I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason

[Neptin]

I don't understand what you are saying here, can you please elaborate?

God alone is not the only message of Qur'an. There are statutes spelt out for Muslims to live by.

Not all liverpool fans, nationalist (any countries), jews and christians admit that their idol is not perfect and might be offended when they hear someone said as such.

Yet some of them do.

And not all Muslims believe that their idol is perfect either, which paved way for secular democracy that have made the #1 Muslim majority country habitable for Non-Muslims.

I don't think any Muslim today believe the Qur'an to be less than perfect, all the verses are considered perfect by Muslims.

What paved way for the democracy in Indonesia was the authoritarian regime preceding it. If there Muslims that regarded the Qur'an unfit as modern constitution, it is clear that these were only the elites or ruling class.

Also, how democratic is Indonesia now? Wasn't it in Indonesia a Christian governor(Ahok) was tried and imprison for allegedly insulting Qur'an? Isn't it in Aceh, Indonesia, that religious police patrol the street to ensure everyone complies with "Islamic morals"?

Democracy in Indonesia, like other Muslim countries feel like some thing that is thrust on the people, not something that developed organically. It is majoritocracy.

[Wakas]

RE: taraib

Background:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1159.msg5263#msg5263
http://www.quransmessage.com/articles/verse%2086-7.htm


Just because a word, only used once in Quran, could theoretically have several meanings and translators cannot agree on which particular meaning has no bearing whatsoever on Quran's claim being "clear", "detailed" etc. Being clear and detailed does not mean people can only interpret every single thing in it only one way. Quran even acknowledges variant understandings will exist and addresses this issue, see link in my earlier post.

[ade_cool]

The words of God are infallible

Our understanding of the words of God is NOT infallible

[huruf]

The words of God are infallible

Our understanding of the words of God is NOT infallible

I
ndeed

[Jafar]

God alone is not the only message of Qur'an. There are statutes spelt out for Muslims to live by.

True... yet oddly enough, Quran never endorsed Quran alone.. 

And God alone, as the name implied, doesn't have any correlation with books, any books.

I don't think any Muslim today believe the Qur'an to be less than perfect, all the verses are considered perfect by Muslims.

Dig further, ask further why it's perfect.. and you'll hear weird answers...

It's again.. common... most of the times people are just parroting what they often hear.
Which is the #1 reason why advertising and propaganda works..

Why iPhone is perfect? I dunno, because everyone else said so....

Tell something (whether it's lie or truth doesn't matter) often enough, it will believed to be truthful.

What paved way for the democracy in Indonesia was the authoritarian regime preceding it. If there Muslims that regarded the Qur'an unfit as modern constitution, it is clear that these were only the elites or ruling class.

What paved way for Secularism in Indonesia was diversity.

Also, how democratic is Indonesia now? Wasn't it in Indonesia a Christian governor(Ahok) was tried and imprison for allegedly insulting Qur'an? Isn't it in Aceh, Indonesia, that religious police patrol the street to ensure everyone complies with "Islamic morals"?

More democratic than commonly perceived. Not perfect definitely.. but less bigotry and more democratic compared to other Muslim majority countries, or many other Christian majority or Atheist countries for that matter.

I wouldn't dig on those two examples, as those two unique cases are unique, yet those are just small cases compared to the bigger whole.

Democracy in Indonesia, like other Muslim countries feel like some thing that is thrust on the people, not something that developed organically. It is majoritocracy.

In case you haven't noticed, democracy is a majoritocracy... majority rules.. for good or for worse..

Yet what I believe you should strive against are Bigotry and Fanaticism.

[good logic]

Quote from Jafar:

True... yet oddly enough, Quran never endorsed Quran alone.. 

Expand on this statement please. Does this not contradict your quote:
6:19-6:20
Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "God's. He is the witness between me and you that this QORAN has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods* beside God." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."

i.e Qoran alone!!!

Those to whom we have given the scripture recognize this as they recognize their own children. The ones who lose their souls are those who do not believe.
It seems you overlooked this:
6:21:
Who is more evil than one who lies about God, or rejects His revelations?...

Any way brother:
Wa Idha Dakarta Rabbaka Fi QORAN WAHDAHU Wallaw Ala Adbarihim Nufura…

When you remember GOD through Qoran Alone.....You may reflect?
GOD bless you Peace.

[Jafar]

i.e Qoran alone!!!

When you remember GOD through Qoran Alone.....You may reflect?

Then how about those who were born and died before the Quran was being written?

[huruf]

There were othe things, there have always been other things, all over the world amonst all peoples.

Let us say that the Qur'an is very ergonomic, handy... It is very helpful, even if you still have all the choice of other things all over the world and the ages, always of course being aware that not everything that is called holy or revealed may be so or entirely so. Jusgement is always required.

Salaam

[Jafar]

There were othe things, there have always been other things, all over the world amonst all peoples.

Let us say that the Qur'an is very ergonomic, handy... It is very helpful, even if you still have all the choice of other things all over the world and the ages, always of course being aware that not everything that is called holy or revealed may be so or entirely so. Jusgement is always required.

Exactly,
God's guidance and revelation is endless, delivered through unlimited channels to everyone or everything if you count the aliens as well.. and it never ends..

There's no such thing as God's revelation has ended and/or God only send out guidance / revelation to a specific group of people thus making him/them as the ultimate broker to God and / or the most enlightened among men (or aliens).

What you all need to do to receive God's revelation is to just ASK, and you will receive it.. although you might not like the revelation.. that is the essence / core of God alone's attitude.

Q: Mirror mirror on the wall who is the fairest of them all?
A: Definitely not you...

Truth and revelation sometimes hurts...

[good logic]

Peace Jafar.
You say, quote:

Then how about those who were born and died before the Quran was being written?

The fact remains neither you nor me were born before the Qoran.
So the issue about Qoran remains  and stays as long as Qoran does.
And either one ignores it or studies it deeper.
GOD bless you.
Peace.