Author Topic: RIBA from the Quran perspective  (Read 423 times)

Iyyaka

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 159
RIBA from the Quran perspective
« on: June 27, 2019, 01:26:05 PM »
Salam Everyone,

Etymologically, the word ribâ is derived from the root rabâ whose primary meaning is to increase, to swell, to grow..

So, i personnally translate RIBA as "Overload" like an EXTRA which is not included in the original transaction.
RIBA, in the Quran, refers to a specific attitude : It is "ribâ al–jâhiliya" which means : "If the borrower could not repay the loan by the agreed due date, then the lender would postpone the repayment to another term but also DOUBLING the AMOUNT DUE." and so take advantage of a weak situation to increase his capital…

- - - - - - Proofs from al-quran - - - - - -

   (1) At the end of the ayat (30:39) appears these words from God (after the word RIBA) : "...these are the ones who will get the DOUBLE."
Also, in the ayat (30:38), the arabic word amwâl/Goods is a generic term for both currency and all forms of goods such as barley, dates, livestock, etc.

   (2) (3:130) "O rallied ! Do not consume Overload/Extra(-loan)/riba by DOUBLING/aḍ‘âfan REDOUBLED/muḍâ‘afa, and fear God so that you may prosper "

   (3) (74:6) "And (do) not confer favor (to) acquire more,"

Now, here is the good behavior from Quran perspective if someone can not pay on the due date :
   (2:280) " And if is the (debtor) in difficulty, then (1) POSTPONEMENT until ease. And if you (2)REMIT as CHARITY (it is) better for you, if you know".

Just a remark : just before this ayat the word "RIBA" appears 5 times ! (in ayats 2:275 to 2:278 - only 8 times in the entire Quran)

So, logically, the LONGER ayat from Al-Quran comes after these written passages to protect the debtor :
   (2:282) "O you who rallied when you contract with one another any DEBT FOR A TERM FIXED then write it…"

Peace .
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

Mazhar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 7236
  • Gender: Male
Re: RIBA from the Quran perspective
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2019, 05:56:58 PM »
Learned Ibn Faris [died 1005] had described the basic perception infolded in the Root in these words:
ربي/أ (مقاييس اللغة)

الراء والباء والحرف المعتل وكذلك المهموز منه يدلُّ على أصلٍ واحد، وهو الزِّيادة والنَّماء والعُلُوّ.

That it leads to the perception of increase, augmentation, raise; and growth; elevation; piling; superiority.

The concept of Compounding

The Compound Interest on lent money

http://haqeeqat.pk/Economics-ArRiba.htm

Jafar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 3831
  • Gender: Male
Re: RIBA from the Quran perspective
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2019, 11:11:56 PM »
Etymologically, the word ribâ is derived from the root rabâ whose primary meaning is to increase, to swell, to grow..

So, i personnally translate RIBA as "Overload" like an EXTRA which is not included in the original transaction.
RIBA, in the Quran, refers to a specific attitude : It is "ribâ al–jâhiliya" which means : "If the borrower could not repay the loan by the agreed due date, then the lender would postpone the repayment to another term but also DOUBLING the AMOUNT DUE." and so take advantage of a weak situation to increase his capital

take advantage of a weak situation to increase his capital <-- This is the essence.

Taking advantage of the plight faced by another person for your own selfish gain.

There are 1 million ways to do the above, thus it's not only applicable to loan-credit agreement, it can also be applicable to other business agreement or political agreement.


Jane

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 182
  • Gender: Female
Re: RIBA from the Quran perspective
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2019, 02:06:04 PM »
My understanding is that it is any amount of Interest. Same as Usury = Interest. Not just excessive Interest. Any amount.
I'm suspicious of anyone who tries to claim Usury only means excessive interest. Zionist sympathisers is what they are.
PEACE

Jafar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 3831
  • Gender: Male
Re: RIBA from the Quran perspective
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2019, 04:41:04 PM »
My understanding is that it is any amount of Interest. Same as Usury = Interest. Not just excessive Interest. Any amount.

Any amount? really? Including ZERO (0) or NEGATIVE (-)?

Quote
I'm suspicious of anyone who tries to claim Usury only means excessive interest. Zionist sympathisers is what they are.
What does Zionist got to do with this? Or it's enemy Arab Nationalist?


Jane

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 182
  • Gender: Female
Re: RIBA from the Quran perspective
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2019, 04:57:12 PM »
Zero or minus is not an amount of anything. And Interest is something Zionist bankers (Jewish moneylenders on speed) pushed on the world. The Torah warned them against Usury but they redefined it so they could get round the ruling. If you support the taking of interest then you're a Zionist as far as I'm concerned.
PEACE

Iyyaka

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 159
Re: RIBA from the Quran perspective
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2019, 09:43:03 AM »
Salam brother Jafar,

take advantage of a weak situation to increase his capital <-- This is the essence.
In fact not really. This is the cause/reason for the riba condemnation but it is not RIBA itself.

Quote
There are 1 million ways to do the above, thus it's not only applicable to loan-credit agreement, it can also be applicable to other business agreement or political agreement.
Not really. Quran is precise.
We need first to understand al-quran before to Apply to our modern world.
Let me explain more...RIBA = To GIVE MORE than what is DUE FOLLOWING an initial AGREEMENT..

To better understand we must also understand the word "l-bayʿu" (quote in 2:275 comparing with the word "Riba") and the difference with the word trade-business/tijāratun in (24:37). In both cases there is the idea of transactions but "bai'a" requires a contract, a mutual agreement : It's a barter.
This agreement may be of two categories:
   - Immediate : Like 10 dates against 1 chicken right now => No need for written agreement (2:282 -> ...except if it is a trade to be done on the spot between you…)
   - Postponed= Debt due. It is in this context that the practice of RIBA MAY occurs...Let's look at an example :

Example: I take you 1 chicken today (01/01/2020) and I payback you with 10 dates (without interest) or with 11 dates (with interest) in 3 months at 01/04/2020.
2 possible cases:
- The 01/04/2020 : I payback my debt according to the agreement concluded (like 11 dates) : OK
- The 01/04/2020 : I do not payback my debt according to the initial agreement (11 dates to give) because for example of economic/financial difficulties. So now I must payback : 11 * 2 = 22 dates on the 01/07/2020. This  surplus/swelling of 11 dates (22-11) is called RIBA = KO (from quran perspective)
- Then, the 01/07/2020, if I do not payback my debt according to the agreement my debt swells and i have now 22 * 2 = 44 dates to provide on the 01/10/2020. This surplus of 22 dates (44-22) is called RIBA = KO
etc...

General remark (@Jane) : In addition to our intra-Quranic demonstration, we must remember that the term in Arabic for a financial loan interest is Fâ'ida and not Ribâ!
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

Jafar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 3831
  • Gender: Male
Re: RIBA from the Quran perspective
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2019, 06:29:53 AM »
Salam brother Jafar,
In fact not really. This is the cause/reason for the riba condemnation but it is not RIBA itself.

Exactly... but this is what matter the most anyway.
Do not oppress other people, treat others in the same manner as you would like to be treated.
Which form the basic law of empathy.


Quote
Not really. Quran is precise.
We need first to understand al-quran before to Apply to our modern world.
Let me explain more...RIBA = To GIVE MORE than what is DUE FOLLOWING an initial AGREEMENT..

The true test is always what happened when problem arises.
Riba or no riba doesn't really matter.

Example:
A contract stated that party A borrows $10 for one month to party B.
Party B need to return $10 at the end of the month to party A. 
(Thus not more than what party B initially borrows, no "more than what is due" or anything)
Look legit.. so far.. then came additional clauses..

If Party B fail to return $10 in full at the end of the month to party A, then Party B will handover his daughter as slave to party A.

Now the agreement starting to get evil...

Party A will try to make party B failed to return the amount being borrowed as on the case of payment failure Party A will have more benefits (opposite interest).

And putting some historical context, loan / credit agreement was the primary cause of why somebody slipped down to become a slave during ancient to medieval era. The other causes were due to losing a war (becoming prisoner of war which then be sold as slaves by the winner).


Iyyaka

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 159
Re: RIBA from the Quran perspective
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2019, 11:40:54 AM »
Salam Jafar,

We are agree on the main message of the Quran about how to treat weak people.

Perhaps 2 small details which separate us from Quran Perspective :
1) RIBA is FORBIDDEN for weak like for rich people (it is a question to be fair)
2) "loan/credit agreement" is not a problem (authorize from quran perspective) but to become a slave because of economic problems from paying his debt is a bad behavior. But it is not about RIBA (slave as a result of RIBA ? i Don't know)
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

Jafar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 3831
  • Gender: Male
Re: RIBA from the Quran perspective
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2019, 09:34:13 PM »
Salam Jafar,

We are agree on the main message of the Quran about how to treat weak people.

The "Treat others as you like to be treated" is the foundation law, the basic law of empathy.

Quote
Perhaps 2 small details which separate us from Quran Perspective :
1) RIBA is FORBIDDEN for weak like for rich people (it is a question to be fair)
2) "loan/credit agreement" is not a problem (authorize from quran perspective) but to become a slave because of economic problems from paying his debt is a bad behavior. But it is not about RIBA (slave as a result of RIBA ? i Don't know)

My main point, interest / profit sharing is not the key issue.
The key issue is oppression, with or without 'Riba', oppression can happen, slavery can happen (as it was common in the past).

In majority countries today, slavery has been outlawed, thus such agreement/contract I've put forth as an example above can be considered as null and void.

Plus in majority of countries today, there's a fair bankruptcy law in place to protect the basic rights of those who cannot repay it's debt (with or without interest). And when it happened massively, the government usually steps in to payout the debts. Nobody will need to fall into slavery or servitude.