Author Topic: rhetoric analysis : Does Isa is among the wicked ? (5:45-46)  (Read 1856 times)

Iyyaka

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rhetoric analysis : Does Isa is among the wicked ? (5:45-46)
« on: April 21, 2019, 12:58:40 PM »
Salam,

Someone made me a remark about the fact that I did not always respect basic grammatical rules (especially in the 22:40 analysis).
Of course, these rules are important, but it is even more important to respect the structuring and organization of the text, otherwise we risk of making a bad understanding of the Koranic discourse.

We have in 5: 45-46 an exemplary example! If we follow the linearity of the text then we are forced to understand that Jesus is part of the iniquitous..Following the modern logic of reading texts !

The Monotheist Group (The Quran: A Monotheist Translation)
5:45 And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar; and whoever remits anything of it, then it will cancel sins for him. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.
5:46 And We sent in their footsteps Jesus, son of Mary, authenticating what was present with him of the Torah. And We gave him the Gospel, in it is a guidance and a light, and authenticating what was present with him of the Torah, and a guidance and a lesson for the righteous.

Now the whole of the passage, which these 2 ayats appears, is composed globally in the following way:

A (5:44)
   X (5:45)
A '(5: 46-47)

The rhetorical analysis of passage 44-46, however, shows that "their footsteps" (46) is in symmetrical position with the "prophets" at the beginning of the two extreme parts of the passage.
In Semitic rhetoric, attention must always be drawn to symmetries, even if they are far removed from the text, more (or at least as much) than the linear continuity of it.

Peace

Mahdi Ibrahim

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Re: rhetoric analysis : Does Isa is among the wicked ? (5:45-46)
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2019, 01:33:12 PM »
a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" Gandhi.

Allah never makes such law and it is metaphorical... for justly balance judgment and only correct the mistakes in issue; "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!".  therefore "the structuring and organization of the text" are not always helpful in "signs and metaphorical (ancient language)", and will lead you to the issue of "Does Isa is among the wicked?"...  :laugh:


e.g. You who have iman! retaliation is prescribed for you in the case of people killed: free man for free man, slave for slave, female for female. But if someone is absolved by his brother, blood-money should be claimed with correctness and paid with good will. That is an easement and a mercy from your Lord. Anyone who goes beyond the limits after this will receive a painful punishment. There is life for you in retaliation, people of intelligence, so that hopefully you will have taqwa. (2:178-179)
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Iyyaka

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Re: rhetoric analysis : Does Isa is among the wicked ? (5:45-46)
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2019, 02:16:22 PM »
"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" Gandhi.

Allah never makes such law and it is metaphorical... for justly balance judgment and only correct the mistakes in issue; "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!".  therefore "the structuring and organization of the text" are not always helpful in "signs and metaphorical (ancient language)", and will lead you to the issue of "Does Isa is among the wicked?"...  :laugh:
Sorry off topic (Talion's law is not the subject here).

I already detailed here my methodology to understand the quran.
As you underlined, Rhetoric analysis is of course just one part of it BUT it so much important and rarely taken into account for a better understanding of the quran (from my limited point of view and knowledge). That's why i insist in this forum with it.

Symbolism is important in the quran but it could be discussed in another topic.(How to explain what you can't see ? How to explain the taste of chocolate to someone who has never tasted this one ?)

I just invite you to be careful with an "OVER-interpretation" of a text (Keep this danger always in mind) :
 - Drawing lessons from a text for a modern reading and making a text alive is one thing and a good thing BUT understanding this text in context is another textual activity

Mahdi Ibrahim

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Re: rhetoric analysis : Does Isa is among the wicked ? (5:45-46)
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2019, 02:29:24 PM »
I don't care what is your interpretation methodology, but how can you believe in "...a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar..."? and accordingly "Does Isa is among the wicked?" Try using your I.Q. a little bit rather than getting stuck with your Book ... the circular reasoning. What is your theory of justice in this?


Premise 1: "a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar" (actual premise? literal or metaphorical?)

Premise 2: ? ? ?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion: Isa is among the wicked
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I already prove how "the structuring and organization of the text" or grammar alone etc are incompatible with the Quran ... now it's you to justify it.
Matheism is the conditions of natural harmony for all situations | What defines you?

Mazhar

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Re: rhetoric analysis : Does Isa is among the wicked ? (5:45-46)
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2019, 02:33:29 PM »
Salam,

Someone made me a remark about the fact that I did not always respect basic grammatical rules (especially in the 22:40 analysis).
Of course, these rules are important, but it is even more important to respect the structuring and organization of the text, otherwise we risk of making a bad understanding of the Koranic discourse.

We have in 5: 45-46 an exemplary example! If we follow the linearity of the text then we are forced to understand that Jesus is part of the iniquitous..Following the modern logic of reading texts !

The Monotheist Group (The Quran: A Monotheist Translation)
5:45 And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar; and whoever remits anything of it, then it will cancel sins for him. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.
5:46 And We sent in their footsteps Jesus, son of Mary, authenticating what was present with him of the Torah. And We gave him the Gospel, in it is a guidance and a light, and authenticating what was present with him of the Torah, and a guidance and a lesson for the righteous.

Now the whole of the passage, which these 2 ayats appears, is composed globally in the following way:

A (5:44)
   X (5:45)
A '(5: 46-47)

The rhetorical analysis of passage 44-46, however, shows that "their footsteps" (46) is in symmetrical position with the "prophets" at the beginning of the two extreme parts of the passage.
In Semitic rhetoric, attention must always be drawn to symmetries, even if they are far removed from the text, more (or at least as much) than the linear continuity of it.

Peace

Structuring is what is grammar - syntax.

Follow that then you would not have related red parts of two sentences. Rhetoric without knowing and following basic grammar  will lead you nowhere.

Iyyaka

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Re: rhetoric analysis : Does Isa is among the wicked ? (5:45-46)
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2019, 11:15:59 PM »
I don't care what is your interpretation methodology, but how can you believe in "...a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar..."? and accordingly "Does Isa is among the wicked?" Try using your I.Q. a little bit rather than getting stuck with your Book ... the circular reasoning. What is your theory of justice in this?


Premise 1: "a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar" (actual premise? literal or metaphorical?)

Premise 2: ? ? ?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion: Isa is among the wicked
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I already prove how "the structuring and organization of the text" or grammar alone etc are incompatible with the Quran ... now it's you to justify it.
Again off topic...Try (Ohhhh Sorry i forget that you are at a too high level of knowledge to do that) to make the effort to read a text completely before arguing and stay focus on it.
You only prove your arrogance.


Mahdi Ibrahim

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Re: rhetoric analysis : Does Isa is among the wicked ? (5:45-46)
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2019, 11:16:51 PM »
So your knowledge is futile?

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge (is "insanity")"  ~ Hawkins

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." ~ Albert Einstein

Ohhhh Sorry i forget that you are at a too high level of knowledge to do that

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. ~ Albert Einstein.

Premise 1: "a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar" (actual premise? literal or metaphorical?)

Premise 2: ? ? ?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion: Isa is among the wicked
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I already prove how "the structuring and organization of the text" or grammar alone etc are incompatible with the Quran ... now it's you to justify it.

Matheism is the conditions of natural harmony for all situations | What defines you?

Iyyaka

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Re: rhetoric analysis : Does Isa is among the wicked ? (5:45-46)
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2019, 11:29:12 PM »
So your knowledge is futile?

“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge”  ~ Hawkins
Knowledge is useful if it fill your heart with humility and don't let your desires overwhelm the speech of god...Otherwise you are on the wrong path. This advice is valuable for me too.

"It is from the fruit that we recognize the tree "

Mahdi Ibrahim

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Re: rhetoric analysis : Does Isa is among the wicked ? (5:45-46)
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2019, 11:32:48 PM »
Why so insecure? I'm only asking you to justify how "the structuring and organization of the text" or grammar alone is compatible with the Quran..  is that too much to ask? :rotfl:
Matheism is the conditions of natural harmony for all situations | What defines you?