Author Topic: Those their right hands possess verses  (Read 1554 times)

huruf

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Re: Those their right hands possess verses
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2019, 09:38:25 AM »
Salaam sister huruf

I think you need to reassess it in the light of 70:29-30

وَٱلَّذِينَ هُمۡ لِفُرُوجِهِمۡ حَـٰفِظُونَ (٢٩) إِلَّا عَلَىٰٓ أَزۡوَٲجِهِمۡ أَوۡ مَا مَلَكَتۡ أَيۡمَـٰنُہُمۡ فَإِنَّہُمۡ غَيۡرُ مَلُومِينَ


And those who guard their private parts
except for their spouses who are under their oaths so they are not blamed ones.

No, it refers still to a thing, which is elided because it is known to the hearer. It is like when we call some person or pehrnomenen oin certain contextes by an acronym, we interpret what is left out, because the context and the concept is understood. In spanish I can think of some of those things spoken of today as objects because to relate the whole thing everytime would be boring and unnecessary since it is something that is in everybody's minds.

That some marriages were of the kind where an empowered and capable person had a spouse who was under his or her protection and guarantee was a well known fact, so you do not need to go into saying:


save from their spouses or from those with whom you have a marriage tie by which you are protecting and guaranteeing or you are being protected and guaranteed by the other spouse.

We kn ow that king of language economy today and <<i think it has always been known.

Salaam





 

Novice

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Re: Those their right hands possess verses
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2019, 11:43:23 PM »
That some marriages were of the kind where an empowered and capable person had a spouse who was under his or her protection and guarantee was a well known fact, so you do not need to go into saying:


save from their spouses or from those with whom you have a marriage tie by which you are protecting and guaranteeing or you are being protected and guaranteed by the other spouse.

Sister my translation used "who are" instead of "or" for أَوۡ

In 70:30 مَا مَلَكَتۡ أَيۡمَـٰنُہُمۡ is explaining أَزۡوَٲجِهِمۡ





huruf

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Re: Those their right hands possess verses
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2019, 01:39:35 PM »
OK, I understand.

Could you give some other instance in Qur'an where you would translate "aw" as "who are" or as "who is"?


Salaam 

Novice

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Re: Those their right hands possess verses
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2019, 05:57:57 AM »
OK, I understand.

Could you give some other instance in Qur'an where you would translate "aw" as "who are" or as "who is"?


Salaam

Sorry sister for late reply. Life is really busy these days for me.

2:221

وَلَا تَنكِحُواْ ٱلۡمُشۡرِكَـٰتِ حَتَّىٰ يُؤۡمِنَّ‌ۚ وَلَأَمَةٌ۬ مُّؤۡمِنَةٌ خَيۡرٌ۬ مِّن مُّشۡرِكَةٍ۬ وَلَوۡ أَعۡجَبَتۡكُمۡ‌ۗ وَلَا تُنكِحُواْ ٱلۡمُشۡرِكِينَ حَتَّىٰ يُؤۡمِنُواْ‌ۚ وَلَعَبۡدٌ۬ مُّؤۡمِنٌ خَيۡرٌ۬ مِّن مُّشۡرِكٍ۬ وَلَوۡ أَعۡجَبَكُمۡ‌ۗ

DO not marry Mushrikaat until they believe, a believing slave women is better than a Mushrika, even though she attracts you and do not give in marriage to the Mushrikeen, a believing slave man is better than a Mushrik even though he attracts you........

24:3
ٱلزَّانِى لَا يَنكِحُ إِلَّا زَانِيَةً أَوۡ مُشۡرِكَةً۬ وَٱلزَّانِيَةُ لَا يَنكِحُهَآ إِلَّا زَانٍ أَوۡ مُشۡرِكٌ۬‌ۚ وَحُرِّمَ ذَٲلِكَ عَلَى ٱلۡمُؤۡمِنِينَ


A Zani, do not marry except for a Zania who is a Mushrika
A Zania, do not marry except for a Zani who is a Mushrik and it is made unlawful for believers.

2:221 commands us not to marry a Mushrik. If we take "AW" as "OR" in 24:3 then it contradicts 2:221
If we take it as "who is" then there is no contradiction. A zani and a Zania both become Mushrik by making their desires their god and there is no restriction on marriage between two Mushrikeen.

A Mushrik is one who obeys commands of other than Allah.

25:43 أَرَءَيۡتَ مَنِ ٱتَّخَذَ إِلَـٰهَهُ ۥ هَوَٮٰهُ أَفَأَنتَ تَكُونُ عَلَيۡهِ وَڪِيلاً
Have you seen one who takes his desires as god ....

Salaam.

huruf

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Re: Those their right hands possess verses
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2019, 10:38:00 AM »
I do not think I agree with that, because then that could apply to any vice, like a slanderer, or a gambler or a lier and then there would not be any point in singling out the zaniyin as a specimen of mushrik and I think that forbidding marriage to a zany in the context of the ayas in sura an-noor has its proper meaning, in fact defeating a man can be a philanderer all is life and then when it comes to marriage wants a pure woman even virgin, but a woman who is not a virgin or known as absolutely irreproachable cannot get a marriage.

The aya means a philanderer or brothel visitor, should marry a woman like himself, and not seek a "good", sexually spotless woman. It is telling men that and telling women that marrying an unchaste man, no matter how much it may be socially approved, God does not approve. Many women ignore that provision.

That said, of course, anybody can sincerely repent and mend his or her ways.

Salaam

The Sardar

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Re: Those their right hands possess verses
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2019, 07:32:38 AM »
Sister my translation used "who are" instead of "or" for أَوۡ

In 70:30 مَا مَلَكَتۡ أَيۡمَـٰنُہُمۡ is explaining أَزۡوَٲجِهِمۡ
Salam/Peace dear brother. Good to see you. Now you stated that AW would mean "who is" in 24:3, i wonder if there is any Classical Arabic grammar or dictionary that can confirm this meaning?

I checked in Lughat Al-Quran and i found this:


imrankhawaja

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Re: Those their right hands possess verses
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2019, 07:58:11 PM »
my translation used "who are" instead of "or" for أَوۡ


peace novice,

its an interesting observation although what WORD arabic used for english word "OR"

or you are saying this "Coordinating Conjunction" used for both "or" and "who is" ..?

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Re: Those their right hands possess verses
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2019, 10:39:41 PM »
peace novice,

its an interesting observation although what WORD arabic used for english word "OR"

or you are saying this "Coordinating Conjunction" used for both "or" and "who is" ..?

Salaam Imran and The sadar

Yes brother it means both depending on the context. Dr. Shabbir has explained it in QXP at 24:3 and to me it makes sense. 

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Re: Those their right hands possess verses
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2019, 10:46:04 PM »
I do not think I agree with that, because then that could apply to any vice, like a slanderer, or a gambler or a lier and then there would not be any point in singling out the zaniyin as a specimen of mushrik and I think that forbidding marriage to a zany in the context of the ayas in sura an-noor has its proper meaning, in fact defeating a man can be a philanderer all is life and then when it comes to marriage wants a pure woman even virgin, but a woman who is not a virgin or known as absolutely irreproachable cannot get a marriage.

The aya means a philanderer or brothel visitor, should marry a woman like himself, and not seek a "good", sexually spotless woman. It is telling men that and telling women that marrying an unchaste man, no matter how much it may be socially approved, God does not approve. Many women ignore that provision.

That said, of course, anybody can sincerely repent and mend his or her ways.

Salaam

We can apply it to only that which is in the Quran.

If Aw is "or" then looks like it contradict 2:221.

Can a believer marry a mushrik?

Salaam

huruf

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Re: Those their right hands possess verses
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2019, 11:58:49 PM »
I can't see how it ontradicts it. It is two different things. If it were something like "who is" I would expect it to be much more common than just that mention which it does not convince me that for just that case or those two you mention has that meaning. And it only does the Qur'an say that if you yourself do give that mening to "or" only in precisely those passages.

On the other hand you would be saying that marrying  zani provided he or she is not a mushrik would be all right which would defeat the aleya itself because anyway you cannot marry a mushrik, therefore you can marry a zani. It turns the aleya into nonsense. You cannot marry mushriks if you are not one, and you cannot marry zanis if you are not one. But if you are a zani you can marry mushriks or zanis, included zanis who also are mushriks, but still you cannot marry a zani if you yourself are neither zani nor mushrik. 

If you say it is equating zina and shirk, yes it seems so but they are two different concepts. It may be that if you marry a zani and you yourself are not one, you are turning yourself into a mushrik since you value s worldly idea of marriage over what God makes it to be. 


Salaam