Author Topic: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?  (Read 5129 times)

Iyyaka

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Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« on: May 19, 2019, 11:01:58 AM »
Hello everyone,

In this period of the traditional month of "Ramadan" let me address a topic that caused a problem for Koranic interpreters in the past and now.

Indeed, in 2:184 the word "ma'dūdat" with the Alif and the Ta at the end suggests what is called in Arabic "djama`u qila" ie a Low number between 3 and 10 days.

       Others evidence?

       1) Classical Arabic Dictionary (Kazimirski and Lane's lexicon)

       2) The verses of the Qur'an that use this specific form (Except 2:184) confirm this Arabic usage:

           - (2:203: 5) And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no one who is being righteous. And be aware of God, and know that it is to be gathered.
           => 3 days (Hajj)

           - (3: 24: 9) That is because they said: "The Fire will not touch us except for a few days," and they were arrogant by what they invented in their system.
           => 7 days as the number of days in one Week (see Tafsir from "ibn kathir" = in English too)

BUT the problem is that the Quran seems to tell us in 2:185 to "fast" 1 whole lunar month is about 29-30 days! We are far from the few days that we can count on the hand!

How to solve this problem ? Here are the interpretations I found (in my point of view they are not really acceptable) :

1) Abrogation by the Hadtihs:

Muslim: https://www.islamicfinder.org/hadith/muslim/fasting/2687/

Bukhari: https://hamariweb.com/islam/hadith/sahih-bukhari-4507/


2) They made a distinction between the revelation period of verses 2:183-184 (the most recent) and that of 2:185 (the latest).
So at the beginning the "Muslims" were playing like the Jews for three days until they broke up with them as a separate community that imposed 30 days (Ramadan month) by the Koran. We are not far from abrogation.

3) The word "ma'dūdat" does not mean a very limited number of days (<= 10 days) but simply "counted", "numbered", "enumerated" .. in contradiction with the linguistic arguments that I mentioned above.

4) The word "shahru" in 2:185 does not mean 1 whole lunar month but refers to the first crescent moon after the new moon or full moon.
But the Koran says "shahru" = lunar month (because visible to the naked eye).
And the other Quranic verses use this meaning in a "whole month" way.
Furthermore, and as I pointed out in another recently post here, the word "To Fast" in English as in French is an intransitive verb (no object) that can not apply to 1 month or 1 crescent moon; which contradicts the expression "(2:185: 17) - falyaṣum'hu (hu = PRON - 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun)


So to your reflections to solve this apparent contradiction! (if we believe that the Koran contains no contradiction of course ..)

And sorry if an acceptable solution has already be found in this big forum.

Peace

Mazhar

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2019, 12:44:59 PM »


Passive Participle: indefinite; sound plural; feminine; genitive/ accusative.

Wakas

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2019, 03:26:42 AM »
Is it intransitive in Arabic though?
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Swm#(2:185:17)


You may also find this interesting:
http://islam-and-muslims.com/timing.html
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

The Sardar

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2019, 10:24:07 AM »
I think we need to check the root word of Shahru:

Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous (in a bad or good sense), hire/contract for a month, stay a month, month old, month, new moon, moon, full moon, any evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, a vice/fault or the like, big & bulky, reputable/eminent.

shahr n.m. (pl. shuhur and ashur) 2:185, 2:185, 2:194, 2:194, 2:197, 2:217, 2:226, 2:234, 4:92, 5:2, 5:97, 9:2, 9:5, 9:36, 9:36, 34:12, 34:12, 46:15, 58:4, 65:4, 97:3

LL, V4, p: 336, 337  ##http://ejtaal.net/aa/#q=shhr

Plus in 2:185:

2:185 شهر رمضان الذى انزل فيه القرءان هدى للناس وبينات من الهدىا والفرقان فمن شهد منكم الشهر فليصمه ومن كان مريضا او علىا سفر فعدة من ايام اخر يريد الله بكم اليسر ولا يريد بكم العسر ولتكملوا العدة ولتكبروا الله علىا ما هدىاكم ولعلكم تشكرون
Shahru ramadana allatheeonzila feehi alqur-anu hudan lilnnasiwabayyinatin mina alhuda waalfurqanifaman shahida minkumu alshshahra falyasumhu waman kanamareedan aw AAala safarin faAAiddatun min ayyaminokhara yureedu Allahu bikumu alyusra wala yureedubikumu alAAusra walitukmiloo alAAiddata walitukabbiroo AllahaAAala ma hadakum walaAAallakum tashkuroona
The month of Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was revealed; as a guide to the people and clarities from the guidance and the Criterion. Whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast it. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.

It says whoever WITNESSES/SHAHIDA the Shahra. My question is, how do you witness a Month? You can however, witness a Full Moon like this one:





You can check out videos by a sister known as Simply Muslim who touched on Ramadan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXvBSB7o_-Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvuVsqqP_lw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPjv5w4eVBg

The Sardar

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2019, 10:46:11 AM »
Plus i noticed that wa or thumma is not mentioned in 2:185. Now i can be wrong but this could indicate that 2:184 & 2:185 may not be related (Again, i could be incorrect).

*EDIT* I have found something that may change my mind on this reply i made:

From: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOG1XeZ0xzI&lc=UgzCbhiaRTElgYeMYqx4AaABAg.8h5WVczSHNL8h7KkbOvG9Y


*This comment is 11 months old*

Quote
Peace be upon you dear brother John,


It is always wonderful reading from you dear brother.




<<<1.  If it takes an expert in classical Arabic years to figure this out, what hope for everyone else, especially when it claims that it is a clear book that everyone can understand?>>>


To be clear, I do not consider myself an 'expert' in the language. I understand it, I am fluent in it, but I am in no way some grammarian or been to language school or such :)


I understand how this can be frustrating particularly for those relying on translations. However, we need to keep in mind that the true Quranic message has been buried under centuries of traditions, customs, biases, and misinterpretations, and it is only now that some scholars of the Arabic world are starting to truly grasp the Quranic message at its pristine condition. And lots of traditionalists are fighting back to preserve these traditions! So it will take time for the Qurans true message to prevail, but I personally see it happening everyday in the Arab world.








<<<For instance, it could have indicated explicitly that the moon appears bigger or appears red/orange, or that it is not when the month starts but when the moon is full. And furthermore, the fast is ONLY for those very specific days DURING the month of Ramadan. Yet it doesn't. >>>>


My contention is based on the fact that God speaks of AYMAN MADOODAT (countable days) in 2:184 and then He speaks of 'the month' in 2:185. Both of these terms are connected by 'the counts' or AL-'IDDAH which are both mentioned in 2:184 and 185. So it seemed to me the 'countable number' of days is within the 'month' that we are supposed to abstain.




The Quran is very clear that month is reliant on the moon phases. I do contend that SHAHR RAMADAN is called such specifically because of the occurrence of the harvest moon - which is a distinct characteristic of the moon unique to the entire year. It also connects why God speaks of AYAMAN MADOODAT (countable days) in 2:184 which is how long the harvest moon lasts during this month.






<<< 2 I had always thought that 2:184 is directly linked to 2:185, but it doesn't seem that way. I now read the verses as meaning two separate fasts are required. One, the whole lunisolar month of Ramadan. Two, other days as well ("days numbered" or "limited days" are the translations I've seen), which are left to the believer to decide, a very personalised attitude that runs throughout the Quran (just as how much money to give to charity is left to the individual, so the amount of extra days fasting is left to the individual). The Quran doesn't want people fasting every day or for most of the year, so it simply says: "limited days", that is you choose how many and when.>>>>





At one point I thought the same. I felt it may be referring to two different 'fasts' and I would not dismiss this idea as valid. But to be fair, it is NOT very clear that it is two different fasts either.


However, if we pay attention to the entire passage we will see they are all connected and referring to the same SIYAM:


One method I used is to actually remove the verse-stops and connect 2:184 to 185 and 186. We will see the verses actually flow into one another as ONE complete thought:


"O you who believe, ordained upon you is the SIYAM (withholding)... that you may become guarded a countable number of days. So whoever of you is ill or traveling then a number of other days... and to SIYAM is best for you if you only knew month of Ramadan... So whoever witnesses the month he shall withhold/abstain it... God wishes ease for you and... to complete the numbers..."


So by removing the verse-stops we see these three verses flow nicely into one another.






<<<<3. The "extremes" you reference could just as easily mean the ends of the moon cycle. What is more extreme than the sudden appearance of a new moon, signifying the start of a new month? All other months are determined in this fashion, and so why shouldn't the month of Ramadan? The month "Ramadan" existed in pre-Islamic Arabia. The Quran is referring to something that the initial direct recipients of the Quran understood: this particular month that you call Ramadan, and in which the Quran was revealed, is the one you fast.  >>>>


I do contend that Ramadan may refer to the 'extreme' display of the moon as red and large.


To my understanding, the month starts and ends with a crescent as noted by the verses I cited in the video. The full-moon takes place in the nearing parts of the middle of the month.


But when God says 'countable number of days' and 'whoever witnesses the month abstain it' the connection becomes in reference to a specific number of days. The only significance to Ramadan is the event of the Harvest moon.








<<<<4. Lastly, and probably more controversially, why should sighting the Harvest moon be a requirement to knowing when to fast? What if it's overcast and nobody sees it where you're living? You would have missed the start of the fast for no reason whatever. >>>>




Well this is the same argument made by traditionlists who insist the need to see a crescent moon with the naked eye. The fact is the harvest moon is simply the nearest full-moon to the equinox - plus at least one day before and one day after. This can be easily calculated without problems.






<<<<Not that it's necessarily relevant but fasting for a whole month is something that was demanded of previous receivers of scripture (see various verses of the Bible) and the surrounding monotheists would have understood, especially a lunisolar month. >>>>


I have not read the bible, but I have inquired with several people and asked them about any ordinance to fast in the bible. I've been told, and please correct me if I am wrong, there is not a verse that commands the people to fast. The ONLY verse that actually commands fasting is ONE day on YAWM KAPUR. I would be interested to see any verse which tells the believers to fast.






<<<Fasting during an indistinct and easily missed few days when the moon changes doesn't fit the Quran and would seem pagan to the monotheists in the Arabia of the Prophet. >>>


As noted in the video, the entire passage of 2:183-188 isn't speaking of 'fasting' from food or drink or sex. This is a huge culture mix that, unfortunately, crept into Islam.  The SIYAM spoken of in this passage is to be observed on the Harvest moon days/nights. This will be clarified in the next video God willing.




Peace and God Bless you brother.

Iyyaka

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2019, 11:33:04 AM »
Salam Wakas,

Is it intransitive in Arabic though?
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Swm#(2:185:17)
No it is transitive.

Quote
You may also find this interesting:
http://islam-and-muslims.com/timing.html
Thank you for the link.
I know this article.
I have great respect for his research work and his willingness to discover the historical reality behind the layers of sedimentation of generations following the revelation and death of the prophet.
I am agree with somes aspects But I do not agree with him on some crucial points.

Major disagreements:

1) He said : "A common misconception is that the word" shahr "means month. However, the term "shahr" does not mean month "
=> NO the word "shahr" means full month but the full lunar month because it is identifiable (visible) with the view by looking at the lunar phases.
=> In addition all other occurrences of this word in the quran point to 1 whole month or several months.

2) He said : "2:185. The full moon of scorching heat is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it” "
=> Incomprehensible translation into English. He does not use the verb "To fast" which is instransitive. It's a good point. The word "To abstain" certainly is more appropriate in relation with the deep meaning of the root word but how to abstain from a full moon?
In English this sentence does not make sense.
Unless the pronoun "it" points to a word other than the word "full moon" but it is not the intention of the author

3) He said : "Ramadan can be translated as the moment of diffussion of "intense heat".
=> He identifies this month around the summer solstice. But it is too early in the season to reflect the significance of the month of Ramadan). Based on the roots and research of historians, the first 5 months of the year are:The Arabic name of the months, especially that of the two rabia (rabia al awal and rabia ath-thani) was to correspond to spring, before the two dry months of joumada (joumada al oula and joumada ath-thania) and the "burning" month" of Ramadan so perhaps in august (like the month of av for the jews) or in september (if we follow the actual order by name, 9th month from january to december).

4) He said : "9:36. The count of the full-moons with The God is twelve full-moons in The God's book the day He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct obligation; so do not wrong yourselves in them; The God is with the forethoughtful.
 My translation:
"True/Indeed, the counting (enumerate) of months for God is twelve lunar months by a decree of God the day He created the heavens and the earth. Among them, four are sacred, this is the right custom / ad-din al-qayyim. During [these months] do not be unfair to yourself [by transgressing them]. But, fight the polytheists in all these times, just as they fight you there; and know that God is with those who fear him. ", S9.V36.
=> The purpose of this verse is pragmatic: God gives you the opportunity to fight those who transgress the truce by fighting you in these sacred months, even though you yourself refused to do so out of respect for this sacredness. Apart from rationalist arguments, this information confirms that the term sacrality is contractual and that it is obviously not a divine prescription but a tradition instituted by the Arabs themselves, the historical fact is well During these four months, the Bedouins could move to trade without fear of an attack or to go to safety on various pilgrimages.

Peace

Iyyaka

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2019, 11:43:14 AM »
Shahru ramadana allatheeonzila feehi alqur-anu hudan lilnnasiwabayyinatin mina alhuda waalfurqanifaman shahida minkumu alshshahra falyasumhu waman kanamareedan aw AAala safarin faAAiddatun min ayyaminokhara yureedu Allahu bikumu alyusra wala yureedubikumu alAAusra walitukmiloo alAAiddata walitukabbiroo AllahaAAala ma hadakum walaAAallakum tashkuroona
The month of Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was revealed; as a guide to the people and clarities from the guidance and the Criterion. Whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast it. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.

It says whoever WITNESSES/SHAHIDA the Shahra. My question is, how do you witness a Month? You can however, witness a Full Moon like this one:


Salam Sardar,

First point in red : Sorry I repeat again but the verb "To fast" is INTRANSITIVE so you canno't say in English "fast IT". How do you fast a full-moon ?

Second point in red : you are right. We canno't witness (with eyes) a full month. But you can attest the Truth of Something happen in this month right ? Look at the specific scheme "SHAHIDA" in the quran and you will discover that it is Matching better with the definition of "to attest the Truth of Something" in many cases.
I want to add that in real life you testify/witness Something that it was happened in the PAST...

NB : Thank you for the video links

Peace

The Sardar

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2019, 11:58:42 AM »
Salam Safar,

First point in red : Sorry I repeat again but the verb "To fast" is INTRANSITIVE so you canno't say in English "fast IT". How do you fast a full-moon ?

I am a little confused, didn't you said to Wakas, "No it is transitive" ?

Iyyaka

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2019, 12:04:40 PM »
I am a little confused, didn't you said to Wakas, "No it is transitive" ?
In Arabic, the verb falyaṣum'hu in 2:185 (from SIYAM) doesn't mean "To fast".
This arabic verb is transitive while "to fast" in english is intransitive.
So to translate by "Fast IT" is grammatically incorrect..
Hope it is more clear.

Mazhar

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2019, 01:19:43 PM »
In Arabic, the verb falyaṣum'hu in 2:185 (from SIYAM) doesn't mean "To fast".
This arabic verb is transitive while "to fast" in english is intransitive.
So to translate by "Fast IT" is grammatically incorrect..
Hope it is more clear.

What is the pattern (Baab) of this verb?