Author Topic: quran434.com  (Read 7524 times)

jkhan

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Re: quran434.com
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2019, 05:30:34 AM »
Peace all...

I am really afraid that anyone who still claim that God advise hitting woman then that person really should check his mentality. ...
Why this much confusion.... God says He is fair... If God allow men to hit women,  what kind of fair God He is...
No simply no... Something is wrong in your Arabic and knowledge in understanding it...
Just take a look at the below beautiful verse..
4:128
"And if a woman fears from her husband contempt or evasion, there is no sin upon them if they make terms of settlement between them - and settlement is best. And present in [human] souls is stinginess. But if you do good and fear Allah - then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted."

In 4:34 and 4:128 Fear is imperative... What is this fear? I think now that this fear is not man or woman has some sexual relationship.... I also thought but it is not... I think this is kind Serious I'll conduct which doesn't suit to the other partner... Simply one partner cannot hold anymore the behavior of the other... That's what fear is all about... If the woman has had sexual relationship with another man while married... Hitting is not the law given in QURAN... It has different law... Do I need to say what is it?  Everyone knows... Husbands  or wife's solo witness is enoigh against his her partner... So,  punishment should be 100 lashes.. Not husband hitting....
Here it is only mischievous conduct which husband cannot bear and she doesn't reform....
And same in 4:128 she fears about her husband. She would have waited for long but no option rather than separation.. God didn't give the same advice as 4:34 what is given to man... Coz it is far from reality... That advices to husband who has illconduct or keeping him away from bed... That's only suit as advice to a good believing man... while for a good believing woman 4:128 suits... Coz she can't tolerate with him for no reason...
Just tell me now... Still you want to hit your wife... OMG... That's insane.... You want to hit your sisters and mothers and any woken under your dependence for their illconduct.... Then why only wife?  That's bizarre man quality.... That's not a man... That's a coward..

Actually I can't bear what's being discussed here by few supporting hitting...

Take the two verses 4:34 and 4:128 ...
If a woman says my husband is aggressive and hitting me so I need divorce as per 4:128 ... Then husband can say in 4:34 it is allowed for me to hit her... Pls stop this nonsense... Common sense is vest to understand any book what's written in it...

Pls everyone don't overcook this topic... Without your knowledge some may take what you say as advice and hit wife... Don't be part of violence by instructing with lack of knowledge....
God guard all beliving men from this mean task of hitting wives... 😡😠😡 :brickwall: :elektro:

huruf

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Re: quran434.com
« Reply #61 on: February 19, 2019, 07:55:08 AM »
Tehre are no husbands or wives in the aya. There are males, en general, women in general, and ten there are some women respecting which the community may fear something, not the husbands.

Women exist regardles whether yhere is a husbando or there is not.

This mentalisty is so self-male centered that if women are mentionned at all it must from the point of view that they belong to some man.

This is very deressing and unQura'nic. You ll are forbidding the Qur'an to speak of women without belonging to a male. The Qur'an does not mention any particular man or men regarding those women about which the ommunity may fer something.

What about poor women which may have children and o support and may resot to prostitution?

Oh but in islam there is no prostitution. Everything is perfect, it has always been perfect and the only thing that can be feared from women or for womn is that they may not please their husband owners.

DEPRESSING

Salaam

Neptin

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Re: quran434.com
« Reply #62 on: February 19, 2019, 07:57:32 AM »
Every generation of humans looks at the previous and is horrified by some of the accepted norms. The next generation will look at some of our actions that we think are in accordance with the Quran and will be horrified. They will then have to reinterpret.

When slavery was acceptable the Quran did not contradict it.
When misogyny was acceptable the Quran did not contradict it.
When homosexuality was a sin the Quran did not contradict it. Now that we are becoming more acceptable of it we are seeing the new interpretations.
One day people will claim Quran was a champion of gay rights just as it is now a champion of women's rights.
Tomorrow, we will take a different view on another topic and Quranists will rush out with new translations and claim 2019 Quranists had it wrong.

Neptin, sadly no one here will see your point.

     

Not bad. But the writing is on the wall. Until few months ago, I thought my own interpretation was right, unbiased and as objective as it could get. I was an advocate of Islamic Reform(I still am, only less so), because I thought we could read the Qur'an objectively, recover and spread the pristine, progressive message that traditionalists have distorted or buried.

Quote from: huruf
Believers are being addressed, believers in general, females and males. It is believing people who is being addressed, not males. Look carefully at the pronouns, males are mentionned as third person masculine plural, just as women who are mentionned as third person feminine plural, but the addressee is second person plural retorical gender, that is, inclusive gender, the second person generic plual is addressed just as in previous ayas and just as in the following ayas. At no time is the addressee changed, beliebers in general are addressed all along.

huruf, the verse won't work that way. It is dealing with marital issues that is still between the husband and wife. The believers only intervene in the next verse. The believers do not forsake the women in bed, unless they are her husband.

The second person plural pronoun works for men as well and just because in the early part of the verse the third person masculine pronoun was used doesn't mean in the latter part second person plural can't apply. Your argument would be stronger if the entire verse was one long sentence, rather than multiple sentence broken apart with punctuation.

Quote
Actually I can't bear what's being discussed here by few supporting hitting...

Take the two verses 4:34 and 4:128 ...
If a woman says my husband is aggressive and hitting me so I need divorce as per 4:128 ... Then husband can say in 4:34 it is allowed for me to hit her... Pls stop this nonsense... Common sense is vest to understand any book what's written in it...

Pls everyone don't overcook this topic... Without your knowledge some may take what you say as advice and hit wife... Don't be part of violence by instructing with lack of knowledge....
God guard all beliving men from this mean task of hitting wives... 😡😠😡 :brickwall: :elektro:

Peace jkhan.

I've made it clear that I prefer the 'separate' or 'cite' interpretation, so where do you get the impression that I condone hitting wives?

Your exegesis is similar to goodlogic and I commend you both. But I'm afraid it won't amount to anything. Wife beating, provided no physical injury is caused - is justifiable to some people and they won't think twice about the traditional interpretation of 4:34. 

Reclaiming Islam from extremism;
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jkhan

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Re: quran434.com
« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2019, 08:08:20 AM »
Tehre are no husbands or wives in the aya. There are males, en general, women in general, and ten there are some women respecting which the community may fear something, not the husbands.

Women exist regardles whether yhere is a husbando or there is not.

This mentalisty is so self-male centered that if women are mentionned at all it must from the point of view that they belong to some man.

This is very deressing and unQura'nic. You ll are forbidding the Qur'an to speak of women without belonging to a male. The Qur'an does not mention any particular man or men regarding those women about which the ommunity may fer something.

What about poor women which may have children and o support and may resot to prostitution?

Oh but in islam there is no prostitution. Everything is perfect, it has always been perfect and the only thing that can be feared from women or for womn is that they may not please their husband owners.

DEPRESSING

Salaam

Peace...
Are you sure what you say in your first para.....
Are you losing your memory with  time... I wonder...
How come one share bed ?... How come God orders not to share bed....
Can we keep a women from sharing bed before marriage..... Lol....

huruf

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Re: quran434.com
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2019, 08:30:27 AM »
No Neptin, be thourough. The addresse is second person plural retoric gender which goes back to the "ya ayyuha alldhina amanu" in aya 29. An there is not mention whatsoever of husbands or wives or any such relationshipp, if you see husbands or wives in the aya but do not see the addresse, I cannot see any use inyour reading th Qura'n, it is as good if one makes it up straighy as one pleases. There are third person masculine plural which stand for males and third person femimine plural which stand for women, not husbands o wives.

Teh rest of your message I have not read. Just the start is too depressing ofr me to carry on any further.

I really do nto hold much hope for any renewal of qura'nic islam in "quranists" circles. A certain stage hs been reached where everybody seems to be as immovilist as anybody has ever been. This far, not more, beyond, like in the world charts of the 14th century "there be monsters".

I still look some posts because one never knows where one might come accross something that may lead to some interesting work, but really like int he gospels one feels like the sentence "let the dead bury their dead".

Salaam

good logic

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Re: quran434.com
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2019, 11:57:46 AM »
Peace All.
It is not by coincidence that we are discussing Qoran and having disagreements and wide views about it.
Nor it is just this generation that is doing so. History is littered with thousands of books about this book that differ and argue and....Hundreds of sects have been trying to enforce their understanding  on others but the analysis of the book continues...

So why is Qoran not straight forward to some, an enigma for others, old fables to another group, a miracle to... and so on...?

What is it about the book that keeps generation after generation searching its meaning and still finding room for improvement/still disagreeing most of its contents?
What is it about the book that keeps surprising many about its secrets?
Don t you find this odd everyone?  This book keeps advertising itself in a new way to each generation why?

Then there are these other types of questions:

Why do we need any agreement from others on what we understand through our  own effort of the book?

Why do we need to "force" our understanding of the book on others?

Why  do we need to read the book over and over again and still find new information on it?

Burhan, Neptin, brothers and sisters ,what we are doing here is normal as far as Qoran is concerned.

Some see this book with a lot of issues,some follow others understanding on it, some want to really understand this book by themselves and are giving it the benefit of a doubt, some want to work on their own issues befiore they can really tackle  understanding this book properly, some believe this book is from GOD and our standard of understanding needs evolving and help from the author before we can grasp it, some do not care about the book...and so on...

There is no doubt that the book is a puzzle ,a wonder puzzle that needs "something" to unlock its  secrets,if we ever get to unlock all its secrets.

Speaking for myself, I have known this book since late 1990 s , I have skimmed it for years . I took it seriously since 2009/2010 and I am amazed at how little I know about it now.
Why can t this book be straight forward like an instruction manual or a novel? I mean less  difficult?

 Brothers Burhan and Neptin, I have been there and understand your concern and take on Qoran, but I disagree that the book itself is the issue. People s take on it is the issue.

Of course the basic of try our best to be  good humans , do good deeds and have good morals is crystal clear in it. The minimum requirement for GOD s approval. 
But the devil is in all the other details. I mean the force that is driving the majority behind this mystery.
Of course I never exclude myself from those who may deluded.
This is ongoing brothers and sisters and it will carry on along the line until GOD puts the stop sign on that day.
Happy discussions.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.
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hawk99

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Re: quran434.com
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2019, 05:59:57 PM »
Peace All.
It is not by coincidence that we are discussing Qoran and having disagreements and wide views about it.
Nor it is just this generation that is doing so. History is littered with thousands of books about this book that differ and argue and....Hundreds of sects have been trying to enforce their understanding  on others but the analysis of the book continues...

So why is Qoran not straight forward to some, an enigma for others, old fables to another group, a miracle to... and so on...?

What is it about the book that keeps generation after generation searching its meaning and still finding room for improvement/still disagreeing most of its contents?
What is it about the book that keeps surprising many about its secrets?
Don t you find this odd everyone?  This book keeps advertising itself in a new way to each generation why?

Then there are these other types of questions:

Burhan, Neptin, brothers and sisters ,what we are doing here is normal as far as Qoran is concerned.

Some see this book with a lot of issues,some follow others understanding on it, some want to really understand this book by themselves and are giving it the benefit of a doubt, some want to work on their own issues befiore they can really tackle  understanding this book properly, some believe this book is from GOD and our standard of understanding needs evolving and help from the author before we can grasp it, some do not care about the book...and so on...

There is no doubt that the book is a puzzle ,a wonder puzzle that needs "something" to unlock its  secrets,if we ever get to unlock all its secrets.

Why can t this book be straight forward like an instruction manual or a novel? I mean less  difficult?


GOD bless you all.
Peace.

Allah says many are lead astray by the use of examples (mathalan).

[2:26]   Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito
or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is the
truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did
Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides
many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient,


[3:7] explains the perspective one should take.

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are
verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and
others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth],
they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking
an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true]
interpretation except Allah. But those firm in knowledge say,
"We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded
except those of understanding.

Here is part of the deen:

[2:177]  Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or
the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the
Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in
spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those
who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer
and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise;
and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle.
Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the
righteous.

[30:21]
And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that
you may find tranquility in them; and He placed between you affection
and mercy. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought.

we argue about should we beat up the wife?   :nope:

We should not oppress the believer.

How can we separate amicably after acts of violence?

Will abuse bring us closer?

Where is the peace/ tranquility?   

[2:256] We really have no arguments  :)  because of the clear verses.
So if someone wants to argue that the earth is flat, or that the flood was
global, or that swine is lawful to eat, or we should attack our wives
they are coming from the speculative perspective of the deen.  One
should apply the "metaphorical brakes" and not own such a position,
however, if in regards to speculation if a believer wants to discuss
a topic it is fine as long as the speculative topic is not owned by the
speculator.

[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify
it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain,
and you are responsible for using them.

Here is why [4:34] is talking about "separation".
First we talk/chastise one another, then avoid each other then think
about ending it, but before we do: 4/35.

[4:35] And if you fear dissension/discord/separation/dispute/divorce
between the two, send an arbitrator from his people and an arbitrator
from her people. If they both desire reconciliation, Allah will
cause it between them. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Acquainted.

                                                :peace:
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden

imrankhawaja

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Re: quran434.com
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2019, 07:31:24 PM »

[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify
it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain,
and you are responsible for using them.


Hmm also author tells us about people who are ?metaphorically? blind,deaf,dumb they will not return to the right direction (2:18).

it included all those people you listed in list specially flat earth believers  :handshake:

u know sometimes i think carefully about flat earth beleivers and apparent question that was coming in my mind from so long i get it (solved) by logic.

i was wondering even after knowing God is truth iblesss refuse to submitt. why?
now after having witnessed some stupids in life i have same question how come someone believe and debate on grass is not green or earth is flat? .

2:18 is quite logical and experimental.

even if u take them to ISS they will say you comments:

1 our eyes cheating us thats y it appear round to us from so (far).
2 nasa mix something in our drinks what make us earth look like massive ball.
3 gravity and other things were programmed in my mind that i m flying and playing balls game and playing with water bubbles.
4 hairs get dressed/makeup before it shows effect of zero g lmao.
5 mathematics is fake becoz only athiest can understand it complexity hahaha  :rotfl:
6 even if u took them to moon they will say it was area 51.

considering all this we can still understand how can a ? metaphorical blind?  can exist in this time/space. but we already have them so we have to live with it unfortunately or lucikly stupidity and intelligence is side of same coin walk and exist side by side in a continous process of life cycle.





good logic

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Re: quran434.com
« Reply #68 on: February 20, 2019, 03:56:08 AM »
Peace brothers and sisters.
What is at stake here ,I mean in this life?
Our justice system can have loopholes, bias judges, rich people who pay their way out...etc. Our justice system is imperfect.
So often people get away with things ,even murder.

But if you believe Qoran, you know you are accountable to GOD s justice, not ours and will come to find out after studying the message that there are no loopholes, and no excuses.
Try this experiment, if you have not done so already. Imagine you are facing GOD for your accountability. Write a list you could give GOD as a good excuse for not following His instructions/commands.
Here are some questions/statements I wrote in my list:
-Why did you create me with only a little knowledge?
-How can I use this little knowledge to tackle your bigger knowledge?
-Why is it my fault since I can never know for certain things beyond my knowledge that I read/see in your message?
-How do I know I am on the right track for salvation since I am using only what you gave me,imperfection?
-Why choose multi meaning words that can be difficult to adapt..?
...Just to give an example,there were many more.

Then start crossing out the excuses that become obvious to you there are not genuine excuses. i.e you know they cannot hold even on our court of law because you know better after you study more.

My excuses started to becopme less and less as my study of Qoran and my hunger for knowledge increased.
This verse was the culprit:

"Akadhabtum Bi Aayati"---Did you disbelieve/taken lightly/ taken as a lie...my Aayat---"Wa Lam Tuhitu Biha Ilman"---Without studying/investigating/searching/gaining knowledge...about my Aayat---"Am Mada Kuntum Tafhaloon"---Or what is it you were doing?---.

The point is, we go back to GOD as individuals,not as a groups of sects!!!
We have to make sure as much as we can with the knowledge we possess about every single Aaya.
Each will answer for his/her own case.
GOD bless you.
Peace
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imrankhawaja

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Re: quran434.com
« Reply #69 on: February 20, 2019, 04:50:31 AM »
its a funny story but got moral in it.

a husband beat his women out of these common reasons.

1 she dnt cook good food( sometimes more salt sometime more spice etc).
2 she dnt look after the massive and big family of her inlaws.
3 she refuse to share bed when she tired after hard day of labouring husbands house and family.
4 she ask for the basic rights ( for running a house). if she got no money its mean husband will stay hungry and will beat her why she didnt cook anything.?

list is big but without ?cheating?/immoral factor.

after suffering from all this wife decide to cheat on husband. for the need of satisfying (body/self) and on other words with one cheat she can get multi purposes.

revenge from husband beating.
making impure what suppose to b pure ( like someone else son he will call his son).
satisfaction/food of body called as SEX. as a human need .
she is becoming a cause of husbands insult in society by doing this.
she can become a cause of trouble and in most of the cases the guy she select will beat up the husband easily lmao.

NOW their case is in court.

husband : i beat her coz my God give me permisson.
wife : i do what he force me to do after struggling a lot. he played his part and i played my part.

whatsoever they do they will end in seperation pemanently.

the BEAT thing only worsen the case.
its impossible if we can get anything GOOD from beating.

so after considering all this a wise man will not listen the shit written anywhere what cause harm more than benefit.

i dnt need grammer to undertand it. or accept it if my grammer force me to accept.
the fear of rejection comes from society and the books also comes from society same like ideas of wife beating etc.

the example above is LAW of applying wrong law to creator.
and said people things about God what god never order.

so God response is happening in disgrace/defetaed/sadness/humilation as a package.
he listen to God but what he get after that ?

so basically it was a wrong call to wrong God.upon recieving that call simply press RED button without any fear.