother Waqas…As you may aware,,, Innocent in our eyes and innocent in God’s vision is different (coz we see hardly only visible part but God sees invisible part as well)… In fact Ibrahim’s son (boy) was innocent to deserve it while outstandingly he was a pure servant of God…. On the other hand What Mosa’s teacher killed is innocent as well since he was a boy who never killed another… but he was not Pure servant of God and will not be in the future like Ibrahim’s son… That God’s invisible knowledge.. That’s why God kill babies and children in natural disaster…. Even prophet Nuh said, if you let them live, they will only beget evil bound 71:27.. So being a messenger Prophet Nuh didn’t mind babies being killed and didn’t even wanted them to beget..Coz evil is written in their destiny..
So dear.. what Ibrahim tried to kill and what Teacher killed is completely different.. Ibrahim cannot do it and God won’t allow to do it, That’s why God stopped on the spot… Coz God had different plan with the one Ibrahim tried to kill in the future…. Ibrahim cannot change the future… Future known God won’t allow Ibrahim to kill coz his son was destined by His will to live in the future and become a Messenger.. That was God’s plan.. how come Ibrahim stop God’s plan…
While God’s plan for already slain boy is to be replaced by a pure person in the future.. how then Mosa stop him being killed just claiming how you kill an innocent …

If it is meant isolation of father and son as you claim in your understanding, and was a pure command from God, why God need the command to be sent through medium of Dream? What’s the big deal in it? Will Ibrahim not going to accept, if it was sent through a messenger and do the same set of proceedings before say farewell… in any case he would have done it and that also saying “I have been commanded”… what difference it makes for us as guidance being the message from Dream rather than other ways…. By Message being through dream make Ibrahim so special in accepting and doing it? After all, his son said, “do what you are commanded” So even the message came through a messenger, his son would have said the same… Then no need all of sudden a messenger to come from God while they surrendered and ready for the act and say “O! Ibrahim, you believed the dream”… instead “O! Ibrahim you followed the Command” Come on.. does it make sense.. Messengers receive loads of commands to implement… does God always react this way when they are about to implement and further say thus rewarded…