Author Topic: Nineteen years trying to figure out Ramadan and I still don't get it.  (Read 1155 times)

The Sardar

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Re: Nineteen years trying to figure out Ramadan and I still don't get it.
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2019, 12:25:24 PM »
What makes more sense to me is the equinox, eother north or south because it would not change all that much that it is south or north, whereas with the scorching whatever, it turns always into those defferences where some people have to fast for one hour and other people have to fast 23 hours.

As to using the Christian calendars to fix Isa's birthday... it may be like jumping from the pan into the fire.

Salaam
Ouch.

Layth

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Re: Nineteen years trying to figure out Ramadan and I still don't get it.
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2019, 11:17:21 PM »
Salam,

Quote
As to using the Christian calendars to fix Isa's birthday... it may be like jumping from the pan into the fire.

I'm not sure what you mean here as the Christian calendar is a pure solar one, whilst the Quran uses a luni-solar.

As to Jesus's birthday, that is concluded by deducting 9 months from when the dates ripen (August/September).
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

huruf

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Re: Nineteen years trying to figure out Ramadan and I still don't get it.
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2019, 12:56:32 AM »
You are right, Layth, you did not put the christian calendar to show anything. And all your deductions on that post are strictly quranic based. I by myself do not know when dates are ripe. For thoroughness sake I have consulted the tima when the dates become ripe. I suppose tht it epends on the vrieties and also the places. For the dates of Elche, in Spain, which are the most common variety it says that they become ripe in autumn which might leave august out, but I suppose that depending on climate the limits may be stretched.

Sorry for my misunderstanding. May be by now I am so conscious of the undue assumptions imposed on the Qur'an by "christian sources" that I react even when there is no need for it.

Salaam

brook

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Re: Nineteen years trying to figure out Ramadan and I still don't get it.
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2019, 07:54:37 PM »
Salam,

I'm not sure what you mean here as the Christian calendar is a pure solar one, whilst the Quran uses a luni-solar.

As to Jesus's birthday, that is concluded by deducting 9 months from when the dates ripen (August/September).


Yes, the year system which the Quran uses is solar
but its months are not shahrs
because SHAHR which the Quran mentions in 2:185, 9:36 and 10:5 (moon phase) is FULL MOON;
it is not month.

So the year in the Quran
is simply solar;
it is not lunisolar. 

For example in the time span
from summer solstice 2015 to summer solstice 2016
there are 13 shahrs:

01. Ramadan* -----------> Jul 02, 2015 (First crescent, Jun 16, is 5 days before Jun 21).
02. Shawwal -------------> Jul 31
03. Zul-Qa’dah ----------> Aug 29
04. Zul-Hijjah -----------> Sep 28
05. Muharram -----------> Oct 27
06. Safar  ----------------> Nov 25
07. Rabi-Al-Awwal--------> Dec 25
08. Rabi-Al-Thani --------> Jan 24
09. Jumada-Al-Awwal ----> Feb 22
10. Jumada-Al-Thani -----> Mar 23
11. Rajab  ----------------> Apr 22
12. Shaban ---------------> May 21
13. ??????-------------------> Jun 20, 2016 (Last crescent, Jul 04, is 14 days after Jun 21).

01. Jul. 19, 2016

 
If SHAHR was a lunar month lasting 29.5 days
13 shahrs would be 384 days long
and they woluld not have enough room in the 365-day time-span.


384 – 365 = 19

They have enough room now
because they are full moon nights
like laylatul qadr.

The 19 days are placed
before and after the 365-day span between the two solstices;
that is, OUTSIDE the 365-day time-span.

__________________________________________________________

* https://www.moonsighting.com/actual-saudi-dates.pdf

Jane

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Re: Nineteen years trying to figure out Ramadan and I still don't get it.
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2019, 03:47:45 AM »
Thanks for your replies everyone.

I agree shahr is probably the full moon phase only (1-3 nights). There was no concept of a month in olden times, that's a Roman invention. (As is a rotating weekly cycle). Prior to that the solar quarter-days and/or the cross-quarter days and the 12 full moons were the markers in most cultures. Except for the Israelites who were forced to have an additional marker ever lunar quarter...until Yeshua came to relieve them of it.





Shahr must mean the full moon.

I was 90% sure Shahr Ramadan was thus the full moon after Litha (summer solstice) since 90% of Muslims state that Ramadan means scorching heat so yes that would be after then.Therefore the total full moon was the Special Night. Then I watched those videos which seem to confirm that the Arabs pre-Muhammad had Ramadhan at the END of summer and now I'm back to square one!

Layth - I see where you're going but the videos make sense and I've now read a few Aabic speakers saying the root of Ramadan is Ramadiyu which means the end of summer rain??


It makes total sense that the full moons had set points in the year starting with with winter solstice, in old Arabia like other areas:



I am just so confused even more though because if Shahr Ramadan is the 9th full moon then it's likely the one closest to Mabon (the autumn equinox) which is the Harvest Moon in old European tradition. This would be the worst time of the year to be fasting!! Because of all the physical work needed at that time.


How could God mandate this. That's what I meant by being even more confused. Surely that means Ramadan is just a commandment for the Ishmaelites.

Although our friend Joseph doesn't see an issue:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cOG1XeZ0xzI

It's also no longer clear to me whether the Special Night is the same as Shahr Ramadan at all. I can't see it being Winter Solstice. I accept that Yeshua/Isa was born in the autumn but we have no way of knowing when he was conceived. Saying his conception was at winter solstice assumes two things:
1) that his gestation was definitely 9 months; we don't know that, it wasn't a standard conception so maybe it wasn't a standard gestation, he could have even been premature we don't know.
2) that the only day angels descend is 1 night a year. Seems unlikely?? Zechariah was also visited and told about Yahya. Was that also winter solstice? And Abraham and Sarah were visited by Gabriel too. I think if the Jews were used to being visited by angels on winter solstice they would have made it part of their culture but there's no significant winter solstice celebration in Judaism that I know of.

Perhaps to be on the safe side we should just fast every 100% full moon day, dawn til dusk, so we're covered!

I'm praying I will understand Ramadan sometime before I die, God-willing!
PEACE

A Submitter

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Re: Nineteen years trying to figure out Ramadan and I still don't get it.
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2019, 05:13:33 AM »
Since 2000 then when I was studying Islam intensively at school in R.E. lessons.

2 translations of the Quran purchased.

Both of them read all the way through at least once.

Numerous other translations studied.

A few visits to Arab countries.

A few friendships with Sunnis.

A few years being a member of the Rashad Kahalifa cult.

8 years membership of this forum.

Many threads read about it on this and other websites.

Lots of time pondering it on my own.

Several attempts at Ramadan Sunni style (including one successful month).

A fair amount of mockery from family.

NINETEEN YEARS.

A whole Metonic cycle?(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonic_cycle)

But I still don't understand what the instruction is! The thing that currently makes the most sense to me is to fast the full moon following the summer solstice, so 3 days, darkness excluded. But even then I am not sure if it applies to people outside of Arabia as well or even if women are included at all?!

I don't even know how to spell it! Is it Ramadan or Ramadhan or Ramazan? I have seen all three used.

Kill me.

Just kill me now.

 :giveup:
Peace,

Somewhat late, but Ramadhan hasn't begun yet this year, in fact, right now is the four restricted months and it will soon end. So you are practicing something else that the Sunnis and Shias has slapped the name Ramadhan on.
First, you must be able to answer this question yourself; how do you come to the conclusion that Ramadhan this year was in June like the sectarians say? Or do you follow what they say blindly? How do you gather information from Quran and conclude that Ramadhan this year was in June (while it is the four restricted months which are separate from Ramadhan)? The point being that if you don't know when Ramadhan is, you don't have to do it sectarian style or any style, for God has not granted you this knowledge yet.

Anyway, if you want the real timing of Ramadhan, I recommend you read The Natural Republic, which presents the proof for the timing, unlike the sectarians who only guess everything and make up lies.

The next Ramadhan begins around November or December.

If you don't want to read the whole book, then you should begin with Chapter 13, and then continue with Chapter 16 and finally Chapter 18. It's the same as what brother Layth said, but he goes deeper into the topic in the book.

Remember to confirm everything yourself;
17:36 And  do  not  uphold  what  you  have  no  knowledge  of;  for  the  hearing,  and  eyesight,  and  mind—all  these  you  are  responsible  for.

And ask God that He increases your knowledge.

https://www.free-minds.org/sites/default/files/TNR_0.pdf

Peace

Layth

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Re: Nineteen years trying to figure out Ramadan and I still don't get it.
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2019, 11:59:09 AM »
Dear Jane,

Shahr cannot mean ?full moon? as that would throw off a number of verses which speak of child waning lasting 30 months and the fasting of 2 consecutive months In certain circumstances as well as the waiting for divorce 3 months or 3 menstruations.
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

brook

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Re: Nineteen years trying to figure out Ramadan and I still don't get it.
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2019, 01:51:54 AM »
...Layth - I see where you're going but the videos make sense and I've now read a few Aabic speakers saying the root of Ramadan is Ramadiyu which means the end of summer rain??

Ayman too is an Arabic speaker;
and he says this
about the root and meaning* of Ramadan:

We know that one of the meanings of a derivitive of "RMD" ("TaRaMoD") means inhumane hunting in the hot time of the year by chasing an animal until its legs burn from the heat and it falls. Hunters can catch animals this way with their hands without using weapons (see 5:94 reference to catching prey by hands).

The hot time of the year is when young animals are newly born and are relying on their mother so killing the mother means sentencing her newborns to death by dehydration and starvation.

Notice that out of the punishments listed for violating the hunting restriction in 5:95 fasting is the only one followed by the reason being so that the hunter "tastes the consequence of his deed".

How does the hunter taste the consequence of his deed by fasting? He experiences the thirst and hunger of the wild animal during the hot time of the year when hunting is restricted.

This is why fasting was decreed. It is not to feel the suffering of the poor as people contend. The poor are not given a license not to fast. It is to feel the suffering of the wild life that we as leaders of the earth must take good care of. This is why we fast with the beginning of the hunting restriction.

______________________________________________________

*Ra-Miim-Dad,
Ta-Ra-MoD,
Lane's Lexicon, p 322, meaning 5:

He drove the gazelles
upon the ground or stones vehemently heated by the sun
until their hoofs became dissundered or dislocated
and so they were taken
...

Layth

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Re: Nineteen years trying to figure out Ramadan and I still don't get it.
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2019, 06:46:58 AM »
Dear Brook,

Quote
Ayman too is an Arabic speaker;
and he says this
about the root and meaning* of Ramadan:

It seems I have been misunderstood. I have not challenged the meaning ascribed to 'Ramadhan' of 'Scorching Heat' or 'Early Autumn'...I have however, pointed out a very obvious fact that this discussion keeps ignoring, which is that the Arabs at the time of the Prophet had altered the sequence of the months so they can circumvent the Restricted Months of hunting:

"In the use of the intercalary exists an increase in rejection; that those who have rejected may misguide with it. They make it permissible one calendar year, and forbid it one calendar year, so as to circumvent the count of what God has made forbidden; thus they make permissible what God has made forbidden. Their evil works have been adorned for them, and God does not guide the rejecting people." (Qur'an 9:37)

Therefore, even if Ramadhan in the Arabic language meant "Scorching Heat", when the Quran was revealed it was a distorted month occurring at a different time - which is why the claim that December is when the Quran is revealed makes the tracks here.

Just like Ramadhan now in the lunar calendar occurs at every season, so the argument can be made that Ramadhan of today is not "Scorching Heat" - as was originally the name when the months were distributed in a proper luni-solar system..
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

brook

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Re: Nineteen years trying to figure out Ramadan and I still don't get it.
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2019, 07:27:30 PM »
...Also, the "nasi'" was an improper intercalation introduced at the end of the year every other year to delay the hunting restriction and violate it. So this means that the restricted full moons must occur at the beginning on the year.


The way I see it
is different.

The restricted moons are not part of the (solar) year,
they are part of the full moon series from one summer solstice to the next;
so they must ocur at the beginning of the FULL MOON SERIES.

The full moon series
and the (solar) year
are different concepts.

They are so different 
that the year is always made up of the same number of units (365 plus days)
but the series of full moons has changing number of units (12/13 full moons).

The following are the times of the Scorching Full Moon
which ocurs at the beginning of 33 full moon series.

Please note
that 12 of them each comes 19 days later than the former
because there are 13 full moons in the series the former initiates
and that extra 13th full moon causes the delay.

http://astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases2001.html

Jul. 05, 2001 --- Jul. 05, 2020
Jun 24, 2002 --- Jun 24, 2021
Jul. 13, 2003 --- Jul. 13, 2022
Jul. 02, 2004 --- Jul. 02, 2023
Jun 22, 2005 --- Jun 22, 2024
Jul. 11, 2006 --- Jul. 11, 2025
Jun 30, 2007 --- Jun 30, 2026
Jul. 18, 2008 --- Jul. 18, 2027
Jul. 07, 2009 --- Jul. 07, 2028
Jun 26, 2010 --- Jun 26, 2029
Jul. 15, 2011 --- Jul. 15, 2030
Jul. 03, 2012 --- Jul. 03, 2031
Jun 23, 2013 --- Jun 23, 2032
Jul. 12, 2014 --- Jul. 12, 2033
Jul. 02, 2015
Jul. 19, 2016
Jul. 09, 2017
Jun 28, 2018
Jul. 16, 2019 

The day the year begins is man’s business;
he can decide it to be the day Jesus Christ was born
or the day Prophet Muhammad migrated.