Author Topic: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]  (Read 1080 times)

Iyyaka

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Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
« on: March 31, 2019, 09:03:34 AM »
Hello everyone,

I am coming to share with you a video of a French author about the so-called sacrifice of Abraham and his son Ishmael in the Koran.
For French-speaking here is the link of the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD_gP9bAQb4&t=580s
For the English-speaking below a synthesis of the arguments presented by the author to provide a new translation and vision of this Koranic passage .

Faced with a problem of understanding, the human being naturally has the inclination to compare with something familiar to him or similar to him in his cultural experience. This fact can be a trap as i hope (we the help of God) the present example will demonstrate you: Indeed the traditional exegesis have understood, in this koranic passage, only a reformulation of the story of the sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham in the Bible; with the only difference is about the replacement of Isaac by Ishmael.
But the meditation in detail of this Koranic passage lead us on a whole other level of sense.
I let you discover it...

But before starting I want to emphasize my disagreement with the author on 1 point: when he presents the Bayt as the Kaaba.
Otherwise the whole of the argument is remarkable and demonstrates how much the meditation work can be done with humility and with full confidence in the text.

------ Improved traditional translation with red question marks --------------

[37: 100] Lord, grant me some virtuous ".
[37: 101] We gave him the good news of a forebearing son.
[37: 102] When he was old enough to go with him,
He says, "O my son, I see myself in my sleep sacrificing you.
See what you think about it.
He said, "O my father, Do what is ordained to you.
You will find me, God willing, one of the steadfast.
[37: 103] When both of them were submissive, and he was laid by his forehead,
[37: 104] We called him, "O Abraham!
[37: 105] You have faith in the vision. "
This is how We reward the doers of good.
[37: 106] This was a clear test.
[37: 107] We redeemed him from a considerable sacrifice.
[37: 108] We have perpetuated his memory in posterity.
[37: 109] Peace over Abraham.
[37: 110] Thus We reward the doers of good.
[37: 111] He was of Our believing servants.
[37: 112] We gave him Isaac, a prophet among the righteous.

------- Arguments of the author is articulated around 4 main axes ------------

          1) The argument from "our healthy human nature" (Arabic:fitra)

- How could God, who calls himself "al rahman al rahim", ask Abraham to slaughter his own son? In the Qur'an only the devil can whisper such ineptitude (Cf. Surah 114)

- How Abraham, (who is known to question everything / After having trouble to have sons he asked God to make them as virtuous), does not he question at least God about this big and horrible sacrifice and runs it  immediately after his son gave him his assent ?


          2) The linguistic argumentation

- The word "a'theem" ​​[37: 107] which means "immense, commensurable, incommensurable" can not refer to an animal; the word "sheep" does not appear here in the text.

- The word "adhba uka" [37: 102] = "Sacrifice" can be used literally as well as figuratively. We will see later what direction to give it (figurative meaning = "To devote oneself to a cause for God ...").
    o NB: Wakas has already correctly made this remark in the following post: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13069.msg273059#msg273059

- The word "Talla" [37: 103]: a "hapax" in the Koran can demonstrates the vigilance to have with classical Arabic dictionaries (There are sometimes lexical entries required by the traditionnal exegesis)

    o Dictionary: This word has the meaning of "something to raise"
              => Look at "Hans wehr" dictionary : http://ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=129,ll=347,ls=5,la=438,sg=203,ha=78,br=160,pr=31,vi=90,mgf=137,mr=103,mn=136,aan=94,kz=213,uqq=44,ulq=440,uqa=67,uqw=203,umr=166,ums=121,umj=96,bdw=151,amr=96,asb=94,auh=262,dhq=77,mht=77,msb=37,tla=33,amj=84,ens=982,mis=212).
So, Talla = Heap or tall = hill ?

    o Hebrew language (sister language): this same root refers to the idea of ​​hill (Ex -> Tel Haviv)

    o Ayats-letters (my personal contribution and not from the author of the video): Root Word - Ta-Lam-Lam:
 "Ta" = sign, mark, visible...
 "Lam" = Liaison
 "Lam" = Liaison
             ? Abstract sense = "link on link up to Something is visible/distinc with an idea of high".

- The word "sabirin" [37: 102] = "enduring, patient, persevering" applies only for something long lasting that takes place in time

- The word "Mu'sinina" = "Beneficial/Good doers" [37: 105] = What is the relation about Killing his son? Does Beneficial means "Not to execute an order of God"?
The word "Beneficial" expresses the idea that something has been done well (real act) ! as shown by the use of the word.


          3) The argument from all the structure of the Surah 37 "those who line up"

- Link the first verses to the penultimate [37: 181] "almursaleen" = "the envoys" to understand who refers to "as-saffat" and discover the theme of the surah.   

    o Definition: God speaks of the envoys who are on the same line, who are aligned on the same thing, who sacrifices himself entirely for the cause of god and thus ensures the transmission of the divine reminder as in a relay race (Ex -> image athletics).

- Detailed commentary of the content of the surah

          o From the sign [37: 6] to the sign [37: 74] = God describes all those who rejected this unique program and those who adopted it ("La ilaha illa allah")

          o From the sign [37: 75] to the sign [37: 82] = The sacrifice of Noah
         => Watarakna 'alayhi fee al-akhireena [37: 78]

          o From the sign [37: 83] to the sign [37: 113] = The sacrifice of Abraham and his sons and especially Ishmael because Issac is mentioned AFTER the story of Abraham and his son
         => Watarakna alayhi fee al-akhireena [37: 108]

          o From the sign [37: 114] to the sign [37: 122] = The sacrifice of Moses and Aaron
          => Watarakna 'alayhima fee al-akhireena [37: 119]

          o From the sign [37: 123] to the sign [37: 132] = The sacrifice of Elijah
         =>  Watarakna 'alayhi fee al-akhireena [37: 129]

          o From the sign [37: 133] to the sign [37: 180] = The sacrifice of Lot - Jonah - All sent


           4) The Koranic intratextual argumentation (Arabic:Tartil)

    - The continuation of this surah is found in sura 2 "Baqarah" (The heifer) in [2: 124 ... 2: 127] => God clarifies the purpose of the sacrifice of Abraham and Ishmael (The Monotheist Group (The Quran: A Monotheist Translation)

2:124 And Abraham was tested by words from His Lord, which he fulfilled. He said: "I will make you a leader for the people." He said: "And also from my progeny?" He said: "My pledge will not encompass the wicked."
2:125 And We have made the Sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. And you shall take, from the station of Abraham, a place for making the contact. And We entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael: "You shall purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, and those who are devoted, and the kneeling, the prostrating."
2:126 And Abraham said: "My Lord, make this a land of peace, and provide for its inhabitants of the fruits for whoever believes in God and the Last Day." He said: "As for he who rejects, I will let him enjoy for a while, then I will force him to the retribution of the Fire. What a miserable destiny!"
2:127 And as Abraham raised from the Sanctuary its foundations, along with Ishmael: "Our Lord accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable."
2:128 "Our Lord, and let us submit to You and from our progeny a nation submitting to You, and show us our rites, and forgive us; You are the Forgiver, the Merciful."


------ New translation (leads by the meaning) taking into account these arguments from the Quran alone ------

[37: 100] Master, give me by grace (from offspring) among the upright ".
[37: 101] We gave him a shrewd boy.
[37: 102] When he was old enough to actively help his father,
He said: "O my son, I had a vision in my dream: I was consecrating you (to a great cause).
Take the time to think and tell me how you see this vision.
He said, "O my father, do what is ordained to you.
You will find me, God willing, one of the steadfast.
[37: 103] When both had done what was necessary, and the (Bayt) was raised at the level of the forehead,
[37: 104] We called him, "O Abraham!
[37: 105] You have realized the vision well.
This is how We reward the excellent ones.
          [37:106] This was an explicit test.
[37: 107] We rewarded him with a sacrifice beyond measure
[37: 108] By perpetuated it (sacrifice) to the last.


May this presentation be beneficial to you and may God bless you with benefits

Peace be upon you
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

Mazhar

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Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2019, 11:44:58 AM »
1. Father is repetitively watching a dream doing same act that suggests he is going to sacrifice his son.
2. He did not execute his dream. Were he willing to do it, he could have done it on first watch even without bringing into the notice of his son.
3. Repetitive dream of same act forces him to take it seriously since the fundamentals of interpretation of dreams suggested it to be not of unconscious and passive nature.
4. He places it before his son to know his perception.
5. The son interprets it as Command of Allah the Exalted and expresses it in such manner indicating that the Father also had arrived to same conclusion.
6. After this consensus, at that point in time, فَلَمَّا أَسْلَمَا  when they both had at their own willingly agreed-accepted it as command of Allah the Exalted. Particle Fa is a conjunction indicating cause and effect. Verb is Perfect; Third person; dual; masculine; [Form-IV], [الف] Subject pronoun, in nominative state; مصدر اسْلاَمٌ Verbal Noun. For correctly perceiving text about episodes in any language, care needs to be taken for time and space indicated therein.
7. It is important to note that the son did not himself lie down but father laid him وَتَلَّهُ لِلْجَبِينِ down in the manner as vertebrates are sacrificed.
8. That was the point in time that he hears an emergency call aimed at immediately stopping him from further action.
9. Allah the Exalted tells him that he has affirmed, proven it to be exactly what he had seen in dream.

The intention of command through repetitive dreams is also indicated that it was just a manifest trial; and trial as we know is for purposes of exposure of one's sincerity, and for objects to determine their purity percentage. Actual Slaughter of son was not intended as disclosed by Allah the Exalted.

وَفَدَيْنَاهُ بِذِبْحٍ عَظِيم

And Our Majesty compensated him by sacrifice of a male mammal, characteristically great in bone: not juvenile but adult?

I do not think that an animal meant for sacrifice has any thing do with what we perceive by the word great. Its primary signification is a state when someone has become great in bone [not juvenile but adult].

It is a long tradition that only adult male mammals are sacrificed as was done by Ibrahim alaihissalm. It also helps balance the population of mammals since extra males are but a problem and nuisance for female population.

Iyyaka

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Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2019, 12:22:51 PM »
You quote me Bro the traditionnal view that i know by heart.

Please try to re-read this quranic passage with the eyes and the heart of a new born...and look at carefully the signs from allah in the quran.

At least make attention of these 3 words (from corpus.quran.com) => It indicates something is ACHIEVED.

1)

(37:105:2)
ṣaddaqta
you have fulfilled

2)

(37:102:2)
balagha
he reached

(37:102:3)
maʿahu
with him

l-saʿya
the (age of) working/make efforts with him

=> Noun
(2:260:34) saʿyan
(in) haste
ثُمَّ اجْعَلْ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ جَبَلٍ مِنْهُنَّ جُزْءًا ثُمَّ ادْعُهُنَّ يَأْتِينَكَ سَعْيًا
(17:19:6) saʿyahā
the effort
وَسَعَىٰ لَهَا سَعْيَهَا وَهُوَ مُؤْمِنٌ فَأُولَٰئِكَ كَانَ سَعْيُهُمْ مَشْكُورًا
(17:19:11) saʿyuhum
their effort
فَأُولَٰئِكَ كَانَ سَعْيُهُمْ مَشْكُورًا
(18:104:3) saʿyuhum
their effort
الَّذِينَ ضَلَّ سَعْيُهُمْ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا
(21:94:9) lisaʿyihi
[of] his effort
فَمَنْ يَعْمَلْ مِنَ الصَّالِحَاتِ وَهُوَ مُؤْمِنٌ فَلَا كُفْرَانَ لِسَعْيِهِ
(37:102:4) l-saʿya
the (age of) working with him
فَلَمَّا بَلَغَ مَعَهُ السَّعْيَ قَالَ يَا بُنَيَّ إِنِّي أَرَىٰ فِي الْمَنَامِ أَنِّي أَذْبَحُكَ
(53:40:2) saʿyahu
his striving
وَأَنَّ سَعْيَهُ سَوْفَ يُرَىٰ
(76:22:7) saʿyukum
your effort
إِنَّ هَٰذَا كَانَ لَكُمْ جَزَاءً وَكَانَ سَعْيُكُمْ مَشْكُورًا
(88:9:1) lisaʿyihā
With their effort
لِسَعْيِهَا رَاضِيَةٌ
(92:4:2) saʿyakum
your efforts
إِنَّ سَعْيَكُمْ لَشَتَّىٰ

3)
(37:105:7)
l-muḥ'sinīna
the good-doers.

Peace
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

Mazhar

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Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2019, 12:56:50 PM »
You quote me Bro the traditionnal view that i know by heart.

Please try to re-read this quranic passage with the eyes and the heart of a new born...and look at carefully the signs from allah in the quran.

At least make attention of these 3 words (from corpus.quran.com) => It indicates something is ACHIEVED.

1)

(37:105:2)
ṣaddaqta
you have fulfilled

2)

(37:102:2)
balagha
he reached

(37:102:3)
maʿahu
with him

l-saʿya
the (age of) working/make efforts with him

=> Noun
(2:260:34) saʿyan
(in) haste
ثُمَّ اجْعَلْ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ جَبَلٍ مِنْهُنَّ جُزْءًا ثُمَّ ادْعُهُنَّ يَأْتِينَكَ سَعْيًا
(17:19:6) saʿyahā
the effort
وَسَعَىٰ لَهَا سَعْيَهَا وَهُوَ مُؤْمِنٌ فَأُولَٰئِكَ كَانَ سَعْيُهُمْ مَشْكُورًا
(17:19:11) saʿyuhum
their effort
فَأُولَٰئِكَ كَانَ سَعْيُهُمْ مَشْكُورًا
(18:104:3) saʿyuhum
their effort
الَّذِينَ ضَلَّ سَعْيُهُمْ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا
(21:94:9) lisaʿyihi
[of] his effort
فَمَنْ يَعْمَلْ مِنَ الصَّالِحَاتِ وَهُوَ مُؤْمِنٌ فَلَا كُفْرَانَ لِسَعْيِهِ
(37:102:4) l-saʿya
the (age of) working with him
فَلَمَّا بَلَغَ مَعَهُ السَّعْيَ قَالَ يَا بُنَيَّ إِنِّي أَرَىٰ فِي الْمَنَامِ أَنِّي أَذْبَحُكَ
(53:40:2) saʿyahu
his striving
وَأَنَّ سَعْيَهُ سَوْفَ يُرَىٰ
(76:22:7) saʿyukum
your effort
إِنَّ هَٰذَا كَانَ لَكُمْ جَزَاءً وَكَانَ سَعْيُكُمْ مَشْكُورًا
(88:9:1) lisaʿyihā
With their effort
لِسَعْيِهَا رَاضِيَةٌ
(92:4:2) saʿyakum
your efforts
إِنَّ سَعْيَكُمْ لَشَتَّىٰ

3)
(37:105:7)
l-muḥ'sinīna
the good-doers.

Peace

I loudly discard all traditional and so called modernist translations. I study the original text strictly following academic rules.

He was told that whatever you used to see in the dreams you have already done it. He did not see having slaughtered his son. 

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Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2019, 11:14:08 PM »
I loudly discard all traditional and so called modernist translations. I study the original text strictly following academic rules.

He was told that whatever you used to see in the dreams you have already done it. He did not see having slaughtered his son.

Lets see how valid is your loud claim.

Translation from your website for 37:102

فَلَمَّا بَلَغَ مَعَهُ ٱلسَّعۡىَ قَالَ يَـٰبُنَىَّ إِنِّىٓ أَرَىٰ فِى ٱلۡمَنَامِ أَنِّىٓ أَذۡبَحُكَ فَٱنظُرۡ مَاذَا تَرَىٰ‌ۚ قَالَ يَـٰٓأَبَتِ ٱفۡعَلۡ مَا تُؤۡمَرُ‌ۖ سَتَجِدُنِىٓ إِن شَآءَ ٱللَّهُ مِنَ ٱلصَّـٰبِرِينَ

"O My dear child, it is a fact that I keep seeing during sleep that I am about to slaughter you. Therefore, you look into it as to what you perceive about this phenomenon?"

There is no "about to" in Arabic text. Your claim to discard all traditional and modernist translations is not supported by your inflated translations.

One can never get the message of Quran if he/she does not approach it with a clean slate. Pre-conceived concepts will pollute the message.

56:79 لَّا يَمَسُّهُ ۥۤ إِلَّا ٱلۡمُطَهَّرُونَ

Only people with clean slate can get this message.

Mazhar

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Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2019, 01:56:46 AM »
Lets see how valid is your loud claim.

Translation from your website for 37:102

فَلَمَّا بَلَغَ مَعَهُ ٱلسَّعۡىَ قَالَ يَـٰبُنَىَّ إِنِّىٓ أَرَىٰ فِى ٱلۡمَنَامِ أَنِّىٓ أَذۡبَحُكَ فَٱنظُرۡ مَاذَا تَرَىٰ‌ۚ قَالَ يَـٰٓأَبَتِ ٱفۡعَلۡ مَا تُؤۡمَرُ‌ۖ سَتَجِدُنِىٓ إِن شَآءَ ٱللَّهُ مِنَ ٱلصَّـٰبِرِينَ

"O My dear child, it is a fact that I keep seeing during sleep that I am about to slaughter you. Therefore, you look into it as to what you perceive about this phenomenon?"

There is no "about to" in Arabic text. Your claim to discard all traditional and modernist translations is not supported by your inflated translations.

One can never get the message of Quran if he/she does not approach it with a clean slate. Pre-conceived concepts will pollute the message.

56:79 لَّا يَمَسُّهُ ۥۤ إِلَّا ٱلۡمُطَهَّرُونَ

Only people with clean slate can get this message.

There are different type of texts by structure and meanings. The author writes with the presumption that the reader is aware how a text is read and how meanings are drawn conveying the intended message.

If you are aware what type of a text is in Ayah 37:100-113, it will be easy for me to explain it to you what I have written.

Wakas

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All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

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Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2019, 08:24:55 AM »
There are different type of texts by structure and meanings. The author writes with the presumption that the reader is aware how a text is read and how meanings are drawn conveying the intended message.

If you are aware what type of a text is in Ayah 37:100-113, it will be easy for me to explain it to you what I have written.

The text in the Quraan is the word of Allah which He revealed for the guidance of human beings. He made it simple enough for us to get guidance from it.

54:17 وَلَقَدۡ يَسَّرۡنَا ٱلۡقُرۡءَانَ لِلذِّكۡرِ فَهَلۡ مِن مُّدَّكِرٍ۬

And we made the Quraan easy for reminder so is there one to take the reminder.


Mazhar

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Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2019, 08:40:48 AM »
The text in the Quraan is the word of Allah which He revealed for the guidance of human beings. He made it simple enough for us to get guidance from it.

54:17 وَلَقَدۡ يَسَّرۡنَا ٱلۡقُرۡءَانَ لِلذِّكۡرِ فَهَلۡ مِن مُّدَّكِرٍ۬

And we made the Quraan easy for reminder so is there one to take the reminder.



The statement that Qur?ān is rendered facilitative has the value of a claim - to say, without proof or evidence, that something is true. Since the statement is about a book which is meant for reading and comprehending, the statement will be true if the book facilitates the reader both in its reading and comprehension. This is the extent of the statement. If the critical reader finds the statement true to its extent it will obviously highlight the value, quality and importance of the book whereby he will become sincere and reverent for it.

For making some thing easy, facilitator we need to do something. We must know how is it made easy only then it will become easily understandable.

Iyyaka

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Re: Did Abraham really dream of slaughtering his son? [37:103]
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2019, 09:53:17 AM »
Salam,

@ Wakas => thank you for the links (scattered on different topics). One of the main difference is about the translation of the verb "Talla" in 37:103 and coherence with the rest of the Quran.

@ Novice => Yes. It is an effort of everyone to be humble in front of God and his words.
 I have to struggle all the time with my mind and my ego
=> God confirms and sometimes corrected history into the bible. Infortunately, In many cases, we have assisted at a "biblisation" of the quran while the quran offer a new lecture of the bible. This example is for me the proof.

Peace
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)