Author Topic: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?  (Read 4323 times)

Iyyaka

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2019, 03:54:25 AM »
For me , until clear evidence is shown, my current understanding is "Sawm is for one month", i.e how many days depends on the total days of the month...29/30,...

If you read carefully the thread,, you will find a lot of personal opinions and assumptions. No evidence from Qoran.
So my personal understanding ,the one I am responsible for, remains.
Of course you are also entitled to yours.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Salam Good logic,

Not agree of course.
If you read carefully the thread you will find a lot of evidences from Qoran (grammatical, dictionnary, rhetorical analysis, "Tarteel "..). But your opinion is already done.

You said "Sawm is for one month". Again, in 2:185 it is not about Sawm but Siyam...(This one is For Mohammed too).

Peace

Mazhar

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2019, 07:11:53 AM »
Thank you, it confirms my view, but it changes not really what God says here !
Even "exhausting the month by fasting." is very confusing...So much cunning to try to twist the meaning of this sentence.

Sorry, but are you blind about the use of SIYAM here (re-read also above my post about "Example of Jussive mood in arabic" - so clear..) :

(2:185:17) falyaṣum'hu - فَمَنْ شَهِدَ مِنْكُمُ الشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُمْهُ
        RSLT ? prefixed result particle
        IMPV ? prefixed imperative particle lām
        V ? 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb, jussive mood
        PRON ? 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun

Fasting is not APPROPRIATE. Its is INCORRECT. God gives you signs to be sure to not to be wrong.
By using the PRON God indicates you that fasting is not the good meaning.

Moreover, the form of this verb is the FORM I :

   Form 1 - فعل (fa3ala)
   Expresses the general verbal meaning of the root in question

So the root سوم SWM (Fasting/abstaining) is not exactly the same then سيم SYM (using here in 2:185).

NB : it is my last message on this thread about the root SIYAM coz i deviate from the main subject, even if all is linked (probably an another thread will be open to evaluate it - God willing)

Irrelevant post, repetition of details is ones sickness.

Passing the month, you pass the time, you exhaust a duration, you cross over the time. Month is a duration, Time Adverb,

Now I have yet to tell you to see what are the rules for spelling those verbs who have middle consonant of Root as Waw. Get some book on Morphology and study it before considering others blind.

Iyyaka

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2019, 09:58:23 AM »
Quote from: Mazhar
Irrelevant post, repetition of details is ones sickness.

Passing the month, you pass the time, you exhaust a duration, you cross over the time. Month is a duration, Time Adverb,

Now I have yet to tell you to see what are the rules for spelling those verbs who have middle consonant of Root as Waw. Get some book on Morphology and study it before considering others blind.
I apologize if I offended you ("Blind" was in a sense of "intellectual blind" on THIS particular subject of quranic expression - otherwise i have a lot of respect for your work).

And thank you for your advice but before i am going to look at grammatical basic rules books to try to understand why i am wrong (sorry i repeat again but you know why now) by reminding :

- Translate the verbal form of the word SIYAM in English, in 2:185, by the verb "To FAST" is incorrect because it is an INTRANSITIVE verb. Except if you modify the literal meaning. Every person decides what he or she does.

- The arabic use of the "PRON – 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun"

Mazhar

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2019, 11:14:59 AM »
I apologize if I offended you ("Blind" was in a sense of "intellectual blind" on THIS particular subject of quranic expression - otherwise i have a lot of respect for your work).

And thank you for your advice but before i am going to look at grammatical basic rules books to try to understand why i am wrong (sorry i repeat again but you know why now) by reminding :

- Translate the verbal form of the word SIYAM in English, in 2:185, by the verb "To FAST" is incorrect because it is an INTRANSITIVE verb. Except if you modify the literal meaning. Every person decides what he or she does.

- The arabic use of the "PRON ? 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun"

Why I proposed to study morphology? Reread your own this post you may get the point.





What type of noun they are?

They are VERBAL Noun. And then study what is denoted by a verbal noun. May be it helps you to erase what has got internalized for lack of complete information.

A verbal noun denotes action or state without time reference relating to concept inherent in the Root. Third person singular masculine perfect verb is made from Verbal Noun.

Iyyaka

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #64 on: May 28, 2019, 01:22:54 PM »
Let me suggest these studies also :

- Biliteral root of the letters SAD and MIIM

- The general definition of the letter WAW and ALIF

- Quran gives us the good definition of the noun SWAM (easy) and SIYAM (easy too!).
It is so obvious that i couldn't believe the first time. The marvel is before our eyes !
The problem is that we look at the quran through a veil of traditionnal knowledge that can deviate from the original meaning.
We impose our ideas pre-conceived on the text without even realizing it..and i realized i was the first to work like this..

Mazhar

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #65 on: May 28, 2019, 01:31:44 PM »
Let me suggest these studies also :

- Biliteral root of the letters SAD and MIIM

- The general definition of the letter WAW and ALIF

- Quran gives us the good definition of the noun SWAM (easy) and SIYAM (easy too!).
It is so obvious that i couldn't believe the first time. The marvel is before our eyes !
The problem is that we look at the quran through a veil of traditionnal knowledge that can deviate from the original meaning.
We impose our ideas pre-conceived on the text without even realizing it..and i realized i was the first to work like this..

Quote some source you obtained these Roots.

Iyyaka

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #66 on: May 30, 2019, 03:45:43 AM »
Quote some source you obtained these Roots.

1)
Small basic bibliography (but in french sorry) :

Belot, Jean-Baptiste (1955), Dictionnaire arabe-français « El-faraïd », Beyrouth, Imprimerie catholique.
Bohas, Georges (1997), Matrices, Étymons, Racines, Leuven-Paris, Peeters.
Bohas G., Bachmar K. (2014), Les étymons en arabe. Analyse formelle et sémantique. Recherches, n°23, Beyrouth, Dar El-Machreq.
Kazimirski, A. de Biberstein (1860), Dictionnaire arabe-français, Paris, Maisonneuve et Cie.
Khatef, Laïla, Statut de la troisième radicale en arabe : le croisement des étymons, thèse de doctorat soutenue à l’Université Paris 8 en 2003.

2) Al quran of course ! and first..I think you know http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm. So you can compare triliteral roots arabic where these 2 roots are associated.

3) History of alphabet arabic and starting with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet

Mazhar

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #67 on: May 30, 2019, 08:36:41 AM »
1)
Small basic bibliography (but in french sorry) :

Belot, Jean-Baptiste (1955), Dictionnaire arabe-français « El-faraïd », Beyrouth, Imprimerie catholique.
Bohas, Georges (1997), Matrices, Étymons, Racines, Leuven-Paris, Peeters.
Bohas G., Bachmar K. (2014), Les étymons en arabe. Analyse formelle et sémantique. Recherches, n°23, Beyrouth, Dar El-Machreq.
Kazimirski, A. de Biberstein (1860), Dictionnaire arabe-français, Paris, Maisonneuve et Cie.
Khatef, Laïla, Statut de la troisième radicale en arabe : le croisement des étymons, thèse de doctorat soutenue à l’Université Paris 8 en 2003.

2) Al quran of course ! and first..I think you know http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm. So you can compare triliteral roots arabic where these 2 roots are associated.

3) History of alphabet arabic and starting with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet

Nothing relevant to the question. Where is a Root with only Two consonants?

Iyyaka

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2019, 11:36:00 AM »
Salam,

Here is a small interesting Quranic study to complete my study about the meaning of the word ma'dūdātin as a "weak plural form" (between 3 and 10) in (2:184).

Let's compare two verses (From "The Monotheist Group (The Quran: A Monotheist Translation)):
- (12:43) 12:43 And the king said: "I'm still going to be dreaming of being fat with seven thin ones, and seven (multiple) green pods and some others who are dry. vision means if you are able to interpret the visions. "
- (2:261) The example of those who spend their money in the cause of God is like a seed that sprouts seven (multiple) pods, in each pod there is one hundred seeds; and God multiplies for whoever He chooses, and God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.

What interests us here is the comparison between identical expressions in the English translation but with a slight subtle difference in Arabic:
- (12:43) "wasab'a / multiple sunbulātin / ears (of corn)
- (2:261) "sab'a / multiple sanābila / ears (of corn)

Why this difference wanted by God? Because it is context dependent:
- (12:43) Context of dearth period = A weak Plural form which expresses this dearth period (a few..)
- (2:261) Context of abundance = A strong Plural form which expresses this generosity (a lot ..)

Now, the ending of the word sunbulātin in (12:43) corresponds to the ending of the word ma'dūdātin in 2:184.

We can admire the precision of the Quranic language that does not always glimpse its translation into other languages ​​such as English or French.

Peace.

ade_cool

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #69 on: September 08, 2019, 07:52:54 AM »
You know Brother classical dictionnary are useful but keep in mind that you can find almost all what you want to justify your OWN interpretation of texts (quran here - Cf. below).
This research must be confirmed by EVIDENCES (quran himself first, real history..).

So let me show you again ?vidences by searching the expression "Ayyaman/Ayyamin ma'doodat.." (in four occurrences inclued 2:184) :

 - (2:203) (2:80 is similar) And remember God during a few limited number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no one who is being righteous. And be aware of God, and know that it is to be gathered.
=> 3 days (Hajj)


Salam Iyyaka,

Sorry my question is a bit out of topic.

In 2:203, whoever hurries relative to ayyaman ma'dudat then it is ok, whoever delays relative to ayyaman ma'dudat then it is also ok

Hurrying that is ok is 2 days as stated in the verse (1 day less than ayyaman ma'dudat is ok but cannot be lesser).

What about delaying? logically speaking, 11 days is ok (1 day more than ayyaman ma'dudat). But what about more than 1 day delay? How many more days in delay are still ok?


Wassalam,
Ade