Author Topic: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha  (Read 19247 times)

jkhan

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #150 on: October 23, 2019, 02:43:31 AM »
Salaam,



Peace jkhan,


Although I can partially agree with some of your responses to the 10 points raised by Wakas,
but I do not think that: 

Wa fadaynahu bi dhibhin atheem    وفدينه بذبح عظيم

can mean: We ransomed him of a disastrous (azeem) slaughter.... ,

if I did correctly understand what you mean.


If you were right, I think that the word to use would be : من  min  dhibhin atheem.

The ransom/fidya is with dhibhin atheem not from dhibhin atheem

Perhaps that more knowledgeable members can correct or confirm?


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

I understand you very well and the way you present…
But brother, do you really think “FROM” is must to confirm the meaning of the verse.. or have you got any other meaning for “Bi” … it is not merely meaning “WITH / IN / BY” .. But, I hope you know that… so try to match the right option of “Bi”…it could be “IN REPLACEMENT OF/FOR”

such as " We ransomed him in replacement of / for Slaughter Azeem (great/tremendous)

Mazhar

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #151 on: October 23, 2019, 07:32:51 AM »
I understand you very well and the way you present…
But brother, do you really think “FROM” is must to confirm the meaning of the verse.. or have you got any other meaning for “Bi” … it is not merely meaning “WITH / IN / BY” .. But, I hope you know that… so try to match the right option of “Bi”…it could be “IN REPLACEMENT OF/FOR”

such as " We ransomed him in replacement of / for Slaughter Azeem (great/tremendous)

Azeem is second element of Adjectival Phrase. And the Prepositional phrase is in the place of second object of preceding verb. A person is redeemed or absolved by some instrument which is mentioned by using Be.

The preposition: بـِ  designates contiguity in its broadest sense. It has a wide range of uses including spatiotemporal, instrumental and manner adverbial. It is used for the following purposes:

1) [للإلصاقِ] For connectivity;

2) [للإِسْتَعَانَةِ] For assistance; instrument

3) [لِلتَّعدِيَةِ] For making a verb transitive;

4) [لِلظَّرفِيَّةِ] For an adverbial meaning;

5) [لِلمُصَاحَبَةِ] For accompaniment.

6) [لِلمُابَلَةِ]  For requital; and

7) [زائِدَةٌ]  Extraneous; according to a rule for the negated predicate; also in interrogation.

http://haqeeqat.pk/1.BismilAllah.htm

jkhan

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #152 on: October 23, 2019, 05:29:08 PM »
Azeem is second element of Adjectival Phrase. And the Prepositional phrase is in the place of second object of preceding verb. A person is redeemed or absolved by some instrument which is mentioned by using Be.

The preposition: بـِ  designates contiguity in its broadest sense. It has a wide range of uses including spatiotemporal, instrumental and manner adverbial. It is used for the following purposes:

1) [للإلصاقِ] For connectivity;

2) [للإِسْتَعَانَةِ] For assistance; instrument

3) [لِلتَّعدِيَةِ] For making a verb transitive;

4) [لِلظَّرفِيَّةِ] For an adverbial meaning;

5) [لِلمُصَاحَبَةِ] For accompaniment.

6) [لِلمُابَلَةِ]  For requital; and

7) [زائِدَةٌ]  Extraneous; according to a rule for the negated predicate; also in interrogation.

http://haqeeqat.pk/1.BismilAllah.htm

Thank you Brother Mazhr.... I received this link from one member... It elaborates what, Mazhr submitted above...

http://revivearabic.blogspot.com/2016/12/arabic-particles-learn-arabic-preposition-bi.html

I know all of you refer dictionaries...So can refer... 'bi' has various meaning n application....

Iyyaka

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #153 on: October 23, 2019, 10:29:59 PM »
Salam,

Be careful not to distort the meaning of Allah's words to stick to your cognitive filter.
So let's try to let the text speaks..

[37:105] You have fulfilled the vision." SO, this is how We reward the beneficent.
=> Abraham is described as "beneficent" because he did something that is charitable (and kill his own and only child is not a good-doear as i know!)
=> the root of the word ṣaddaqta/fulfilled-something also is using to mean the charity-due..This words refers to prove true by deeds and the use of the verbal form 2 (intensity and repetition) is without ambiguity
=> Pay attention to the word kadhālika/So that brings the consequence, the conclusion of the above.
[37:106] This was a clear hardship.
=> "clear": No ambiguity in the signfication of the vision
=> "hardship" = This word is used as parasynonym of the word "sacrifice"
[37:107] We redeemed him by means of an immense sacrifice.
=> "reeemed" = Ibn Faris says it means to give a thing in exchange of another, in order to save it (like a ransom), to protect it or to liberate it (as in 2:184 - no siyam in exchange of feeding a poor)
=> Abraham was very concerned in the Quran that his legacy would not be lost in later generations..
[37:108] We have perpetuate his memory in posterity..
=> The quran gives us what was the "reeemed": We have perpetuate his memory in posterity. (memory - to protect it) - this sentence is also use several times (to meditate) in this surah for other messengers...

jkhan

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #154 on: October 23, 2019, 11:44:08 PM »
I understand you very well and the way you present…
But brother, do you really think “FROM” is must to confirm the meaning of the verse.. or have you got any other meaning for “Bi” … it is not merely meaning “WITH / IN / BY” .. But, I hope you know that… so try to match the right option of “Bi”…it could be “IN REPLACEMENT OF/FOR”

such as " We ransomed him in replacement of / for Slaughter Azeem (great/tremendous)

Peace........................

I wonder why all the translations in corpus.quran used ‘OF’ for verse no 37:01 for word “”Bi”…
FaBasharnaHu BiGhulam Haleem -  So We gave Him OF a boy Forbearing…
All used “”OF”” instead of any other preposition for “”Bi””
But for 37:107 used word “WITH” WaFadainaHu BiZibhin Azeem – definitely there must be grammatical rules..but it depend how they understood the verse to apply (with or of)
It shows translators have found that “Bi” gives the English meaning “”OF”” as well…if it was a critical word and not befit to quran we could have negated all the translators to suit quran, but this is a simple preposition of “Bi”…so they can’t go wrong in most probability depending on the verse 37:101…
Instead of “Min” the word “Bi” in  verse no. 37:107 really befits to the incident took place…even grammatically… either use “OF, Because of, in replacement for, etc… I don’t think the word “Min” (from) should be there to get the exact meaning… Coz incident (slaughtering didn’t take place…we should differentiate first the meaning and usage of  “OF” and “FROM” in a nutshell..…
*I was fortunately saved OF an accident….in fact didn’t face/involve the accident, but could have been unless for some reason……….
** I was fortunately saved FROM the accident… in fact did face/involved in the accident, but nothing happened though others have faced with unfortunate outcome of the incident..
Or else.. when knowing clearly.. for example
* Pudding is made OF milk… very obvious that milk was the main ingredient and by the smell or by the look..
** Pudding is made FROM Sea Grass … not so obvious what are the ingredients, unless explained by the one who made it  or with some other way..
Thus, if in case Ibrahim was slaughtering some others and till reach to his son then he was saved… if that is the scenario then the usage of “FROM” is much appropriate coz he was saved FROM terrible Slaughtering taking place prior to his son’s slaughter.. God knows, which word to use and what is used is in quran that remains….....let’s trace what actually God meant by what HE used…that’s it…
How far my explanation befits to the situation, I don’t know, but I don’t see anything wrong in the wording of Quran to mean that “We ransomed him of tremendous Slaughter”… After all something happened between Ibrahim and his son… let’s get close to trace what happened. .In my side I have furnished the evidences to the extreme end within quran which I never knew prior to research honestly… I learned a lot from my own research and from others here in this topic….

Mazhar

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #155 on: October 24, 2019, 01:49:48 AM »
Quote
I wonder why all the translations in corpus.quran used ‘OF’ for verse no 37:01 for word “”Bi”…
FaBasharnaHu BiGhulam Haleem -  So We gave Him OF a boy Forbearing…
All used “”OF”” instead of any other preposition for “”Bi””

Root: ف د ى needs to be studied. The instrument by which one is ransomed or released/absolved of some obligation, which may be forced one or voluntarily undertaken, it is mentioned by preposition Bi.

This Root occurs 13 times. See all ayahs

http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/(1093).htm

ibn_a

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #156 on: October 24, 2019, 08:26:43 AM »

Salaam,


peace ibn_a,

So according to you, for example in 2:196, if someone is ill, they do fidya, e.g. by sawm, and they are in a better mental/physical situation?
No, more accurately, it improves their situation in the eyes of God.

...

Peace Wakas,

See it this way:
My view is that (some) believers may feel guilty (mental situation), and/or feel excluded for not being able to do ( the) (some) commandments/recommandations, so giving them other options, could help remove/Reduce their guilty feelings, and/or feeling excluded --->  restore/improve their (mental) situation.




...

I'm not sure how you came to the view a father leaving his son is something positive but if you meant positive in the eyes of God, i.e. he passed the test, then yes. You will note the use of azeem, it is a word with a nuance of grievous about it, to denote severity/significant, which again fits into my view.
red in quote: mine.


peace ibn_a,

As I mentioned previously HERE the pronoun "hu" could refer to either Abraham or his son. In my understanding it doesn't seem to make a difference.

Thus, it would be either:
1) exchanged him (the son) with a mighty sacrifice, i.e. replaced the son with a mighty sacrifice Abraham made (by separating from his son)
2) exchanged him (Abraham) with a mighty sacrifice, i.e. replaced Abraham with a mighty sacrifice the son made (by separating from his father)
Interestingly, such an event would have effected both, so each one will have experienced the above. This mighty deed was taken into account by God and he/they were rewarded as a result.

I take it as a play on words as mentioned in my article, quote:

It is a self-contained explanation because there is absolutely nothing else in the context to explain it. I'm personally not a fan of inserting things into the text to explain Quran when there is no warrant, and especially if there is a fitting explanation that does not require an insertion.
red in quote: mine.

Positive was not about "a father leaving his son" but about "the fidya".
What I understand is that you see the fidya as a sort of reward that god gave to Abraham in exchange for leaving his son Isaac/Ismael.
If it is a raward , there would bee no need to use the word fidya, I think that a fidya is not the same as a reward.
You seem to have understood my view when you said "You seem to have a wording preference for fidya, if so, fair enough."


"A self-contained explanation"  seems very abstract in my view.
God rewarded Abraham for leaving his son Isaac/Ismael  with a mighty sacrifice.
While the mighty sacrifice (ie Abraham leaving his son Isaac/Ismael) was done by Abraham.
How did God reward Abraham for something Abraham did himself?


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



ibn_a

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #157 on: October 24, 2019, 08:44:02 AM »

Salaam,



Salaam,



Peace jkhan,


Although I can partially agree with some of your responses to the 10 points raised by Wakas,
but I do not think that: 

Wa fadaynahu bi dhibhin atheem    وفدينه بذبح عظيم

can mean: We ransomed him of a disastrous (azeem) slaughter.... ,

if I did correctly understand what you mean.


If you were right, I think that the word to use would be : من  min  dhibhin atheem.

The ransom/fidya is with dhibhin atheem not from dhibhin atheem

Perhaps that more knowledgeable members can correct or confirm?


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Peace jkhan,


If your explanation of 37:107  in the sense of "saving Abraham from doing what he saw in his dream", I think that another word would be more appropriate than fadaynahu :

for example  --->  نجينه  najjaynahu



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


jkhan

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #158 on: October 24, 2019, 05:55:35 PM »
Salaam,



Peace jkhan,


If your explanation of 37:107  in the sense of "saving Abraham from doing what he saw in his dream", I think that another word would be more appropriate than fadaynahu :

for example  --->  نجينه  najjaynahu



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Peace.......  .....

Look brother....  There is a truth and that's One...

It would have been appropriate had you answered the matter we were discussing which is (Min) or (Bi) ... That was your concern so I involved... Now you skipped it and jumped to another.. Fine... Never mind...
Brother we can't alter words of Quran... First let's know that and keep reminding...  God used words so let's approach meaning for it... As God says this Quran is in pure Arabic and further easy to understand.... Let's find the pure Arabic and make things easy...
To use Najjainahu..  The incident was not torture or without the willingness and acceptance of son Ismail... But both agreed and surrendered...  There is nothing to SAVE....  Pls try to understand before raise questions with simple logic.. God used the perfect word... And try to fit your understanding accordingly. .. If anyone misunderstand the incident to be separation or etc other than slaughter then use logic whether SEPRATION fit for the incident..  That I negated in all my answers but I didn't receive any positive concrete response... Otherwise I would've definitely taken into, consideration. It's not such that I deny all others against my view... Coz God knows I look for guidance with clarity....

ibn_a

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #159 on: October 27, 2019, 07:55:13 AM »
Salaam,


Peace.......  .....

Look brother....  There is a truth and that's One...

It would have been appropriate had you answered the matter we were discussing which is (Min) or (Bi) ... That was your concern so I involved... Now you skipped it and jumped to another.. Fine... Never mind...
Brother we can't alter words of Quran... First let's know that and keep reminding...  God used words so let's approach meaning for it... As God says this Quran is in pure Arabic and further easy to understand.... Let's find the pure Arabic and make things easy...
To use Najjainahu..  The incident was not torture or without the willingness and acceptance of son Ismail... But both agreed and surrendered...  There is nothing to SAVE....  Pls try to understand before raise questions with simple logic.. God used the perfect word... And try to fit your understanding accordingly. .. If anyone misunderstand the incident to be separation or etc other than slaughter then use logic whether SEPRATION fit for the incident..  That I negated in all my answers but I didn't receive any positive concrete response... Otherwise I would've definitely taken into, consideration. It's not such that I deny all others against my view... Coz God knows I look for guidance with clarity....

Peace jkhan,

My intention was not to skip or jump , but to add some information to my previous post, as you can see I quoted my previous post.(maybe "najjaynahu" was not a good example)
Not my intention to alter , as you said the words of God are precise.
Trying  to explain that "fidya" has the sense of exchange.

- An example from Lane's Lexicon ( read in context of 37:107  and 2:229)

http://arabiclexicon.hawramani.com/search/%D9%81%D8%AF%D9%8A?cat=50

b3: وَــفَدَيْــنَاهُ بِذِبْحٍ [in the Kur xxxvii. 107] means And we made an animal prepared for sacrifice to be a ransom for him, and freed him from slaughter. (T, TA.)

b4: فَدَتْ نَفْسَهَا مِنْ زَوْجِهَا and ↓ افتدت [alone] mean She gave property to her husband so that she became free from him by divorce. (Msb, TA.)



This was also said by other members:

...

8.) please explain why Quran describes the sacrifice/dhibhin in 37:107 as great/mighty/azeem?
Jkhan quotes: "disastrous/great(great in the bad aspect) sacrifice", "something of unpleasant, evil oriented Azeem…Same way God absolutely delivered Abraham’s Son form a Azeem (Great) grievous Sacrifice.", "He was ransomed of a Horrible Sacrifice "

Your interpretation fails according to the Arabic: "exchange/ransom" means to swap A with/for B, i.e. swap son for/with something else, NOT save him from something. Simply ask yourself what was the son replaced with? Then let us know.

...

...
=> "reeemed" = Ibn Faris says it means to give a thing in exchange of another, in order to save it (like a ransom), to protect it or to liberate it (as in 2:184 - no siyam in exchange of feeding a poor)
...

Root: ف د ى needs to be studied. The instrument by which one is ransomed or released/absolved of some obligation, which may be forced one or voluntarily undertaken, it is mentioned by preposition Bi.

This Root occurs 13 times. See all ayahs

http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/(1093).htm



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.