Author Topic: History of the Qur'an - great research  (Read 668 times)

pcborg

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All praise, thanks, dedication and worship are due to Allah, and Allah alone.

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Noon waalqalami

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Re: History of the Qur'an - great research
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2020, 08:14:40 PM »
peace, what is great about this research he posted questions gave no answers kept talking?
he should use cross-reference, context, and oldest manuscripts not 150+ year-old hearsay.

see 5:40 min https://youtu.be/4sNWx-SSvc8?list=PL3yXG2ufxd6Ufv8iDWTj_JGbICzfiyLoB&t=341
scribes avoided alif middle of words use context meaning obvious.
1,000+ alifs were added 100+ years later due to an evolving script.

57:24, 60:6 فان الله هو الغنى الحمىد
3rd line from bottom
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/57/vers/24/handschrift/163
2nd line from bottom
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/60/vers/6?handschrift=163

66:12, 2:285, 4:136 وكتبه
no alif 12th line from top
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/66/vers/12?handschrift=157

7:141 https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/141/handschrift/141
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/141?handschrift=13

ch 111: https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/111/vers/1?handschrift=620

see 20:50 min https://youtu.be/4sNWx-SSvc8?list=PL3yXG2ufxd6Ufv8iDWTj_JGbICzfiyLoB&t=1251
 
27:21 لاذبحنه
no extra alif 10th line from top
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/27/vers/21?handschrift=107

3:158 لالى
no extra alif see manuscripts qāf 47— 606-652 CE (95,4%)
4th line from top extra alif clearly added later
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/158?handschrift=73

51:47 باىد
no extra ya 13th line from top
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/51/vers/47?handschrift=163

38:17 الاىد
no extra ya 1st line at top
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/38/vers/18/handschrift/163

7:145 ساورىكم
4th line from top
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/145/handschrift/163
3rd line from bottom
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/145?handschrift=13

see 26:13 min https://youtu.be/4sNWx-SSvc8?list=PL3yXG2ufxd6Ufv8iDWTj_JGbICzfiyLoB&t=1573

2:132 no alif in oldest manuscripts, see last line likewise cross-reference other words
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/132?handschrift=32

2:132 ووصى بها ابرهىم
4:11 ىوصىكم
4:11, 4:12 ىوصى بها
4:12 ىوصىن بها
4:131 ولقد وصىنا
29:8, 31:14, 46:15 ووصىنا الانسن
42:13 وصى به نوحا
42:13 وصىنا به ابرهىم

46:15, 29:8 no alif (husnan/goodness of)
 ووصىنا الانسن بولدىه حسنا

2:83, 4:36, 6:151, 17:23 with alif different word (ihsanan/kindness of)
 وبالولدىن احسنا

10:22 ىسىركم
6th line from top:
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/10/vers/22?handschrift=13

17:36 and not pursue what not is to you in it knowledge ...
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/17/vers/36?handschrift=107


pcborg

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Re: History of the Qur'an - great research
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2020, 02:00:35 PM »
Salaam,

Before all this response, please have patience with the content.  He has a 95 video series and a 1275 page book on this topic, he has studied it for 20 years.  He has done his research specifically to refute the ahruf and Qira'aat rubbish and to construct [to his mind] a logical story of the history of the Qur'an.

He also does a study on the history of the arabic script btw.

I don't know what you are trying to achieve above, but there is, for an undeniable fact, changes in words that have nothing to do with the development of the script or anything like that in some of the less common readings [Warsh etc.].

Give his work a chance.

Finally, the historcal manuscripts of the Qur'an appear to be a mixed bag, and cannot be assumed to be respresenting the full truth of the Qur'anic transmission.

Edit:  I am interested in what convinces you about the alif topic?  Your comments on them are completely illogical.  The alif and its existence has a nontrivial impact on the sense of a word, there is no logic to the claim that it was left to hope that you could figure it out from context, that is basically the removal of the vowel that should be there.  and Husna and ihsan, these are different, and there is no logic to the claim that it is a scribal practice to avoid alifs in the middle of words, daaraba and darba and many other words could concievably work i the same place, and it would be pure neglegence to leave that out.

Please point me to where I can read more about these contentions, as at this point they make no sense to me.

17:36.

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Noon waalqalami

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Re: History of the Qur'an - great research
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2020, 10:19:44 PM »
Please point me to where I can read more about these contentions, as at this point they make no sense to me.

17:36.

peace – did peruse few videos no time to view all 195 or 1275-page book; better would be to post each issue and resolution. Likewise, little to do with hafs (died ~796 CE) or warsh (d. 812 CE) since oldest manuscripts predate them by 150+ years.

1.   verse counts e.g. initials الم alif lam meem 20:1 طه ta ha etc., not single verses
2.   old scribes avoided writing alifs in middle of words unless they were required
3.   many words like 4:12 كلله kalala they’re still clueless saying fatherless when 4:11 clearly states parents if no offspring inherit together with siblings (although off topic)

here are three of the oldest dated manuscripts (note: some alif’s were penned in later).

Gotthelf Bergsträßer Archive: Cairo, National Library: qāf 47 dated 606-652 CE (95.4%)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/11/handschrift/73

Tübingen, University Library: Ma VI 165 dated 649-675 CE (95.4%)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/3/handschrift/107

University of Birmingham: Islamic Arabic 1572 dated 568-645 CE (95.4%)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/3/handschrift/281

20:1 طه ta ha (together with next verse in oldest manuscripts)
20:2 ما not انزلنا descends we of علىك upon you القران the recitation (qur'an) لتشقى to thou agonize
20:3 الا except تذكره reminder لمن liman/to whom ىخشى yakhsha/feared


obvious scribe errors exist in some old manuscripts detect via cross-reference/context, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarkand_Kufic_Quran late 8th/early 9th century is worst.

4th line from bottom 20:3 see 3rd word (no Noon) cannot be لم lam/not OR لم lima 
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/3/handschrift/141
20:3 الا except تذكره reminder لم lam/not خشى khashiya/fear (ya ى also missing) -- broken language!

1,000+ alifs added years later (easy to spot) as script evolved e.g. 100 below old and current.

ءَاثَارِهِمَا      اثرهما    
أَثْقَالَهُمْ      اثقلهم   
إِجْرَامِى      اجرمى   
أَجْسَامُهُمْ      اجسمهم   
أَحْبَارَهُمْ      احبرهم   
أَحْقَابًا      احقبا   
أَحْيَاكُمْ      احىكم    
أَحْيَاهَا      احىها    
أَخْبَارِكُمْ      اخبركم   
أَخْبَارَهَا      اخبرها   
إِخْرَاجٍ      اخرج   
إِخْرَاجًا      اخرجا   
إِخْرَاجِكُمْ      اخرجكم   
أَخْطَأْنَا      اخطنا    
أُخَالِفَكُمْ      اخلفكم    
أَدْبَارِكُمْ      ادبركم   
أَدْبَارِهَآ      ادبرها   
ٱدَّارَكُوا۟      ادركوا   
أَدْعِيَآءَكُمْ      ادعىكم   
أَذَاقَهُم      اذقهم    
ءَاذَانِنَا      اذننا   
ءَاذَانِهِمْ      اذنهم   
أَرْبَابًا      ارببا   
ٱرْتَابُوٓا۟      ارتبوا   
أَرْجَآئِهَا      ارجىها    
أَرْحَامُكُمْ      ارحمكم   
أَرْحَامِهِنَّ      ارحمهن   
أَرَاغِبٌ      ارغب    
ٱزْدَادُوا۟      ازددوا   
أَسْبَاطًا      اسبطا    
ٱسْتَجَابُوا۟      استجبوا   
ٱسْتَجَارَكَ      استجرك   
ٱسْتِكْبَارًا      استكبرا    
ٱسْتَكَانُوا۟      استكنوا    
إِسْرَارًا      اسررا   
إِسْرَارَهُمْ      اسررهم   
إِسْرَافًا      اسرفا   
أَسْفَارًۢا      اسفرا   
أَسْفَارِنَا      اسفرنا   
أَسَاوِرَ      اسور   
أَشْتَاتًا      اشتتا   
أَشْرَاطُهَا      اشرطها   
ٱشْمَأَزَّتْ      اشمزت    
أَشْيَاعَكُمْ      اشىعكم    
إِصْلَاحٌ      اصلح   
أَصْنَامٍ      اصنم   
أَصْنَامًا      اصنما   
أَصْوَافِهَا      اصوفها   
أَضْعَافًا      اضعفا   
أَضَاعُوا۟      اضعوا    
أَضَلَّانَا      اضلنا    
أَطْرَافِهَا      اطرفها    
إِطْعَامُ      اطعم   
ٱطْمَأْنَنتُمْ      اطمننتم   
أَطْوَارًا      اطورا    
أَعْجَازُ      اعجز    
إِعْرَاضًا      اعرضا   
إِعْرَاضُهُمْ      اعرضهم   
أَعْقَابِنَا      اعقبنا   
أَعْنَاقِ      اعنق    
أَعْنَاقِهِمْ      اعنقهم   
أَفَبِعَذَابِنَا      افبعذبنا   
أَفْوَاجًا      افوجا   
أَقْدَامَكُمْ      اقدمكم   
أَقْدَامَنَا      اقدمنا   
أَقْطَارِهَا      اقطرها   
أَقْفَالُهَآ      اقفلها    
ٱكْتَالُوا۟      اكتلوا    
أَكُفَّارُكُمْ      اكفركم   
أَكْمَامِهَا      اكممها    
ٱلْأَحَادِيثِ      الاحدىث   
ٱلْأَرَآئِكِ      الارىك    
ٱلْأَسْوَاقِ      الاسوق   
ٱلْإِصْبَاحِ      الاصبح    
ٱلْأَصْفَادِ      الاصفد    
ٱلْأَصْنَامَ      الاصنم   
ٱلْأَعْرَافِ      الاعرف   
ٱلْأَعْنَاقِ      الاعنق   
ٱلْءَافَاقِ      الافق   
ٱلْأَقْدَامَ      الاقدم   
ٱلْأَقَاوِيلِ      الاقوىل   
ٱلْأَلْوَاحَ      الالوح   
ٱلْأَمَانَةَ      الامنه   
ٱلْأَمَانِىُّ      الامنى   
ٱلْإِنفَاقِ      الانفق   
ٱلْأَوْتَادِ      الاوتد   
ٱلْءَايَٰتُ      الاىت   
ٱلْبَارِئُ      البرى   
ٱلْبَأْسَ      البس   
ٱلْبَأْسَآءُ      البسا   
ٱلْبَاقِينَ      البقىن    
ٱلْبَآئِسَ      البىس    
ٱلتَّابُوتِ      التبوت   
ٱلتَّرَاقِىَ      الترقى    
ٱلتَّكَاثُرُ      التكثر   
ٱلتَّمَاثِيلُ      التمثىل   
ٱلتَّنَاوُشُ      التنوش   
ٱلثَّاقِبُ      الثقب   
ٱلثَّالِثَةَ      الثلثه   
ٱلْجَاهِلُ      الجهل   



Wakas

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Re: History of the Qur'an - great research
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2020, 08:15:58 AM »
peace pcborg,

It would be helpful if you can provide some examples of some of the best insights/findings he has (as it is a rather long series).

I watched the first video and he asks some decent questions. (although I obviously wasn't a fan of his use of Traditional Hadith sometimes)
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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