Author Topic: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]  (Read 1084 times)

Iyyaka

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Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2019, 02:23:26 PM »

This is also seperate and divide by arrows/ازلام. Read very carefully.
Have you studied/meditated all ayats? We follow or try to find truth from others' works. We follow what we think is logical but we do not care to see with own eyes. When so called scholars make birds halal to eat then we do not try to see for an ayah which says Birds طیر are halal to eat. Do we? There's one ayah which mentions طیر in Jannah and the word یشتہون/یشتھون is used. What does this word mean?
God has ن ز ل eight pairs ثمنیۃ ازواج for you from an'am (39:6). What does that mean? God has asked a question regarding these eight pairs of an'am. What is answer to that question? (6:143).
Where in 22:36 it says to ڈبح an animal and feed the poor?

BTW do you like killing animals and birds?
Remember that God has every  نفس make know what is right and what is wrong. But Iblees makes our deeds good for us. (which may not be good near God.

Peace!
You know If i find good thinking from others, based on the quran himself, i have no problems to share with others (i did it with the video in this post even if i am not agree with all he said)
If a reasoning is good it doesn't matter for me to know if it comes from me or an another => Only Truth (not interpretation) is important and to serve God. But God remains my master.
Personnally, I have an experience in the quranic rhetoric and i share whith you My own works (22:40, 37:102...)
Quran is remarkably organized and Semitic Rhetoric is a good tool to approach it as i tried to demonstrate here in different posts.

Sure you have meditate al-quran.
The question we have to ask : is it my own interpretation or not ?

To answer you on these aspects : (i quote u)
(1) "God has ن ز ل eight pairs ثمنیۃ ازواج for you from an'am (39:6). What does that mean? God has asked a question regarding these eight pairs of an'am. What is answer to that question? (6:143).
(2)Where in 22:36 it says to ڈبح an animal and feed the poor?"

My answers =>
(1) Quran says that all is good to eat (except 4 kinds of foods he describes). Pagan idols had a lot of taboo, interdiction and the Quran fight against these kinds of tradition (like it did with the jews...). Sorry but simple.
(2) If you want to eat an animal before you have to kill it right ? is it not a "sacrifice" for feeding you and/or poor people? We can play with the words but the reality is there.

Peace
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

Mazhar

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Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2019, 03:54:47 PM »
Salam!

Can anyone tell what does  ضامر in 22:27 mean? And if it means a lean camel then how much flesh is there to eat in a lean camel when they reach their destination after long and difficult travelling in فج عمیق? And how much to divide and feed the poor?

I am really confused.

Peace!

Root: ض م ر

Words from this Root in the Grand Qur?ān:

a) Total occurrences: 1

Lane Lexicon: He (a horse, [&c.,] S, A, &c.) was, or became, lean, or light of flesh: (S:) or slender, and lean: (Msb:) or lean, and lank in the belly:

The mammals - beast of burden and carriage that are swift in movement are used for travel. Thereby, it can refer any swift carrier for travelling.

(Know it) They will come to you on foot from nearby vicinity;  and people will come riding upon every available swift ride; such carriers will come from every deep and distant mountain highways ? [22:27]


Sacrificial camels are named:   because they are fattened by giving them selective diet for better carcasses yield.

Root: ب د ن

http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/(88).htm

Iyyaka

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Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2019, 11:19:57 PM »
Root: ض م ر

Words from this Root in the Grand Qur’ān:

a) Total occurrences: 1

Lane Lexicon: He (a horse, [&c.,] S, A, &c.) was, or became, lean, or light of flesh: (S:) or slender, and lean: (Msb:) or lean, and lank in the belly:

The mammals - beast of burden and carriage that are swift in movement are used for travel. Thereby, it can refer any swift carrier for travelling.

(Know it) They will come to you on foot from nearby vicinity;  and people will come riding upon every available swift ride; such carriers will come from every deep and distant mountain highways — [22:27]


Sacrificial camels are named:   because they are fattened by giving them selective diet for better carcasses yield.

Root: ب د ن

http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/(88).htm
Salam Bro,

Nothing to add EXCEPT why have you translated the word "'amiqin" also by "Distant" ?

In dictionnary it means "depth, profoundness, enclosure.."

Peace
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

Mazhar

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Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2019, 11:48:43 PM »
Salam Bro,

Nothing to add EXCEPT why have you translated the word "'amiqin" also by "Distant" ?

In dictionnary it means "depth, profoundness, enclosure.."

Peace

Salam,
Lane's Lexicon

عُمْقٌ as an attribute of a road signifies distance:

TellMeTheTruth

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Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2019, 09:36:12 AM »
Root: ض م ر

Words from this Root in the Grand Qur?ān:

a) Total occurrences: 1

Lane Lexicon: He (a horse, [&c.,] S, A, &c.) was, or became, lean, or light of flesh: (S:) or slender, and lean: (Msb:) or lean, and lank in the belly:

The mammals - beast of burden and carriage that are swift in movement are used for travel. Thereby, it can refer any swift carrier for travelling.

(Know it) They will come to you on foot from nearby vicinity;  and people will come riding upon every available swift ride; such carriers will come from every deep and distant mountain highways ? [22:27]


Sacrificial camels are named:   because they are fattened by giving them selective diet for better carcasses yield.

Root: ب د ن

http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/(88).htm
Salam!
Thank you brother Mazhar for your reply. I understand that it is not ضامر to sacrifice. Instead بھیمۃ الانعام or البدن (fattened camels) are to be sacrificed. However, i think people using ضامر (swift animals to ride) cannot move faster with fattened animals like sheep, cow, camel and goat. What do you say? What is the point to use ضامر?
Pls also share link to the word بھیمۃ and انعام. What is difference between انعام and بھیمۃ الانعام? Thank you!
Peace!
Peace!

Iyyaka

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Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2019, 08:25:29 AM »
Salam,

I realized that i made a few mistakes by structuring the passage (37:100->112) according to the principles of the rhetorical analysis of the Koranic text (I recall the principle of symmetry, binary which is its heart). It will also be the opportunity to add some comments or to deepen certain aspects already treated (Basic root meaning of certain terms..)

This passage is structured according to the scheme: : A - B - B' - A'. My mistake : It is not a concentric structure as i said previously (Found in page 2 of this subject)

- A-
My responsible-of-evolution, grant me among the righteous.
So, We gave him the glad tidings of a shrewd/ḥalīmin boy.
     
     - B -
     Then when/falammā he reached with him the capacity-to-strive-and-take-action/l-saʿya,
     - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          (a)
          He said: "O my son, Indeed I have seen in the dream that I am sacrificing/adhbaḥuka you.
          so look what you think-about-it/tarā..
          - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          (a')
          He said, "O my father, do what you were commanded..
          You will find me, if God wills, among the persistent-determined/l-ṣābirīna.


     - B' -
     Then when/falammā both of them had abandonned instantly to Allah's order and he heaped it/watallahu to the
     forehead/lil'jabīni,
     - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          (a)
          And We called out to him, "O Ibrahim!
          You have fulfilled-intensively-and-step-by-step (verbal Form 2 and past tense means accomplish something) the vision.
          Indeed, We thus reward the good-doers.
               - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
               (x)
               Indeed, this (was) surely [it] an explicit trial.
               And we rewarded him with a sacrifice great.
               And we perpetuate it for him in the After.
               - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          (a')
          Peace be on Ibrahim.
          Thus We reward the good-doers.
          Indeed, he (was) among our faithful servants.

- A' -
And we gave him the glad tidings of Isaac,
a prophet among the righteous.



--- Vocabulary -----

(37:101:3)
ḥalīmin ?
Ibn Faris says its basic meaning is not to hurry, i.e. not to flare up instantly over some trivial thing. Thus, it led to the word “ تَحَلَّمَ الْمَا ل ” (tahallamal maal) which is said when the animals become fat and corpulent, and they become more sturdy too.
Therefore, “ حَلِیْمٌ ” (haleem) means understanding, authentic, stable, always one to act according to law and principle, one who does not flare up emotionally, shrewd (in relationship with mind)
Simple selflessness is the product of weakness but "hilm" encompasses a feeling of strength and energy within it, but which is under full control and which does not allow for loss of this control even under very stringent circumstances and does nothing that is cause for repentance. So it cannot be use for a child but for someone who at least reach the puberty (enough strength and and ability to reason with discernment by oneself). The following verse (37:102) will confirm it by using the word "l-saʿya".
So we cannot speak first of humility, self-effacing, soft spoken, forbearing..

(37:102:4)
l-saʿya ?
The Quran has used this word to mean run (2:260, 20:20), as well as to mean to strive for (17:19). That is, running around, struggle, strive and take action, etc.

(37:102:12)
adhbaḥuka ?
ذَبَحَ  (zabah) (yazbah): to slaughter, to split, to tear apart => To split from a normal life to an elevated life dedicated to God...
Ibn Faris also says that these are its basic meanings.

(37:102:15)
tarā ?
(rooyah): to comprehend some material thing.

This word is used for seeing with the eyes, or have insight, or to dream or think about it.

(37:102:26)
l-ṣābirīna
It is said for a long time, period

(37:103:3)
watallahu
and he put him down ?

The fundamental meaning of (tallu) is the land that is considerably higher than the surroundings.
Example -> (al-latllu min turaab) is a mound of dirt. So to heap.. The root T-L-W (close) shares alos this notion to accumulate, Something, coming after another thing etc..

We find this definition in Hebrew too : https://saintebible.com/hebrew/8510.htm

And more definition : to knock down, to lay down, to be tough, to be stocky, to agitate..What is the link with the fundamental meaning excepted lexical entries following the exegesis of the Koran. Perhaps, a solution may comes from the bible where we can find the notion of a heap but a heap (with an idea of something compact) of ruin ; following the destruction of something elevated at the origin like a city or a temple.

(37:103:4)
lil'jabīni ?
(1)   li - ل = to, for..Often allows to express possession. There is no idea of « upon/on » as many people translate it.
(2)   Jabini = forehead but not all the forehead, a precise part of the forehead . Indeed, (al- ajabeenaani) is temples (both sides of forehead) where the folds occur. Its singular is  (al- jabeenu). (al-jabhatunh) is also the fore head (this in between the temples).

Remark : Whe you lay down the animal for slaughering it you put it on one side to slaughter it with ease not on the forehead !

(37:105:7)
l-muḥ'sinīna ?
(al-husn): Muheet says that (husn), or beauty means for all limbs to be in the right proportion, and generally the word (haseen), or beautiful, is used for things which are pleasing to the eye due to their balanced proportions. As such (husn) means the right proportion and symmetry, and is the opposite of (so’a) which means unbalanced or bad.

Remark : Does even trying to kill is own son is something from god (Al-Rahman Al-Rahim) and it is something beauty and well mentally balanced ?

(37:107:3)
ʿaẓīmin
great ?
Ibn Faris says that this root means to be great and strong.
Surah An-Noor uses (azeem) to mean “importance” against (hayyin), which means “something not so important” (24:15).

--- Meditation-----

Muhammad Asad (The Message Of Quran)
2:106 : Any sign which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar one. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?
=> The sacrifice of Isaac from the bible (contradictory with the principles of the Koran) is "consign to oblivion" and replace with a better and similar one, the sacrifice of Abraham and Ismael to build a city dedicated to God..

Peace
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

Iyyaka

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Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2019, 04:33:15 AM »
Salam,

By meditating on Wakas' article (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610747.msg426248;boardseen#new) and on this other article https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610716.0, an idea came to me to try to grasp the meaning of "watallahu lil'jabīni" in (37:103).
Also by meditating on a passage that is often overlooked in (37:102) about the speech of ismael: "If Allah intends" ...
Looking at the structure of this passage more closely we can notice a Synonymy between the two parts (Below part one in red and part two in blue)

As a reminder, the sequence B speaks of the vision and the sequence B' is AFTER the vision has been realized.
Two temporal sequences that are connected and follow each other but without the central sequence that details the vision that asks to devote oneself to God.

Reminder of some parts of the structure of the passage (37:100-112)

Rhetoric analysis :

- B -
Then when/falammā he reached with him the capacity-to-strive-and-take-action/l-sa'ya,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
       (a)
       He said: "O my son, indeed I have seen in the dream that I am sacrificing/adhbaḥuka you.
       so look what you think-about-it
       - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
       (a')
       He said, "O my father, do what you were ordered.
       You will find me, if God wills, among the persistent-determined / l-ṣābirīna.

- B '-
Then when/falammā both of them had abandoned (to Allah's order)
  and watallahu to the forehead/lil'jabīni,
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
       (a)
       And We called out to him, "O Ibrahim!
       You have fulfilled-intensively-and-step-by-step.
       Indeed, We thus reward the good-doers.

Linguistic analysis :

- the root of jīm bā nūn (ج ب ن) "lil'jabīni" refers also to someone who is a coward, weak, shrink..
So lil'jabīni can symbolically represented cowardice, lack of determination and being the opposite of the root root is ṣād bā rā (ص ب ر) "l-ṣābirīna"

So, the expression"watallahu lil'jabīni,"  can means "God helped Ishmael to not to be weak, a coward and to be among the resolute/the determined/persevering" as Ishmael asks in (37:102) => he (Allah) put down the cowardise, the weakness of Ishmael.

Peace
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)