I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason

[Jane]

The words of God are infallible

Our understanding of the words of God is NOT infallible

When they were sent down yes. Now they have all been corrupted. The Qur'an is corrupted just like the Torah. It's wishful thinking to claim it was preserved over 1,400 years. We will probably never know the true words of God. We can read the scriptures but we must maintain an open mind and rely on our conscience to lead the way.

[huruf]

Again, Jane, please point out which words of the Qur'an are corrupted and why you think they are corrupted.

Speculation and conjecture, even if they are yours, are nogurantee of anything. What I have seen of Qur'an tells me that people get of out of it what htey are able to get and it does not depend so mucho on the Qur'an but ontheir own whims or prejudice, just as it happens with any other reading. But since you are affiring this in an infallible way, please show us exactly what you say that is wrong. Not all of it if you think that it is thousands of things, but just point out some and explain why it is wrong.

You must understand that if we are objective and systematically examine what we are told to see whether it is right or not, what you say is subject to the same objectivity. Your opinion of Qur'an and mine differ so please point out any of those corruptions you mean are in the Qur'an.

By the way, do you read the Qur'an in Arabic or translations?

Salaam

[Jane]

The fct that you put the Bible at he same level as the Qur'an as far as authenticity is concerned does not speak very favourably of your criteria in this matter, in fact is weird. With the worst wishes of the antiQur'nic crowd, there are very, very, very very slight differences between those different Qur'ans you speak about, why don't you list them here ans quote them in arabic? We could see what is their real import. What do they change? Is there in any of them something shocking like the Eve story in the Bible, o what are those horrible and unberble differences? On the other hand clearly the one which is older and no record of it having been changed is the one overwhwelmy used.

So please, quote that unbearable content of the Qur'an that we cannot approve because it is plainly  inmoral, contradictory, etc.

Salaam

You only think the Qur'an is preserved whilst the Torah was corrupted because you grew up hearing that. Muslims tell themselves that the Qur'an has been preserved because they want to believe God is on their side.

I only speak English. I've read both Rashad Khalifa's and the Monotheist Group translation all the way through. I read ongoing debates about the exact translation. I also read what Arabic speakers have to say about the finer points of some verses to try and get the exact meaning. It appears there are minor differences with major implications between the different Quran versions.

An Arabic speaker discusses it here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jlb81KCvYFA#

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BwSkDXXpNSI#

So far I find contradictory: God says he sent it down to Muhammad yet we are also told that Muhammad went on a night journey up to heaven to get it. Why up AND down. We're told it happened on 1 night, a blessed night, yet instructed to fast a few days. Why a few days if it was just one night?? Why does God say he doesn't forgive idol worship yet says he forgives ALL sins? He doesn't forgive idol worship yet says he forgave the Israelites after they worshipped the golden calf in Moses' absence. That was idol worship!

Why the punishment of flogging for fornication yet also the punishment of house arrest for women who commit lewdness. Why both? What type of lewdness is not fornication. Are we to lock women up for life for flirting? Not dressing modestly? How is this right. Why 100 lashes for both men and women yet a woman's testimony is half that of a man. Are we half or equal or what? A man's body can withstand 100 lashes much better than a woman's, how is it fair that they both receive 100. Why not 50 for the woman since she is half that of a man? God is supposed to be compassionate. What if she's pregnant from the fornication. DOES ANYONE REALLY WANT TO SEE A PREGNANT WOMAN GET LASHED 100 TIMES IN PUBLIC??? Should we wait until after she's had the baby? Now she's traumatised and let's imagine she develops depression and rejects the baby and so we have to give it to someone else to raise. It's ridiculous. And don't even get me started on 4:34. These verses encourage hostility and misery between people. They're from men not from God.

The surah order was changed by Uthman. We know that. The surah order is not from God yet we're supposed to believe the content is 100% from God? FFS wake up.

[huruf]

You have the most sorriest of answers, are you God, that you take it that I have grown up hearing this or that? You really are prejudiced.

You do not know me but you fabricate me a life. You could have guessed right, but as it happens you are dowright wrong. You missed completely. You are not so good at being god and knowing everything. Seing as you speak about me without knowing  anything, I do not feel inclined to trust your criteria for the Qur'an or anything else.

I grew up christian reading and hearing the bible, nothing absolutely of the Qur'an.

Most of the thing syou mentionned are dealt with in this forum you just have to search and see different analysis the ones you are renering inyou rmail ar bullshit. Almost everything has been dealt with here.

And really you arevery brave, not knowing arabic and pontificating the way you do.

Also, are you sure you read in Qur'an that Muhammad undetook the night journey to get the Qur'an. I have never met, that although other things you mentiona I have encountered but of course most of the "the Qur'an says this" which ar enot the Qur'an itself are self serving for those who made that up.

Some things you put as contradictions are lack of familiarity ith simbolical or spiritual language. And that does not matter whther it is the Qur'an or the Popol Vuh.

Also, I am surprised that given you cannot read the Arabic Qur'an that you feel yourself invested of so much authority as to pontificate so universally on Qur'an, you might be more modest and say that that is your feeling, which would be perfectly respectable.

There is however some excuse for your problems, certainly ost translations contain real aberrations, because of adhering to self serving modfiications of the original or lack of care and  throughness in the translation work. But for that there is also the critical spirit which no person really interested in finding out things which are important for her can rennounce.


Salaam 

[Layth]

Dear Jane.

I have read your posts and find all of them are refutable. The study of the Quran is not to be a rushed job - otherwise you end up with the doubt that you currently carry (Quran itself says ?do not rush with the Quran?).

If you would like to break down the points we can discuss them one at a time.

[Neptin]

You have the most sorriest of answers, are you God, that you take it that I have grown up hearing this or that? You really are prejudiced.

You do not know me but you fabricate me a life. You could have guessed right, but as it happens you are dowright wrong. You missed completely. You are not so good at being god and knowing everything. Seing as you speak about me without knowing  anything, I do not feel inclined to trust your criteria for the Qur'an or anything else.

I grew up christian reading and hearing the bible, nothing absolutely of the Qur'an.

Most of the thing syou mentionned are dealt with in this forum you just have to search and see different analysis the ones you are renering inyou rmail ar bullshit. Almost everything has been dealt with here.

And really you arevery brave, not knowing arabic and pontificating the way you do.

Also, are you sure you read in Qur'an that Muhammad undetook the night journey to get the Qur'an. I have never met, that although other things you mentiona I have encountered but of course most of the "the Qur'an says this" which ar enot the Qur'an itself are self serving for those who made that up.

Some things you put as contradictions are lack of familiarity ith simbolical or spiritual language. And that does not matter whther it is the Qur'an or the Popol Vuh.

Also, I am surprised that given you cannot read the Arabic Qur'an that you feel yourself invested of so much authority as to pontificate so universally on Qur'an, you might be more modest and say that that is your feeling, which would be perfectly respectable.

There is however some excuse for your problems, certainly ost translations contain real aberrations, because of adhering to self serving modfiications of the original or lack of care and  throughness in the translation work. But for that there is also the critical spirit which no person really interested in finding out things which are important for her can rennounce.


Salaam

Peace. Even if you were a convert, you still retain the capacity for "my side bias" on the Qur'an. And this is what Jane is stating.

As to some of the issues she has raised, they are valid. You have to be a Muslim to turn down several concerns with the Qur'an. If you're just a random fellow that pick the Qur'an and read it without the assumption that is the Book of God, chances are that you'd be confused and unconvinced. Yes, I know there are exceptions, and you are one of these.

Now, you say some of the issues she raised here have been dealt with in previous thread. But how? There are plenty of these threads that seek to re-interpret verses. Sometimes, they do well, but many times they just come up with alternative interpretation that remain debatable, not definite, and prove the Qur'an is not clear.

Still recall diamentinehoneybunch? Remember her last thread here concerning her difficulties with the Qur'an & how all attempts to resolve them failed? She is now a deist.

Now, since you say you were a Christian who read the Qur'an and was convinced, how do you account for the contradictions between the Bible and Qur'an. There are lots of them. And don't say the Bible was corrupted because the Qur'an never spelt this. The Qur'an ask the Jews and Christians to follow their scriptures and should have forewarned us of any tampering in the future.

Here are a few issues between Qur'an & Bible

Abraham delivered from the city or the fire?
Sister of Aaron, Mary or Miriam?

Let's go back to science. I believe science is a fair yardstick to evaluate the scriptures that claim to be literal word of God. Read the following verses and decide whether the atmosphere(heaven) is a solid mass or a space of gaseous matter: 22:63, 22:65, 25:25, 50.6.

Lastly, about the preservation of Qur'an. Are you aware of the absence of diacritic and vowel marks in the earliest manuscripts?

[Jafar]

When they were sent down yes. Now they have all been corrupted. The Qur'an is corrupted just like the Torah.

Sent down from where?
All books, ebooks, stone tablet, clay tablet, iPad are "Made In Planet Earth".

Historical fact:
It was the Sumerian who first came up with the idea that The Gods wrote laws on Tablet and "sent it down" from Heaven with delivery address to the high priest or king. The high priest / king then can say that I have received this law written on the tablet from The Gods and it's applicable from this point on within my realm. Dare not to question it's legality and validity as it's after all sent down from the Heaven as those who dare to do so shall face the wrath of the Gods.

It's wishful thinking to claim it was preserved over 1,400 years. We will probably never know the true words of God. We can read the scriptures but we must maintain an open mind and rely on our conscience to lead the way.

Yes there is a way to know the "true words of God", all you need to do is ASK and He will answer, through billions of channels and means. Everyone have direct access to Him. That's how revelation works and revelation did not stop 1400 years ago it's still actively going on up until today and far to the future.

[imrankhawaja]

When you see hell punishment verses it appears God/s created a hot fluid that will boil in stomach and destroy the intestines. Becoz their worst nightmare was HOTNESS.

For a manmade God he must be stonehearted and emotionless being with a mind to see his own creation burning for long long periods.

Or people before 14 hund centuries were fearless naughty kids who need to get advised by those horrors of afterlife what is censored in todays age for kids under 13.even a person in his 40s easily get scared by some of the horrible ever punishment that can be imagined with skin changing upon every burning.

We have also gods of quranic interpretors too who take it as literally or metaphorically look in future how they manage to make u understand about what book said 14 hund yrs ago 

They are the one who choose when something is metahor or when something is example but they themsleves dnt know what they know is guessworks the only reality they know is they dnt know nothing at all. They just think its their duty to defend by switching things from literal to metaphor vs example so that u understand like kids understand becoz the punishment is literal vs metaphor hence its not really possible u get that punishment but u ll get worser than that    purpose is to make people scared like hell.

Some shots in movie are not for weak hearts be careful while approaching those verses from the books claimed to b send by manmade god.

The work of real God will directly send down to your hearts like a computer download its contents from internat.

[Jafar]

We have also gods of quranic interpretors too who take it as literally or metaphorically look in future how they manage to make u understand about what book said 14 hund yrs ago 

They are the one who choose when something is metahor or when something is example but they themsleves dnt know what they know is guessworks the only reality they know is they dnt know nothing at all.

Voila, claiming the role as sole and ultimate broker to God.
That is a common scheme for thousand of years..

As promotion material they will invented the claim:
They and people who followed them are the only enlightened / chosen / saved people by God. Others who are outside of their group are ignorant / unchosen / doomed to eternal torture by God.

Since we have a good "bad example" now let's take the opposite path...
1. Don't play the role as sole and ultimate broker to God, God can be accessed by everyone through any means. There is no single mean (let alone single holy book) to reach God either.
2. Invite people to God, and not to your sect / cult / religion / idol / holy book. yes invite them to directly access God, God is accessible by everyone anywhere on any language directly without any broker, translator or mediator. Urged them to never hesitate to ASK and SEEK because when they do they will receive.

[imrankhawaja]

That is a common scheme for thousand of years..

That scheme is in its last stages and advance minds already prepared a grave for that scheme.

Most of the people who even claimed to follow that old scheme are best of hypocrates or we can say law of real God is present with us upon seeing hypocrasy of them we can observe like this

Look how the surveys shows 98% so called believers of holy books never get a chance to read that holy scripture in their life time.

1 they dnt bother
2 they know its a scheme
3 its a sign of God to show the reality is not limited to XYZ book/cult.
4 98% are blind believers.
5 they imagined some super hero will save them as intercessor.

Its like creating a virus first then making a dose to cure that virus.  obv virus is not from God but they prove you god is the creator of that virus.

Reasons are lot but scheme was long rooted by our ancestors it will take its time to finally put all the scriptures in a mueseum of old religions where people tell their kids thats how old people make their kids fools by factor of fear now we are lucky we are using our conscience what is already a gift and real sign of creator.