Author Topic: quran434.com  (Read 7931 times)

burhan

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Re: quran434.com
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2019, 03:04:14 PM »
Quote
Note you had to clarify/correct yourself, but I'm afraid you will have to correct/clarify yourself again

You asked for a clarification which I duly provided. Now you are disparaging me for doing the very thing you asked me to do. The more pride you show the harder it will be for you to change your mind.

CAT-1 is self-evident. You can't physically hit an abstract object, which is why I didn't explicitly mention it. We know the meaning of those verses can never be physical contact. So whether the sentences use prepositions or a different verb form is irrelevant. These verses can be completely ignored from the analysis.

That leaves with us with real objects. What we should look at is how does DRB behave when it is used with a real object directly (CAT-2) and with a preposition (CAT-3).

Quote
Since you have now created 3 categories you will have to tell us which category each verse falls into so we can test the consistency of your view.

I would have thought it's pretty obvious what the categories are based on the definitions. Abstract objects = CAT-1,
Real objects = CAT-2 & Prepositions = CAT -3.

The categories are descriptive of the Arabic text not prescriptive of my view. It's like asking me to list all even numbers after I tell you an even number is a number that is divisible by 2. We should both have the same list numbers. Anyway, I've done as you asked. Please do check and confirm. We should be in agreement as it's a just sorting exercise.

Your list contains Noun forms of DRB. These shouldn't really be in the list but I have left them in for completeness.

1) DRB fee al ard = journey in the land/earth CAT-3
[2:273, 3:156, 4:101, 5:106, 73:20]

2) DRB fee sabeeli Allahi = journey in God's way/path CAT-3
[4:94]

3) DRB + mathal = propound/cite an example/similitude/parable CAT-1
[2:26, 13:17, 14:24, 14:25, 14:45, 16:74, 16:75, 16:76, 16:112, 17:48, 18:32, 18:45, 22:73, 24:35, 25:9, 25:39, 29:43, 30:28, 30:58, 36:13, 36:78, 39:27, 39:29, 43:17, 43:57, 43:58, 47:3, 59:21, 66:10, 66:11]

4) kathalika yadribu Allahu al haqqa wa al batila = in this way God propounds/cites the truth and the falsehood
[13:17] CAT-1

5) Fa darabna AAala athanihim fee al kahfi sineena AAadadan = So We sealed/covered on/over their ears in the cave some years CAT-3
[18:11]

6) Walaw tara ith yatawaffa allatheena kafaroo almala-ikatu yadriboona wujoohahum wa adbarahum wa thooqoo AAathaba al hareeqi CAT-2
= And if you could but see when the angels/controllers* are taking (unto themselves, i.e. at death) those who reject striking their faces/fronts and backs and (say) "taste the penalty of the fire."
[8:50]

Fakayfa itha tawaffathumu almalaikatu yadriboona wujoohahum wa adbarahum
= So/then how (will it be) when the angels/controllers* take them (unto themselves, i.e. in death) striking their faces/fronts and their backs?
[47:27]

7) wal yadribna bi khumurihinna AAala juyoobihinna = and let them draw/cast with their covers over/on their chests CAT-3
[24:31]

8) wala yadribna bi-arjulihinna = and let them not strike/stamp/move with their feet CAT-3
[24:31]

9) Afanadribu AAankumu al ththikra = Should We withdraw from you the reminder CAT-1
[43:5]

10) fa duriba baynahum bi soorin = then put forth between them with a wall CAT-3
[57:13]

11) fa idrib lahum tareeqan fee al bahri yabasan = then indicate for them a dry path in the sea CAT-3
[20:77]

12) idrib bi AAasaka al bahra fa infalaqa = strike with your staff the sea, then it split/separated CAT-2
[26:63]

idrib bi AAasaka al hajara fa infajarat min hu = strike with your staff the rock, then vented from it (twelve springs)
[2:60]

idrib bi AAasaka al hajara fa inbajasat min hu = strike with your staff the rock, then gushed from it (twelve springs)
[7:160]

13) idriboohu bi baAAdiha = cite /point out him with some of it (the murder) CAT-2
[2:73]

14) Wa khuth bi yadika dighthan fa idribbihi wala tahnath = And take with your hand a bundle, then strike with it, and do not break your oath CAT-2
[38:44]

15) duribat + AAalayhimu = pitched upon them CAT-1
[2:61, 3:112, 3:112]


16) fa idriboo fawqa al-aAAnaqi wa idriboo minhum kulla bananin = so strike above/over the necks, and strike from them every/each finger/extremity. CAT-2
[8:12]

17) fa darba al rriqabi hattaitha athkhantumoohum = so strike the necks until when you have overcome them CAT-2
[47:4]

18) Fa ragha AAalayhim darban bi al yameeni = then he turned upon them striking with the right hand CAT-2
[37:93]


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burhan

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Re: quran434.com
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2019, 02:53:45 PM »
Wakas do you need more time or are you no longer interested in discussing this?
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Wakas

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Re: quran434.com
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2019, 09:46:56 AM »
I was unusually busy recently, and I had to re-read your post several times due to your categorisation. You will note the differences between your original post and your latest position, i.e.

before
2 categories
DRB+object = hit

latest
3 categories
DRB+object = physical contact

Just pointing this out in case readers missed it. So, let's get to the crux of the matter, and that is your category 2:

Quote
1) DRB + abstract object, directly or indirectly => Always non-physical

2) DRB + real object directly =>  meaning is always physical contact.
 
3) DRB + real object indirectly =>  Prepositions or context determine the meaning but it's usually non-physical.

Using Quran434.com list, you classified the following as Cat2:

6) DRB+object

12) DRB+preposition+object

16) DRB+preposition+object

17) DRB+object

18) DRB+preposition+(object)


Can you clarify why some of the above are not Cat3?

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

burhan

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Re: quran434.com
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2019, 01:59:49 PM »
I was unusually busy recently, and I had to re-read your post several times due to your categorisation. You will note the differences between your original post and your latest position, i.e.

I appreciate your time. Yes it's good that you summarize as we go along. I don't know if you were implying a difference between hit and physical contact. It's the same in my mind. We can use literal and non-literal if you want.

John was hitting Katie (physical contact, literalusage of hit)
John was hitting on Katie (flirting, a non-literal usage of hit)

We can clarify this point later as I need to address your question first before we can move to meanings.

I think there are two questions here that you are asking.

Why I think those verses are in Cat-2?
Why those verses mean physical hit/literal?

So the categorization has nothing to do with what I think verse means. Cat-2 is simply all those verses where the DRB takes it's object (Maf'ool bihi) directly without a corresponding object preposition.  If I see an object preposition then that verse is Cat-3. The categorization is simply identifying the sentence structure - I'm not implying any meaning at this point. I will give my rationale for why I think all Cat-2 verses are literal, but it's important we understand each other on the sentence structure.
 
So by definition 6 and 17 are Cat-2 as you agree there is no preposition.

Point 12, 16, 18 also don?t' have an object preposition.


Point 12 - Verse 26:63



There is no preposition with "the sea".  "the sea" is the Maf?ool bihi - the thing to which DRB is done.
If you are thinking "with your staff" is a preposition that's wrong as well.  "with your staff" is not the Maf?ool bihi of the verb DRB.
If the phrase was "Min al bahra" from the sea, then yes "Min" would be a preposition.


Point 16 - Verse 8:12



This is in two parts. The first part the object "the necks" has no preposition. The second part does have a preposition "from them" for the object "every fingertip". So the first part is Cat-2 and the second part is Cat-3.


Point 18 - Verse 37:93



Here we have the noun form.  The preposition "upon"  in "upon them" goes with the verb "Then he turned". 
There is no object preposition connecting Darban to it's Maf'ool bihi.
 
I hope we can now have agreement on the categorization. You might need to check all my Cat-3 again to make sure that there is definitely a preposition.
 
I think you already agree with Cat-1.










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Wakas

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Re: quran434.com
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2019, 03:54:14 PM »
Thanks for clarifying your categorisation. Which category for 43:57?
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

burhan

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Re: quran434.com
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2019, 02:49:47 AM »
Thanks for clarifying your categorisation. Which category for 43:57?

Same, Cat-1. The maf'ool bihi is the example of Son-of-Mary - that's an abstract thing.

For example if I say "I like Wakas's ideas." that doesn't mean I like you it means I like your ideas.

Note it's in the passive voice, so there is no doer of DRB. So it can't mean something silly like Son-of-Mary hit the example etc.

The translation (in passive voice) here would be: When the Son-of-Mary example was cited, your people laughed about it.

Also I'd like to correct Point 8 ) to CAT-2 as there is no preposition or rather there is no object.

Quote
8 ) wala yadribna bi-arjulihinna = and let them not strike/stamp/move with their feet CAT-3
[24:31]

It's intransitive so no object is required. I would accept your objection as it doesn't fit in any category.   







 
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Wakas

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Re: quran434.com
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2019, 05:56:08 AM »
Re: 43:57
I asked those more knowledgeable of Arabic than I when I wrote my article about this verse and this is what they said which I wrote on Quran434.com

Quote
In 43:57 Jesus is the second object of the verb DuRiBa, and in this verse it is in the perfect passive form meaning the object received the action expressed in the verb, i.e. Jesus received DRB, i.e. Jesus was put/shown forth / cited/indicated (as an example) by those disputing. In 43:57 "mathala" could be considered an adverbial accusative that names or modifies the action of the verb. So the type of "darab" of the object "Jesus" is that of an "example".

Also, I'm not convinced it would go into the abstract category but I guess that could be disputed.

Quote from: burhan
Also I'd like to correct Point 8 ) to CAT-2 as there is no preposition or rather there is no object.

That would make it consistent with your categorisation of (14) 38:44. However, I agree it doesn't quite fit into any category.

#####

So the following are your Cat2 (in addition to 4:34):

6), 12), 13), 16) 1st part, 17), 18)

8 ), 14) = Cat2 / not any category

Quote from: burhan
Why those verses mean physical hit/literal?

I assume you have read my analysis of the above verses and the various issues surrounding them, so yes now we can move onto why you think they mean physical hit (bearing in mind the objections I've raised on Quran434.com).

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

burhan

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Re: quran434.com
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2019, 08:54:46 AM »
ok great. So to summarize we agree

CAT-1
As above but 43:57 is disputed.
We agree the meaning in those by definition is non-literal, as the object of DRB is abstract.

CAT-2
6), 8 )* 12), 13), 14)* 16) 1st part, 17), 18)

*or no category

We agree no object preposition is present but meaning not decided.

CAT-3, as above
We agree all those verses have an object preposition and the meaning is non-literal.

Obviously we can both mistakes, so these can be corrected or disputed with good will.




I have read your views on Cat-2. I found them very subjective and in some places you didn't seem to be convinced yourself.

Can I ask you score/grade each point in Cat-2 from 0 to 9. Where 0=100% literal  9=100% non-literal. Don't make them all 9s :) 

What I will do then is to create a separate thread for each point, starting with the least contentious.

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Wakas

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Re: quran434.com
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2019, 03:31:20 AM »
When I imply agreement with your categorisation I don't mean that's how I think they should be categorised. I am just agreeing with your categorisation (based on your own criteria). Just clarifying.

CAT-3, as above
We agree all those verses have an object preposition and the meaning is non-literal.

I do not necessarily agree. Previously you said this about Cat3 "Prepositions or context determine the meaning but it's usually non-physical." But I dont think we need to get into that right now and we should focus on your Cat2.

Quote from: burhan
I have read your views on Cat-2. I found them very subjective and in some places you didn't seem to be convinced yourself.

It's fairly rare to be able to prove a word in Quran can only mean one thing and nothing else.

Quote
Can I ask you score/grade each point in Cat-2 from 0 to 9. Where 0=100% literal  9=100% non-literal. Don't make them all 9s :) 
What I will do then is to create a separate thread for each point, starting with the least contentious.

I dont think grading is helpful, and we should definitely keep the discussion in one thread. I think what will be more helpful is if we take one at a time and I can provide a brief summary of the strongest points which go against the literal/physical understanding. You can then respond.

e.g.
6) [8:50], [47:27]

If the object is real and the hitting is literal/physical (i.e. real) then this means it would be measurable/observable in some way but it isn't. Thus, such an understanding results in an empirical/logical fail.

There is no supporting evidence in Quran that I'm aware of that supports physical hitting in these verses and all the evidence in Quran that I'm aware of goes against such an understanding.


Reference
http://www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part1
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

burhan

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Re: quran434.com
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2019, 05:11:48 AM »
With the grading I was trying to establish a baseline. I don't want to strawman your arguments so it's important that I understand exactly what you are trying to say in your article.

The first question I have is what is the criteria for you to accept that DRB is being used literally? What does your ideal literal sentence look like?

In your article you say;
Quote
It has been shown that there is not one clear occurrence in The Quran in which "beat" is the meaning of DRB.

which made me think that, for you, there is no criteria where DRB can have a literal meaning. In-fact you question the literal meaning of DRB being hit/strike, you say it's "to put/show forth". So the non-literal meaning be would hit/strike.

But then you say;
Quote
The only verses in which the preposition "bi" is used with DRB are 24:31, 57:13, 26:63,
2:60, 7:160, 2:73, 38:44, 37:93, and in all these occurrences the meaning is a
literal/physical usage:

which made me think, okay, there is a criteria, but it contradicts what you said earlier. I hope you can see my issue here.

If there isn't a criteria i.e. for you DRB never ever means hit/strike then discussing it's usage in the Quran is pointless. We'd then have to get into a discussion of how DRB was used and understood in pre-islamic texts and why today it's literal meaning is or isn't hit/strike.

So to summarize;

  • Is the literal meaning of DRB hit/strike as defined in the first paragraph of http://lexicon.quranic-research.net/data/15_D/028_Drb.html
  • If yes, then what is the criteria for DRB to convey a literal meaning in sentence. Please give examples of such sentences (they don't have to be Quranic verses)
  • If no i.e. the literal meaning of DRB was never hit/strike and dictionaries are incorrect, then please provide your evidence of this change in etymology.

I hope these discussions aren't annoying and that I'm bring something of value.


 



 











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