Author Topic: So-called Hijri Calendar was not in use in (most of) 7th CE  (Read 1772 times)

Lost

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Re: So-called Hijri Calendar was not in use in (most of) 7th CE
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2018, 02:25:33 AM »
I simply do not understand why people are using PERF558 or whatever to assume that Ramadhan is the name of a month. I mean seriously, there is no evidence for that or whatsoever. If the Quran is really from God we would expect it to make use of an objective way to count time as opposed to arbitrary man-made calendars. Plus even is we suppose that Ramadhan is really the name of a month, then would the Quran just let us guess which one it is ?!?! I mean c'mon guys ahahah...

Ramadhan cannot be the name of some arbitrary arab month, it has to be a descriptive term.

huruf

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Re: So-called Hijri Calendar was not in use in (most of) 7th CE
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2018, 02:43:56 AM »
I am not very much in this question of calendars, but the idea seems interesting. It might be worthwhile to consider things from that pointo of view.

Salaam

Noon waalqalami

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Re: So-called Hijri Calendar was not in use in (most of) 7th CE
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2018, 11:50:25 AM »
With this, all the dates of the above documents, and more now perfectly match.

The Arab era started on 1st Dhu al-Qa'da which felt on 4th September 620

peace, there is an error if rolling back from Perf 558 off by three months.

https://www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?m1=01&d1=12&y1=620&m2=4&d2=26&y2=643

From and including: Saturday, January 12, 0620
To, but not including Saturday, April 26, 0643

Result: 8505 days
(8505 days) / lunar month = 288

288 / 12 = 24 [i.e. these align Jumada al-thani 1]

http://astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases0601.html
 
year new moon crescent # month
620   Jan   10      12      6 Jumada al-thani 1
620   Feb   9      11      7 Rajab 1
620   Mar   10      12      8 Sha?bān 1
620   Apr   8      10      9 Ramaḍān 1
620   May   8      10      10 Shawwāl 1
620   Jun   6      8      11 Dhū al-Qa?dah 1
620   Jul   5      7      12 Dhū al-Ḥijjah 1
620   Aug   3      5      1 Muḥarram 1
620   Sep   2      4      2 Ṣafar 1
                  
643   Apr   24      26      6 Jumada al-thani 1

jumada al-ula 30, 22 AH / April 25, 643 CE / Pharmouthi 30, the 1st indiction (Perf 558)

A last word about Qur'an: it is not clear what kind of calendar is advocated in Qur'an although Surah 12 can only make sense with a solar or luni-solar calendar.

no "calendar" only solar years solstices used (N. and S. hemispheres) for timings.

peace, slight clarification nuance in translation; usage depends on context if singular, dual, plural, group, etc.

عام ʿāmun/year (solar)
سنىن sinina/years (solar)
سنه sanatan/age/year (solar)

Lost

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Re: So-called Hijri Calendar was not in use in (most of) 7th CE
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2018, 03:48:32 AM »
peace, there is an error if rolling back from Perf 558 off by three months.

https://www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?m1=01&d1=12&y1=620&m2=4&d2=26&y2=643

From and including: Saturday, January 12, 0620
To, but not including Saturday, April 26, 0643

Result: 8505 days
(8505 days) / lunar month = 288

288 / 12 = 24 [i.e. these align Jumada al-thani 1]

http://astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases0601.html
 
year new moon crescent # month
620   Jan   10      12      6 Jumada al-thani 1
620   Feb   9      11      7 Rajab 1
620   Mar   10      12      8 Sha?bān 1
620   Apr   8      10      9 Ramaḍān 1
620   May   8      10      10 Shawwāl 1
620   Jun   6      8      11 Dhū al-Qa?dah 1
620   Jul   5      7      12 Dhū al-Ḥijjah 1
620   Aug   3      5      1 Muḥarram 1
620   Sep   2      4      2 Ṣafar 1
                  
643   Apr   24      26      6 Jumada al-thani 1

jumada al-ula 30, 22 AH / April 25, 643 CE / Pharmouthi 30, the 1st indiction (Perf 558)

no "calendar" only solar years solstices used (N. and S. hemispheres) for timings.

What would be the point of 3am and sana being the same thing in the Quran, this is linguistic redundancy in its purest form. You saying Nuh really lived 950 years???

Noon waalqalami

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Re: So-called Hijri Calendar was not in use in (most of) 7th CE
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2019, 12:15:33 PM »
What would be the point of 3am and sana being the same thing in the Quran, this is linguistic redundancy in its purest form. You saying Nuh really lived 950 years???

peace, we know little about the ancients (simply google megaliths around the globe); likewise the human body is built to live forever; auto-correcting code; eyes cells immortal; cells in human body replenish every 7 years; stomach lining cells renew every 4 days, etc.

(3) different words used ...

عام ʿāmun/year (singular 1 or 100)
عامىن āmayni/year two (dual 2 or 200)
سنىن sinina/years (plural 3-9 and 300-900)

explained ...

12:47 قال said تزرعون thou cultivating سبع sabʿa/seven (7) سنىن sinina/years
i.e. cultivating (7) individual years 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
not سبع sabʿa/seven سنه sanatan (i.e. 7-year period)
12:49 ثم furthermore ىاتى approached من from بعد after ذلك such عام ʿāmun/year (single year)

it's like ...

امراه im'ra-atun/woman (singular)
امرتىن imra-atayni/two women
نسا nisai/womenfolk (3+ plural)

whereas سنه sanatan is used for time-length.

25:37 وقوم and folk نوح noah لما to what كذبوا deny they of الرسل the messengers (i.e. 3+) اغرقنهم drowns we them وجعلنهم and made we them للناس to the humankind اىه sign ...

29:14 ولقد and surely ارسلنا sent we of نوحا nūḥan ("a noah") الى to قومه folk his فلبث so remain فىهم among them الف thousand (1,000) سنه sanatin (millennium time length) الا except خمسىن group of fifty عاما ʿāman/year of فاخذهم so seizes them الطوفان the deluge وهم and they ظلمون were unjustly




noshirk

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Re: So-called Hijri Calendar was not in use in (most of) 7th CE
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2019, 10:28:52 AM »
Salaam All   

mea culpa too.            
               
my own calculations shows also that there is a d?rivation between arabic year and solar year               
               
Document 1:https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/papyri/perf558               
Document 2: https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/papyri/enlp10.html               
Document 3: http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/MSDating.html#Indiction               
               
document 1 states that month 8 (coptic calendar) in ndiction 1 correspond to month 5 in arabic year 22               
document 2 states that month 2 in indiction 5 correspond to month 11 in arabic year 87               
               
so in respective calandar names               
Jumādā I, 22                
Dhūl-Qaʿdah, 87 AH               
               
and               
Pharmouthi (month 8 )  of the 1st indiction               
Phaphi ( month 2 ) of the 5 th indiction               
               
               
document 3 just give to what years corresponds indictions for first eight month1..               
document 1 states that indiction 1 is in 643               
document 2 states that indiction 5  is in 707.               
               
               
difference between the two arabic months is 11/87 -  5/22 =87-22+0.5=65.5               
difference between the two coptic months 2/707 -8/643 =707-643-0.5=63.5               
               
which is two years difference and that is the normal difference beween lunar and solar calandar in 65 years               
               
so it seems really that arabic calendar was lunar and used at least from 643.               
however, it was not used in the life of muhammad. So it has no "islamic" value.   It just inform us what people understood in era in wich calendar was put.            
               
this are months in coptic egyptian calendar               
               
   Bohairic   Sahidic   Coptic   Arabic[4]   
1   Ⲑⲱⲟⲩⲧ   Ⲑⲟⲟⲩⲧ   Thout   توت Tūt   August 29 - September 27
2   Ⲡⲁⲟⲡⲓ   Ⲡⲁⲱⲡⲉ   Paopi   بابه Bāba   September 28 - October 27
3   Ⲁⲑⲱⲣ   Ϩⲁⲑⲱⲣ   Hathor   هاتور Hātūr   October 28 - November 26
4   Ⲭⲟⲓⲁⲕ   Ⲕⲟⲓⲁϩⲕ   Koiak   كياك Kiyāk   November 27 - December 26
5   Ⲧⲱⲃⲓ   Ⲧⲱⲃⲉ   Tobi   طوبه Ṭūba   December 27 - January 25
6   Ⲙⲉϣⲓⲣ   Ⲙϣⲓⲣ   Meshir   أمشير Amshīr   January 26 - February 24
7   Ⲡⲁⲣⲉⲙϩⲁⲧ   Ⲡⲁⲣⲙϩⲟⲧⲡ   Paremhat   برمهات Baramhāt   February 25 - March 26
8   Ⲫⲁⲣⲙⲟⲩⲑⲓ   Ⲡⲁⲣⲙⲟⲩⲧⲉ   Parmouti   برموده Baramūda   March 27 - April 25
9   Ⲡⲁϣⲟⲛⲥ   Ⲡⲁϣⲟⲛⲥ   Pashons   بشنس Bashans   April 26 - May 25
10   Ⲡⲁⲱⲛⲓ   Ⲡⲁⲱⲛⲉ   Paoni   بؤنة Ba?ūnah   May 26 - June 24
11   Ⲉⲡⲓⲡ   Ⲉⲡⲏⲡ   Epip   أبيب Abīb   June 25 - July 24
12   Ⲙⲉⲥⲱⲣⲓ   Ⲙⲉⲥⲱⲣⲏ   Mesori   مسرى Misr?   July 25 - August 23
13   Ⲡⲓⲕⲟⲩϫⲓ ⲛ̀ⲁ̀ⲃⲟⲧ   Ⲉⲡⲁⲅⲟⲙⲉⲛⲁⲓ[5]   Pi Kogi Enavot   نسيئ Nasī?   August 24 - August 28

interesting to note the 13 th month who "arabs" choose to call nasi.
so we have two dealings with remonder days:
Coptic method; keep them in each year
Hebrew method;later them until they can make a complete month and add a complete lunar cycle in an embolismic year.



interesting also to note this:
نسي (مقاييس اللغة)
النون والسين والياء أصلانِ صحيحان: يدلُّ أحدهما على إغفال الشيء، والثاني على تَرْك شيء


والنَّسِيئة: بيعُك الشَّيءَ نَسَاءً، وهو التَّأخير. تقول: أنسأتُ.
ونَسأَ الله في أجلِك وأنسأ أجلَك: أخَّره وأبعده


that is without hamza , the meaning is to forget and with hamza the meaning is to later.
So Quran seeams to says Hebrew method is wrong.

the interesting thing also to note is that quran says that people who do nasi'a obtain the right counting some years
Since hijri is the only "full unar calendar" known, a right counting each 33 years seems very few.

I agree with bro ayman method which says to count 12 full lunar cycles and to neglect the 11 residual days in a way like coptic did
in the aim not to loose the seasons, rabii awal is in spring so ramadan is september. And siyam, whatever it is, occurs in a period where length of day is the same around the planet.

hope brother ayman make his mea culpa about the leylatou el qadr= summer solistice.
hope brother lath make his mea culpa about the leylatou el qadr= winter solistice.
i have no doubt that laylatou el qadr is equinox and there is two laylatou el qadr each year
hope also that bro pazuzu make his mea culpa about the flat earth theory and that he come back.
Both brother pazuzu and brother Ayman  and brother layth did a great work toward truth.

very interesting also the fact that 1/1/1 falls around summer solistice july 622 wich is a shar haram for me. (on shahr each three months).
i suspect this month to be the month in wich prophet died since i am convinced that hijra occured before 617.and that there was no quran before 617.
and a sch
Muhammad was a great leader and a wise and learned person before receiving quran.


Peace
noshirk=trying to never mix teachings of The unique Rabb with other teachings, and specially any kind of clerical teachings.

quincy

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Re: So-called Hijri Calendar was not in use in (most of) 7th CE
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2019, 06:01:09 AM »
Peace!

Lunisolar Calendar was in use by the most of the ancients till the church changed it to a pure solar calendar. Also the pure luni calendar is an innovation by the so loved khalif umar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbzFGEfgP_8

Our ulama justify it with the Qur'ans claim about the arbitrary adjustment of the 13th month, but it is only directed to the responsible for that manipulation during the times of the jahiliyya. The Lunisolar Calendar has a fixed system for the adjustment of the 13th month.

Year begins when the sun enters aries (spring) and ends when it leaves pisces (winter).
THE CREED OF ABRAHAM INCLINING TO TRUTH AND ABSOLUTE SUBMISSION TO THE MOST HIGH - THE LIVING AND ETERNAL GOD - THE CREATOR OF ALL