Author Topic: Nineteen years trying to figure out Ramadan and I still don't get it.  (Read 2261 times)

brook

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Re: Nineteen years trying to figure out Ramadan and I still don't get it.
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2019, 10:05:52 PM »
RaMaDan: scorching
TaRaMoD: inhumane hunting in hot time of the year (Ayman).

He hunted the gazelles
  pursuing them until,
  their legs being dislocated by the vehemently-heated ground,
  he took them.
(Lane’s Lexicon, taRaMoD)

Gazelles* are found in small groups of 3-8 individuals… 
Mating occurs in October-Novemeber…
The gestation period is 180 days…
Births usually occur from April to May.
SUCKLING may last up to 3 months.   

O you who believe,
God will test you with some of the game for hunting
coming within reach of your hands
(5:94);
do not kill any game while you are restricted (5:95).

What this shows to me is that
Shahr Ramadan
is the first restricted full moon after gazelles give birth in April to May,
rising always** right after the summer solstice.

This was the way it was when the Quran was revealed
and this is the way it is now.

_________________________________________________________

* https://animaldiversity.org/accounts/Gazella_gazella/
** http://astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases2001.html

Jul. 05, 2001 --- Jul. 05, 2020
Jun 24, 2002 --- Jun 24, 2021
Jul. 13, 2003 --- Jul. 13, 2022
Jul. 02, 2004 --- Jul. 02, 2023
Jun 22, 2005 --- Jun 22, 2024
Jul. 11, 2006 --- Jul. 11, 2025
Jun 30, 2007 --- Jun 30, 2026
Jul. 18, 2008 --- Jul. 18, 2027
Jul. 07, 2009 --- Jul. 07, 2028
Jun 26, 2010 --- Jun 26, 2029
Jul. 15, 2011 --- Jul. 15, 2030
Jul. 03, 2012 --- Jul. 03, 2031
Jun 23, 2013 --- Jun 23, 2032
Jul. 12, 2014 --- Jul. 12, 2033
Jul. 02, 2015
Jul. 19, 2016
Jul. 09, 2017
Jun 28, 2018
Jul. 16, 2019

brook

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Re: Nineteen years trying to figure out Ramadan and I still don't get it.
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2019, 08:33:08 PM »
The full moon dates from year 597 onwards
are the same as the full moon dates from 1982 on
due to the Metonic sycle.

So Prophet Muhammad
witnessed the Scorching Full Moon
on the following 33 nights.

Please note
that 12 of these Shahr Ramadans each
initiates a series of full moons made up of 13 full moons.
The arrow (--->) indicates the 13-moon series.

01) Jul. 05, 597/1982*   
02) Jun 25, 598/1983* ---> 1
03) Jul. 13, 599/1984 
04) Jul. 02, 600/1985 
05) Jun 22, 601/1986 ----> 2
06) Jul. 11, 602/1987 
07) Jun 29, 603/1988 ----> 3
08) Jul. 18, 604/1989 
09) Jul. 08, 605/1990 
10) Jun 27, 606/1991 ----> 4
11) Jul. 14, 607/1992 
12) Jul. 03, 608/1993 
13) Jun 23, 609/1994 ----> 5
14) Jul. 12, 610/1995 
15) Jul. 01, 611/1996  ----> 6
16) Jul. 20, 612/1997
17) Jul. 09, 613/1998 
18) Jun 28, 614/1999 ----> 7
19) Jul. 16, 615/2000 
20) Jul. 05, 616/2001 
21) Jun 25, 617/2002 ----> 8
22) Jul. 13, 618/2003 
23) Jul. 02, 619/2004   
24) Jun 22, 620/2005 ----> 9
25) Jul. 11, 621/2006 
26) Jun 29, 622/2007 ---> 10
27) Jul. 18, 623/2008 
28) Jul. 08, 624/2009   
29) Jun 27, 625/2010 ---> 11
30) Jul. 14, 626/2011   
31) Jul. 03, 627/2012 
32) Jun 23, 628/2013 ---> 12
33) Jul. 12, 629/2014*   

01) Jul. 02, 630/2015* --->1
...
_________________________________________________

* https://www.moonsighting.com/actual-saudi-dates.pdf


ayman

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Re: Nineteen years trying to figure out Ramadan and I still don't get it.
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2019, 01:10:38 PM »
I don't even know how to spell it! Is it Ramadan or Ramadhan or Ramazan? I have seen all three used.
Kill me.
Just kill me now.
 :giveup:

Peace Jane,

It doesn?t matter how you transliterate a word. Transliteration doesn?t help in understanding, translation does.

The word means ?scorching heat?... so just by translating it you are already very close to the timing without anyone killing you :)

Be weary of anyone who doesn?t translate any concept that you are trying to understand. This is what kept you running in circles all those years.

The full-moon of scorching heat (shahr ramadan)  is the first full-moon after the summer solstice.

This subject is very simple but at the same time can be very difficult. This is expected since the timing can only be known by those who the god has guided.

... and you shall magnify the god for what he has guided you (2:185)

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

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Re: Nineteen years trying to figure out Ramadan and I still don't get it.
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2019, 01:32:07 PM »
However, if you read more into the Quran, you will find that the Arabs had been guilty of "manipulating" the sacred months by distorting the times to insert the extra month (intercalary) thata balanced the lunar and solar calendars:

Peace brother Layth,

I am sure many here have read the great reading many times and personally I don?t remember any verse stating that the Arabs or anyone manipulated the meaning of the word ?ramadan? and changed it from cold (December) or mild/equal (September) to scorching heat. It is the god who said ?ramadan? in 2:185 not the Arabs. So unless you are claiming that the word meaning was originally cold and the Arabs changed it to scorching heat, your theory is not aligned with the great reading or the Arabic language, just like the Hijri calendar where the meaning of the months became arbitrary and false.

Have you seen how big the trunk of a palm tree is? Do you really think a pregnant woman in severe labor pain can have the force to simply collect the dates by shaking the trunk of a palm tree or is there divine intervention? I would suggest you go in September and shake a palm tree and see if dates fall on your head. Why do you think laborers climb up palm trees to collect the harvest when it is so easy to simply shake it and collect the dates? Also, different varieties of dates mature at different times of the year. For example, in the Sinai I have seen some varieties mature in July.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

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Re: Nineteen years trying to figure out Ramadan and I still don't get it.
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2019, 02:57:09 PM »
Shahr cannot mean ?full moon? as that would throw off a number of verses which speak of child waning lasting 30 months and the fasting of 2 consecutive months In certain circumstances as well as the waiting for divorce 3 months or 3 menstruations.

Peace brother Layth,

Actually, menstruations are cyclical events just like the full-moon. They are not continuous 28-31 days consecutive periods like months. Therefore, the great reading using the same terminology for counting menstruations further confirms the Lisan Alarab dictionary meaning of ?shahr? as full-moon.

Peace,

Ayman

Layth

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Re: Nineteen years trying to figure out Ramadan and I still don't get it.
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2019, 08:58:54 AM »
Salam Ayman,

Quote
I am sure many here have read the great reading many times and personally I don?t remember any verse stating that the Arabs or anyone manipulated the meaning of the word ?ramadan? and changed it from cold (December) or mild/equal (September) to scorching heat. It is the god who said ?ramadan? in 2:185 not the Arabs. So unless you are claiming that the word meaning was originally cold and the Arabs changed it to scorching heat, your theory is not aligned with the great reading or the Arabic language, just like the Hijri calendar where the meaning of the months became arbitrary and false.

You seem to have misunderstood my post. In 9:37 god admonishes the rejecters for playing around with the system of the intercalary month so as to circumvent God's restrictions (by adding it one year and skipping it in the next). As a result, the 12 months shift out of their place and thus the rejecters (like today) say they are obeying God when they have moved the entire landscape.

Thus, if the Arab speakers had designed a calendar (1-12months) that was based on the seasons (hence the names Rabea, Ramadhan), and if these Arab speakers knew they were not allowed to hunt in 4 months (say 3,4, 5, and 6) - but they wanted to because those were the months that wild game was most vulnerable -  and if they did what our Sunni/Shia's of today did by letting the calendar slip (as God tells us), then it goes without much debate that "Ramadhan" would have a 1 in 12 chance of being in its correct seasonal position when the Quran was revealed.

Conclusion: You can't make the statement that the Quran was revealed in the proper place of Ramadhan (scortching heat) unless you willfully ignore 9:37. We can only state with certainty that the Quran was revealed in the month "named" Ramadhan at that juncture in time.

Quote
Have you seen how big the trunk of a palm tree is? Do you really think a pregnant woman in severe labor pain can have the force to simply collect the dates by shaking the trunk of a palm tree or is there divine intervention? I would suggest you go in September and shake a palm tree and see if dates fall on your head. Why do you think laborers climb up palm trees to collect the harvest when it is so easy to simply shake it and collect the dates? Also, different varieties of dates mature at different times of the year. For example, in the Sinai I have seen some varieties mature in July.

Your understanding is incorrect for 2 reasons:

1) Palm trees give fruit when they are still under 1m in height (I have palm trees and my small children can eat the dates directly from the tree).
2) The Quran does not tell Mary to "shake the trunk of the palm tree" - it says "shake towards you with the trunk of the palm tree". The difference in Arabic is small, but the meaning changes.

`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

ayman

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Re: Nineteen years trying to figure out Ramadan and I still don't get it.
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2019, 02:19:57 AM »
You seem to have misunderstood my post. In 9:37 god admonishes the rejecters for playing around with the system of the intercalary month so as to circumvent God's restrictions (by adding it one year and skipping it in the next). As a result, the 12 months shift out of their place and thus the rejecters (like today) say they are obeying God when they have moved the entire landscape.

Thus, if the Arab speakers had designed a calendar (1-12months) that was based on the seasons (hence the names Rabea, Ramadhan), and if these Arab speakers knew they were not allowed to hunt in 4 months (say 3,4, 5, and 6) - but they wanted to because those were the months that wild game was most vulnerable -  and if they did what our Sunni/Shia's of today did by letting the calendar slip (as God tells us), then it goes without much debate that "Ramadhan" would have a 1 in 12 chance of being in its correct seasonal position when the Quran was revealed.

Conclusion: You can't make the statement that the Quran was revealed in the proper place of Ramadhan (scortching heat) unless you willfully ignore 9:37. We can only state with certainty that the Quran was revealed in the month "named" Ramadhan at that juncture in time.

Your understanding is incorrect for 2 reasons:

1) Palm trees give fruit when they are still under 1m in height (I have palm trees and my small children can eat the dates directly from the tree).
2) The Quran does not tell Mary to "shake the trunk of the palm tree" - it says "shake towards you with the trunk of the palm tree". The difference in Arabic is small, but the meaning changes.

Doesn?t matter what the calendar is. The term scorching heat is a description in the Quran just like winter (شتاء) and late spring (صيف) in 106:2

إِيلَافِهِمْ رِحْلَةَ الشِّتَاءِ وَالصَّيْفِ
 [الجزء: ٣٠ | قريش ١٠٦ | الآية: ٢]

What you are saying is that the Arabs distortion of their calendar actually moved the cosmic phenomena of scorching heat, winter and late spring around. In this case the Arabs performed a cosmic miracle no prophet ever performed :)

As far as the palm tree the passage says she shook the trunk towards her which means not just shaking but also bending the trunk ... an even more difficult feat ... no matter what the size of the palm tree.

Peace,

Ayman

Layth

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Re: Nineteen years trying to figure out Ramadan and I still don't get it.
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2019, 03:01:57 AM »
Dear Ayman,

You are not making any sense in your response.

I am stating a specific verse that speaks of an actual event/behavior that was done to impact the sequence of the months, and you are simply repeating the same old statement "Ramadhan means scorching heat!"

For the palm tree...I leave you to ponder the verses when you are in a more objective mode.

I have nothing to add.
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

ayman

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Re: Nineteen years trying to figure out Ramadan and I still don't get it.
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2019, 03:24:23 AM »
You are not making any sense in your response.

I am stating a specific verse that speaks of an actual event/behavior that was done to impact the sequence of the months, and you are simply repeating the same old statement "Ramadhan means scorching heat!"

For the palm tree...I leave you to ponder the verses when you are in a more objective mode.

I have nothing to add.

Peace Layth,

It will not make sense to you just like it didn?t make sense to Jane for 19 years and just like it didn?t make sense to Sunnis for hundreds of years. What you all have in common is that you take the word ?ramadan? that the god selected as the meaningless proper name of some Arab month in a false calendar. You are assuming that the god has to conform and submit to the Arab distorted calendar. Until you grasp the simple fact that the term scorching heat just like winter and late spring is a meaningful description of a cosmic phenomenon independent of Arabs then you will stay tied at the umbilical cord to some guy who invented a false calendar that you are in doubt about.

When you cut your umbilical cord and get over the mental block of the meaningless proper name then you will be able to add a lot.

Peace and all the best,

Ayman