Author Topic: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?  (Read 4317 times)

Iyyaka

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2019, 11:28:29 PM »
It's plural, should read 4/3 'whole lunar cycles'
Salam brother,
Again sorry i respect your idea and i am probaby a simple guy but 4 months is equal to a duration.
If it Begins the 14th of january il will not start the 1st of February ! so it is as simple as that.

You said : "Is “Fast the whole month” = Fast 24hoursx30days? Do you take it in that way?" =>
I don't Believe that the verb "To fast" is the good translation for the verbal form of the word "SIYAM".
I just indicated in my first message that traditionnal view is problematic if you consider that "Ayyaman Ma'doodat" = 3-10 days.
So you have to resolve the problem and re-read my message but "Fast IT (=Full-moon)" is not grammatically correct (intransitive verb)

Layth

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2019, 12:05:30 AM »
Salam Iyyaka,

There is another option to your question that you may not have considered:

2:183-184 is an independent command from 2:185.

So the fast that has been decreed is the 10 days of "Ayaam Madoodat"; however, if anyone is able to "witness the month" then they are to fast an additional 30 days (10+30=40).

It seems to me that this understanding can be  linked to the story of Moses (30+10=40) where God breaks the time Moses spent purifying to speak to God into 2 distinct periods (30+10).

7:142   And We set a meeting for Moses in thirty nights, and We complemented them with ten, so the appointed time of his Lord was set at forty nights. And Moses said to his brother Aaron: "Be my successor with my people and be upright, and do not follow the path of the corrupters."
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

good logic

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2019, 03:42:32 AM »
Peace All.

I have no idea where people are coming up with 10 days or 30 days from?

It says "Ayamm Maadudat"  and there is "Al Shahr" in there. Lunar months vary .
So why can t "Ayam Maadudat" just mean whatever days there are in the month?

And who says "Ayam Maadudat" means days between 7 and 10? Why can t it mean between any counting numbers? Why not 29 or 30?...

What is absolutely certain is that Qoran does not say 10 days or 30 days !!!
God bless.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

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Mazhar

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2019, 05:14:52 AM »
Peace All.

I have no idea where people are coming up with 10 days or 30 days from?

It says "Ayamm Maadudat"  and there is "Al Shahr" in there. Lunar months vary .
So why can t "Ayam Maadudat" just mean whatever days there are in the month?

And who says "Ayam Maadudat" means days between 7 and 10? Why can t it mean between any counting numbers? Why not 29 or 30?...

What is absolutely certain is that Qoran does not say 10 days or 30 days !!!
God bless.
Peace.

By imaginative flights.

In all the calendars of the world days of individual months are counted ones. The days of months are passive, meaning counted and finalized.

Each month has: أَیَّامࣰا مَّعۡدُودَ ٰ⁠تࣲۚ days that are numbered/counted.

It is adjectival phrase. Second noun is Passive Participle (derived from Passive verb)

It is in Accusative case. Instead of going in imaginative fields we should first determine why is it in accusative case and what is its function in the discourse.

Layth

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2019, 07:37:50 AM »
Peace,

Quote
What is absolutely certain is that Qoran does not say 10 days or 30 days !!!

I think terms like: "absolutely certain" set the wrong tone for learning or discussing.

The Quran does use 10 and 30 as numbers and describers.
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

Mazhar

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2019, 07:58:09 AM »
Peace,

I think terms like: "absolutely certain" set the wrong tone for learning or discussing.

The Quran does use 10 and 30 as numbers and describers.


وَٱلَّذِينَ يُتَوَفَّوْنَ مِنكُـمْ وَيَذَرُونَ أَزْوَٟجٙا

This is about those men who are caused detachment - parting from amongst you people (because of natural-accidental death, incidental-planned murder, or slaughter in the cause/war of Allah the Exalted) in circumstances that they are leaving behind their wives ?

يَتَـرَبَّصْنَ بِأَنفُسِهِنَّ أَرْبَعَةَ أَشْهُرٛ وَعَشْـرٙاۖ

They (respective wives left behind) should wait-restrain their selves, honestly and sincerely, for a period of four lunar months and ten days (till the night start of eleventh lunar day).

فَإِذَا بَلَغْنَ أَجَلَـهُنَّ فَلَا جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُـمْ فِيمَا فَعَلْنَ فِـىٓ أَنفُسِهِنَّ بِٱلْمَعْـرُوفِۗ

Thereat, when they (wives left behind) have elapsed-crossed over the last moment of their prescribed duration, thereby there is no objection upon you people regards what these women decide-act about their selves in accordance with the known norms of the society.

وَٱللَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ خَبِيـرٚ .2:234٢٣٤

Remain mindful that Allah the Exalted is aware of all acts which you people keep doing. [2:234]


يَتَخَٟفَتُونَ بَيْنَـهُـمْ إِن لَّبِثْتُـمْ إِلَّا عَشْـرٙا .20:103١٠٣

They will be murmuring amongst themselves, "Not you remained in dead state except for ten days". [20:103]

نَّحْنُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا يَقُولُونَ إِذْ يَقُولُ أَمْثَلُـهُـمْ طَرِيقَةٙ إِن لَّبِثْتُـمْ إِلَّا يَوْمٙا .20:104١٠٤

Our Majesty know fully what they say murmuring, when says the trailblazer of them, "you remained in dead state but for a day." [20:104]

good logic

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2019, 09:55:32 AM »
Peace Layth.
I meant Qoran does not say fast 10 days or 30 days. These are assumptions..
Of course Qoran has the numbers 10 and 30 in different other verses.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

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Iyyaka

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2019, 11:08:43 AM »
Peace All.
I have no idea where people are coming up with 10 days or 30 days from?
It says "Ayamm Maadudat"  and there is "Al Shahr" in there. Lunar months vary .
So why can t "Ayam Maadudat" just mean whatever days there are in the month?
And who says "Ayam Maadudat" means days between 7 and 10? Why can t it mean between any counting numbers? Why not 29 or 30?...
What is absolutely certain is that Qoran does not say 10 days or 30 days !!!
God bless.
Peace.
Salam,

It is classical Arabic grammatical rules ! Quran is came down in arabic..we are agree about this fact.

But before arguing, i would like to readjust some truths concerning my speechs : If you look at my previous post you will realize that i never say that shahr = 30 days (i said "Shahr" means a lunar-month) or "ayyāman maʿdūdātin" is between 7 and 10 but between 3 and 10.

Second we have to study specific rules from a language.
   - Example : you will be agree that "ayyāman" means at least 3 right ? But translators say "days". Or a person who doesn't knows arabic but only english could belive that it begins at 2 days and not 3 ! the number 3 is INCLUDED into the expression "ayyāman". It is an arabic  grammatical rule different from English grammar.
    - Another example. When you say to your friend : "I am going on holidays ONE week". Your friend understand that you mean 7 days and not 30 days right? It is a part of his culture, English culture.

So for arabic people who listen for the first time al-quran when Muhammad tell them ""ayyāman maʿdūdātin" they understood this expression as a very small number, more than 3 and that they count with their fingers (10) and never a big number like 29 or 30.
it still depends on the litteral context as the quran demonstrate us ! (3 or 7 or 10). And this is our best evidence.

-------------------------------------
Now, as a non expert in classic arabic grammar rules, i made my research. As i said, Nouman ali KHAN (well-know traditionnal shcolars) knows this rule.
And I give you also what an expert said about the richness of Classical Arabic to express plural :
"
you have to know that Arabic, unlike French or English, expresses the plural in a very special and rich way, in addition to the plural Dual, which does not exist in French/English, there is a plural "Killa" (little) and a plural "kathra" (a lot).
When you take a word, and its plural is broken (adding other letters) it is called a broken plural (jam3 tekssir) and this plural can give an indication of the number:

-1) It is a plural "Killa" (between 3 and 10) and suddenly it is built on three schemes: (1) Af3ila (2) Af3ul (3) Af3al (4) Fi3la

-2) or It is a plural "kathra" and it has about thirty schemes (F3oul, Af3ilae etc...)

I give you an example: The word CHAHR which means MONTH

To put it in the plural "Killa" we will say: ACHHUR (on the Af3ul sceme)
whereas in the plural "Kathra" it gives:  CHHOUR(on the F3oul scheme)

the 2 plurals obtained, are translated into English by MONTH (plural) without any indication.
While an arab-speaking world knows that "Achhur" does not exceed 10 (between 3 and 10)
while CHHOUR can go from 3 to infinity.

you have an illustration of that in the Qur'an:
(9:2) "Travel the land for four months; and know that you will not reduce Allah to impotence and may Allah cover the disbelievers with disgrace."
=> Here because the number of months is 4, the Koran uses the plural killa, ie ACHHUR.
see also the same use for the 4 sacred months, or the months of the Hajj...

As soon as their number exceeds 10, the plural changes and becomes a plural Kathra:
(9:36): "The number of months, with Allah, is twelve [months], in the prescription of Allah,"
=> Here the plural used is CHHOUR, because the number exceeds 10.

While in English, translation does not change.

To be honest not all the shcolars Believe in these rule (number 10 as a max) for "ayyāman maʿdūdātin". But the consensus is about a little number and 29-30 days is too big.
"
-------------------------------------
Salam Iyyaka,
There is another option to your question that you may not have considered:
2:183-184 is an independent command from 2:185.
So the fast that has been decreed is the 10 days of "Ayaam Madoodat"; however, if anyone is able to "witness the month" then they are to fast an additional 30 days (10+30=40).
It seems to me that this understanding can be  linked to the story of Moses (30+10=40) where God breaks the time Moses spent purifying to speak to God into 2 distinct periods (30+10).
7:142   And We set a meeting for Moses in thirty nights, and We complemented them with ten, so the appointed time of his Lord was set at forty nights. And Moses said to his brother Aaron: "Be my successor with my people and be upright, and do not follow the path of the corrupters."
Salam Layth,

Thank you for your remark (in green in your post).
You're right there is another option (fifth - see my first post for others options). It looks like option 1 and 2 (separate in time but the second erase the first one) but this time you merge the 2 recommendations.
But for me, as i said to Wakas, 2:183-187 is a whole passage with 2 parts : (2:183-184) and (2:185-187). So these 2 parts are linked. You will remark that the word ""Redemption / fidya" in (2:184) doesn't appaears in the second part (2:185-187) because the second part details the first part for people who really desires to make a "SIYAM". The first part is a general recommendation and the second part describes the SIYAM for the people of the Quran.

But you make an EXCELLENT REMARK quoting the ayat (7:142) where God separates 30 to 10 to combine them to give the number 40. We are on the right track to find a solution..God does not do that by accident..

However, i don't believe in SIYAM = fasting. And in english the expression "Fast IT" (as we can find on the website Quranix.com) is grammatically incorrect (intransitive verb - no C.O.D possible). Hope they will change their translation.

Peace

good logic

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2019, 11:35:36 AM »
Peace Iyyaka.
Why do you say this:

but between 3 and 10.   for Ayaam Maadudat? Who defined it as that? On what evidence?
Why not between 3 and 30? or other...?
GOD bless you.
Peace
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Mazhar

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2019, 11:53:26 AM »
Peace Iyyaka.
Why do you say this:

but between 3 and 10.   for Ayaam Maadudat? Who defined it as that? On what evidence?
Why not between 3 and 30? or other...?
GOD bless you.
Peace

He is considering it noun of paucity whereas Maadudat has nothing to do with paucity.