I have given up on the Muslim community for this reason

[Neptin]

Peace.

1. God alone or attitude of islam has nothing to do with any book (such as quran)
The evidence is within the quran itself it told stories of past people who are claimed as muslims but never read the quran.

Have we not agreed that much as God alone is the primary message of the Qur'an, the Qur'an enjoins its readers to abide by its statutes for the maximum benefit?

2. It's true that some people has developed a syndrome of idolization of quran.
Yet it's a common pattern found within any human, it gives them a (false) sense of pride and formed a unique identity which can be used for bonding among them. A sort of criteria to be used to classify 'us' (believers) and 'them' (the unbelievers).

Agreed.

3. With this post; you're 'attacking' the idol within the lairs of it's idolators.
But I guess you know this already and already know what to expect too.. LOL
Yet as a social experiment, try posting the same thing in another group and you'll get the same response.
Try posting a statement that Bible is not infallible within Christian's forum, Torah is not infallible within Judaism forum or Liverpool FC is not the best football club in the world within Liverpool FC forum or Ali Jinnah is not infallible within Pakistani forum or Mao Zedong is not infallibe within Maoist forum or USA is not infallible within American nationalist forum and you'll get the same response.

Among Liverpool fans, American Nationalists and Pakistanis, they still admit that their idol is not perfect. Jews & Christians understand the limitation of the Bible or Torah, it is this awareness that paved way for secular democracy that have made the west habitable for Muslims.

Muslims don't see the weakness and limitation of the Qur'an because of the folks resorting to all kinds of re-interpretation bias to defend this very Qur'an that has been invoked to kill, amputate and oppress by the caliphs, the mullahs and mujahideens throughout Muslim history. This is bad, OK? This is just so sad, there is so much sadness everywhere here.

4. Correlating the 'terrorist' with those who believe that quran (or any other things) as infallible is far fetched.
It's true that they share a common thing but it does not qualify the later to be equal to the before mentioned. Not all Liverpool FC fans are hooligans and not all Nazis / German Nationalist are murdering maniacs and not all white superiority are klux klux klan and not all Bible believers are Christians extremist.

Well, if we admit that there are verses that are potentially wrong and the Qur'an cannot be said to be 100% the preserved, literal and infallible word of God, then you'll find less Muslims making death threat against blasphemers, less Muslim countries returning to hudud like Brunei, and Iran government may reconsider enforcing headscarf.

But if we're God/Qur'an alone Muslims who sit and undermine valid concerns about the Qur'an, based on our own personal or unilateral interpretation, and then maintain the Qur'an to be infallible, then we're contributing to fanaticism.

[huruf]

"infallibl" is Church parlance it is nto Qur'n parlance. I have never up to these days here have I read ever about infallibility or fallibility in the Qur'an.

Who has invented this thing about infalllibility.

It goes to show that the colonisation os islam continues and far from diminishing is increasing.

Next what? Will we get  pope or a patriarch? And this Daesh and other garbage is an imperial plant, just like other operations inside countries, whereby you have a first a few protesters and in no time those "poor protesters" have become and armed "resistance" are imperial plants.

Of course mny muslims have let themselves be coloniased with nonsense from those beautiful religions of the west and the "history" they and canonize plces and so on, although they re picky about them and feel that some places ae less deserving thn others. How does colonising the Qur'an further help anyone?

But it seems that provided we get our "evil guy" to whip at no cost, for some it is Arab nationlism, for others Islam as they see it colonised, provided we get that acceptable persecuted, we are happy. Always find the right victim which lets you
let out your frustrations without solving them, and but it feels so good...

Then we protest about labelling whole groups, but tha us precisely the problem. Morally, spiritually there are no groups, the Qur'an, so fallible it is reeat that EACH PERSON stands alone, she will not share neither in the merits nor in the demerits of any other person, but we still find that we need that victim to lbame for everything and that victim has to be a group. Great!

Salaam

[good logic]

Why should the Qoran be responsible for false religions? Is it the fault of Qoran that people misunderstand its message? Or is it the ignorance and arrogance of those who have agendas?
Qoran -the Arabic text- has been here over 1400 years, yet still people are divided about its sayings. Still sects are arguing and fighting each other and
claiming they are its true followers!

For example, throughout my time here. I am hearing brother jafar accuse anyone  claiming to follow Qoran that they idolise the book. Or does the book ask for idolising it? Is this not as bad as false religions if one is ignorant of what the book says?
 Surely one needs to have a look at the book and see for themselves what it is saying, don t they?

All the Qoran is saying to everyone is : Do not believe anything you have no knowledge of until you check it. You have been given the eyes, ears and brain to use for that.
So @ jafar and anyone else, these are the choices about Qoran:
1- study it with sincerity and find out without bias what it is saying.
2- Leave it be if  it is full of nonsense and rubbish.

It is irrelevant what others do, think /claim ...about the book and futile to comment on what we do not know for sure.

It is up to each individual to choose their path regardless of others.
GOD bless.
Peace.

[hawk99]

1. January '19

Recall in January my thread on Qur'an support for Geocentric or Flat earth model of the universe. My sole intention was not necessarily to cite the Qur'an as wrong, it was to draw attention to what I find the Qur'an actually states Vs what people say the Qur'an states. My finding on the Qur'an left me doubting the heliocentric model, and for once I decided to consider the flat fixed earth argument.

What this post is about is not necessarily on the Qur'an, but on Muslims' approach to Qur'an, how this approach breed so much negativity that I've given up on the community, whether the Qur'an alone or traditional.

So out of emotion your feelings were hurt.

2. How do Muslims approach the Qur'an?

They view the Qur'an as;

The literal, infallible and perfectly preserved word of God.

Try not to speak for me please.   

This approach to Islam is WRONG as I will show, but it is also very toxic because all forms of Muslim fanaticism and terrorism is predicated on this view of the Qur'an.

Fanaticism and terrorism are not Qur'an based


3. Let's see a few verses of Qur'an.

Qur'an 96.02 -  Createth man from alaq.
Qur'an 23: 12-14 - Verily We created man from a product of wet earth. Then placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging; Then fashioned We the drop a alaqa, then fashioned We the alaqa little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!

3. Alaqa meaning in Arabic

One of the stages of embryo or fetus is an 'alaqa' or 'alaq', according to Qur'an. Here are the meanings of 'alaqa' in Arabic; 'something that clings', 'blood clot', 'leeches'.

4. Meaning of Alaqa in Qur'an in Muslim history

All through Muslim history, 'blood clot' have been generally agreed as the meaning of 'alaqa' in relation to embryology in Qur'an. This is so because, blood or clot was generally taught in the 7th century as an early stage of embryo during gestation. All the earliest tafsir agree. You can see why majority of Qur'an translation translate the term as clot.

As we all know, the implication of this is that the Qur'an verse is wrong. Never is the embryo a clot. But, the Qur'an cannot be wrong, because it is the literal, infallible and preserved word of God.

5. Meaning of Alaqa in Qur'an at 21st century

So, in the 20th century, when it was proven that the embryo is never blood, some Qur'an translators and Muslim scholars began to reconsider alternative meaning for the word 'alaqa'. "Leeches, leech like clot, clinging substance, embryo" are all words that scholars and translators have now referred to alaqa.

6. What does Alaqa really mean in Qur'an?

Whether we believe Qur'an meant 'alaqa' as blood clot or not is beside the point. Recall, we have always agreed the Qur'an is clear, that it delivers its message with pin point precision in choice of word. The point here is that Qur'an uses a word that also mean 'blood clot' to describe an embryonic stage. This negates the infallibility of the text, and thus the text's divinity or preservation.

NB: Also, see Qur'an 86:5-7, where it seemingly states that sex fluids or gametes comes out from 'between the backbone and the ribs.' This is incorrect.

Hilarious, you mean to tell me that the interpretation of the word alaqa
determines if the ayats about how to live a righteous life and the wisdom
contained throughout the book are to be discarded because of the
interpretation of the word alaqa.   

7. What is wrong in the Muslim community

My problem with the Muslim community is just how much these concerns with the Qur'an are either overlooked or concealed from the public, in fear of raising doubts, in order to preserve the view of Qur'an infallibility.

8. Consequence of proclaiming the Qur'an is infallible

What happens when we approach the Qur'an as the infallible and perfect? We're inadvertently supporting the fanatics and terrorists.
We may not agree with their interpretation of the Qur'an, but we agree with them that the Qur'an is infallible. This is enough green light for them to apply what ever they understand as Qur'anic; amputating thieves, slavery, offensive jihad, jizya, persecuting Qur'an critics or blasphemers, gender inequality in testimonies and inheritance  etc.

How could you possibly conflate the two.   
I read a book, shaytayn reads the same book somehow
that's a "green light" for his sins, you really, really need to
get an education sorry for being so blunt.

[huruf]

Again, what is this unfallible speaking of a book which is already there, completed.

Do you mean it contins things that are wrong? Point them out nd of course that will be your opinion, unless you prove they are wrong.

I have not yet seen any proof of anything pointed out as wrong int he Qur'an as wrong. I can remember that people take what others say the Qur'an says and then attribute it to the Qur'an and say it is wrong. And when I have verified, it is the ttributers who are wrong.

So finally it come sto that, those who react to other people are not really faithful to themselves, simple react. They spent all their srength reacting. So their struggle is meaningless. Get tired for nothing.

Salaam 

And other than that anything else

[Jane]

A lot of Qur'an-Aloners seem to be holding on to the Sunni belief that the Qur'an has been divinely preserved because it is special. Some Sunnis believe the Qur'an itself has magic powers! It's just silliness.

The Qur'an as revealed to Muhammad (if that really was his real name 'cause we don't actually know) was perfect but what we've got now is nowhere near the same thing. Believers want to know God's word so it's not to be abandoned I think but we should be focusing on working out which parts of it are original and which have been added in. I personally suspect Muhammad's night journey and Laylat Al Qadr are additions as they make no sense, don't fit with the Shar Ramadan story of when the Qur'an was revealed AND they are very similar to pre-Muhammad pagan beliefs. It's important we get to the bottom of how much the Qur'an has been corrupted.

Traditional Muslims could assist with this but instead are resisting by clinging to the belief that the Qur'an is perfect and unchanged. Saying it's the translations that are wrong but the original Arabic is perfect is bizarre since there are 5 different Qur'an versions used I believe and the Arabic text differs between them. Which one of these is the real one then?? You can see why Neptin is frustrated.

[huruf]

A lot of Qur'an-Aloners seem to be holding on to the Sunni belief that the Qur'an has been divinely preserved because it is special. Some Sunnis believe the Qur'an itself has magic powers! It's just silliness.

The Qur'an as revealed to Muhammad (if that really was his real name 'cause we don't actually know) was perfect but what we've got now is nowhere near the same thing. Believers want to know God's word so it's not to be abandoned I think but we should be focusing on working out which parts of it are original and which have been added in. I personally suspect Muhammad's night journey and Laylat Al Qadr are additions as they make no sense, don't fit with the Shar Ramadan story of when the Qur'an was revealed AND they are very similar to pre-Muhammad pagan beliefs. It's important we get to the bottom of how much the Qur'an has been corrupted.

Traditional Muslims could assist with this but instead are resisting by clinging to the belief that the Qur'an is perfect and unchanged. Saying it's the translations that are wrong but the original Arabic is perfect is bizarre since there are 5 different Qur'an versions used I believe and the Arabic text differs between them. Which one of these is the real one then?? You can see why Neptin is frustrated.

The fct that you put the Bible at he same level as the Qur'an as far as authenticity is concerned does not speak very favourably of your criteria in this matter, in fact is weird. With the worst wishes of the antiQur'nic crowd, there are very, very, very very slight differences between those different Qur'ans you speak about, why don't you list them here ans quote them in arabic? We could see what is their real import. What do they change? Is there in any of them something shocking like the Eve story in the Bible, o what are those horrible and unberble differences? On the other hand clearly the one which is older and no record of it having been changed is the one overwhwelmy used.

So please, quote that unbearable content of the Qur'an that we cannot approve because it is plainly  inmoral, contradictory, etc.

Salaam

[Jafar]

Have we not agreed that much as God alone is the primary message of the Qur'an, the Qur'an enjoins its readers to abide by its statutes for the maximum benefit?

I don't understand what you are saying here, can you please elaborate?

Among Liverpool fans, American Nationalists and Pakistanis, they still admit that their idol is not perfect. Jews & Christians understand the limitation of the Bible or Torah, it is this awareness that paved way for secular democracy that have made the west habitable for Muslims.

Not all liverpool fans, nationalist (any countries), jews and christians admit that their idol is not perfect and might be offended when they hear someone said as such.

Yet some of them do.

And not all Muslims believe that their idol is perfect either, which paved way for secular democracy that have made the #1 Muslim majority country habitable for Non-Muslims.

Well, if we admit that there are verses that are potentially wrong and the Qur'an cannot be said to be 100% the preserved, literal and infallible word of God, then you'll find less Muslims making death threat against blasphemers, less Muslim countries returning to hudud like Brunei, and Iran government may reconsider enforcing headscarf.

Your correlation is unproven, less people within a sect / group which admit that their idol is not perfect doesn't mean less violence happening within such sect / group.

But if we're God/Qur'an alone Muslims who sit and undermine valid concerns about the Qur'an, based on our own personal or unilateral interpretation, and then maintain the Qur'an to be infallible, then we're contributing to fanaticism.

First, God alone is not the same as Quran alone.

Second you got one thing right, fanaticism is the root cause.

What does Christian Extremist, Islam Terrorist, KKK, Murdering Nazis, Liverpool Hooligans, Murdering Maoist, Murdering Leninist, Murdering Zionist, Murdering Arab Nationalist have in common?
1. Extreme level of pride (read: fanaticism) about their identity and idol. Their identity uber alles, their idol uber alles.
2. Hatred towards anyone who do not share the same identity which they labeled as their 'enemy'.
3. Hatred towards anyone who do not share the same opinion / belief as they do.

[Noon waalqalami]

1. January '19

21:30 ان anna i.e. an inna (that indeed)
21:31 روسى high peaks ان an (that) تمىد shake بهم with them
21:32 السما the sky سقفا roof of محفوظا safeguard/protective of
21:33 والشمس and the sun والقمر and the moon كل each (i.e. everything mentioned prior) فى in فلك ship/orbit ىسبحون sailing

2. How do Muslims approach the Qur'an?
3. Alaqa meaning in Arabic
4. Meaning of Alaqa in Qur'an in Muslim history
5. Meaning of Alaqa in Qur'an at 21st century
6. What does Alaqa really mean in Qur'an?

7th century only have few old manuscripts; blood clot made up hundreds of years later.

96:2 علق alaqin/clinging substance

Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane
علق
It hung to it; it was, or became, suspended to it
[and] it clung, caught, clave, adhered, held, or stuck fast, to it

4:129 كالمعلقه kal-mu’alaqati/like the one dangles
One of oldest manuscripts: Cairo, National Library: qāf 47 dated 606-652, CE (95.4%)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/129/handschrift/73
translation:

Qur'an 86:5-7... and the ribs.

word is not ribs/dulue and obviously points to place from which fluid emits, nothing spectacular.
86:7 والترىب wal-taraibi

Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane
- حَبَتِ الأَضْلَاعُ إِلَى الصُّلْبِ The ribs joined to the backbone

A poet says
رَكِبْنَاهَا سَمَانَتَهَا فَلَمَّا
بَدَتْ مِنْهَا السَّنَاسِنُ وَالضُّلُوعُ
” (IAar, M, L,) meaning We rode her during her state of fatness, or plumpness, [but when the edges of her vertebræ, and the ribs, became apparent, ...]

7. What is wrong in the Muslim community
8. Consequence of proclaiming the Qur'an is infallible
... amputating thieves, slavery, offensive jihad, jizya, persecuting Qur'an critics or blasphemers, gender inequality in testimonies and inheritance  etc.

the vast majority is clueless parroting verses as are those who parrot the parrots cannot read/comprehend a thing even simple stuff e.g. still no takers; open book, internet, call a friend or whoever ...

Here's a test anyone who answers all six correctly – I’ll send a gift card $600 prize!

peace!

[Neptin]

21:30 ان anna i.e. an inna (that indeed)
21:31 روسى high peaks ان an (that) تمىد shake بهم with them
21:32 السما the sky سقفا roof of محفوظا safeguard/protective of
21:33 والشمس and the sun والقمر and the moon كل each (i.e. everything mentioned prior) فى in فلك ship/orbit ىسبحون sailing

When I read the verse, I get no impression that that earth is among the orbiting bodies. This verse again is repeated in 36:40, still no sign of earth orbit or rotation. "Sun, moon, night & day" are the objects mentioned.

7th century only have few old manuscripts; blood clot made up hundreds of years later.

96:2 علق alaqin/clinging substance

Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane
علق
It hung to it; it was, or became, suspended to it
[and] it clung, caught, clave, adhered, held, or stuck fast, to it

4:129 كالمعلقه kal-mu’alaqati/like the one dangles
One of oldest manuscripts: Cairo, National Library: qāf 47 dated 606-652, CE (95.4%)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/129/handschrift/73
translation:

How can we be sure of this? You're basically saying the word meant "clinging substance" at the time of Muhammad but later on Arabs began to refer to the word as blood clot.

Valid point, but it raises further question on the clarity and thus preservation of Qur'an. It mean that even if Qur'an is preserved, the Arabic language is not. And if Arabic language and vocabulary continue to change through the ages, then the specific meanings of words in the Qur'an might've been lost or confounded with other meanings that developed over time.

I've also seen valid arguments why "clinging substance" is unlikely to be the meaning of "alaq" in these verses. But I won't post them here because the purpose of this thread is not to convince anyone what the Qur'an means, but to prove that the Qur'an can in fact be misleading. Erroneous understanding of the reality may be deduced from it, however objective and rational the readers think they are. As such it cannot be said with certainty to be the literal, preserved & infallible word of God.

word is not ribs/dulue and obviously points to place from which fluid emits, nothing spectacular.
86:7 والترىب wal-taraibi

Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane
- حَبَتِ الأَضْلَاعُ إِلَى الصُّلْبِ The ribs joined to the backbone

A poet says
رَكِبْنَاهَا سَمَانَتَهَا فَلَمَّا
بَدَتْ مِنْهَا السَّنَاسِنُ وَالضُّلُوعُ
” (IAar, M, L,) meaning We rode her during her state of fatness, or plumpness, [but when the edges of her vertebræ, and the ribs, became apparent, ...]

What is taraib, then? I've found from a few sources these meanings; ribs, sternum, chest, the two legs, the two arms or two eyes. Basically, we don't know. Taraib could mean any of these different anatomical parts. This is a legit concern.