Author Topic: quran434.com  (Read 6848 times)

imrankhawaja

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 4336
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: quran434.com
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2019, 08:29:21 AM »
With regards to wife beating, I think burhan has a point, at least to an extent. However we look at this verse, wife beating just at least seem a probable interpretation as "separation" or "citing". This alone is problematic due to its implication on the Qur'an as a detailed, unambiguous book.

Now, consider a Muslim in Baghdad in the 10th century where wife beating was norm - provided no injury is caused, how likely is this Muslim to interpret "wa dhribuhunna" as "separate or cite"?

The major impetus to question the wife beating interpretation is contemporary social norm. We've socially evolved to see wife beating as domestic abuse whether it is done with a tooth pick or chew stick and so are driven to re-interpret the verse.

The early Muslims did not have such impetus. This again is problematic as its implies that cultural and generational differences significantly impact interpretation. Which brings us to very crucial questions;

Is an objective reading of the Qur'an possible? Isn't our approach to the Qur'an too one dimensional and bugged with confirmation bias?

IMMORALITY always considered as immorality regardless of time/space/tradition.

beating someone in any case is not a solution at all. (apart from self defence)

whatever those stupids were doing in 10th century was wrong and still wrong.
same like so called stupids of isis doing there atm.

We made bullshit traditions for our own advantage at different eras and we changed those traditions when we need a change.

God is not human his laws works like errorless/immaculate.

now we have a list of beating.

parents (beat) their kids
brothes beat their sisters
uncles beats their nephews
teacher beats their students
teacher of Quran(molvee) beat their learners
.

i didnt add husband in it due ro a reason.

now in this list what is very very common in muslim asian countries bring more packages of beating here we have another list.

police beat a person upon investigation
police beat a person before investigation.
police beat all those people who lives/resides with criminal.
police beat people like its a GOOD deed  :rotfl: 

if u compare that police with the police of uk u feel pity for those who r getting served by those corrupt police officers.


OLDER advantage

whoever is elder by age already got a license of beating someone under his age
(family) people give permission to elders ( freaking hell).

beating by the caretakers of fruit and veg

people who are the so called owners of fruits gardens

kids when try to eat the blessing of God (fruits) they mostly get caught and now trial started for these poor kids lol.

BEATING how and why ?
and then they give the examples of beating by God. they said what if we beat someone as a tradition God does same to immoral people. and God have us permission to beat.

and hence in wars do beat the shit out of enemies rape their womens, steal their wealth, burn down houses. when u ask why u doing this?

they said becoz our God is doing same things what if we do it?

wordly kings forcefully say u to bow down and sujood physically if not then beat them with hunter? why u doing this ?

becoz God is doing same thing of someone dnt prostrate him he will cast him to hellfire and they said u r lucky we are not rhrowing you to fire just beating u lightly lol.

questions is how long this BEAT stupidity will leave impression on people what cause the victims  to become hunter one day most of the cases serial killer/rapist is effected by beating of SOMEONE in their childhood.

THE most hateful beating is step father beats to the kids out of jealousy.

 
 

good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 5635
  • Karma +7/-2
Re: quran434.com
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2019, 08:37:55 AM »
Peace All.
 What is a Muslim to GOD according to Qoran?

If we want to really follow Qoran, then that is the basis on which to start. i.e What does GOD really wants us to do /be like/give an example of/follow/understand from instructions....

So what are the traits of a true believer?
It is only after we answer these basic questions -About how to be/behave as a human according to the one who created us-
that we can really move forward with Qoran.

GOD talks to all sorts of people in Qoran- Ya Ayuha? believer, hypocrite, disbeliever, waverer, ...etc-.

So it depends who we are and what we strive to be ? Qoran caters for all ,it can even be ignored all together .It is there to be taken by anyone who wants to make of it as they please or leave it be.

So I will rephrase my question of 4:34 as follows:
What should a true believer in Qoran take from this verse? To beat the wife? Really?

Then we should go through the traits of what a believer is and see, it will contradicts it for sure.
First the verse is giving options ? Should a true believer go beyond the second option?

For me the verse that settles most things is this one:
 "Ittabihu Ahsana Ma Unzila Ilaikum Min Rabbikum"---Follow the BEST PATH instructed/revealed to you by your Lord-
So what is the best option in the verse? To beat the wife?
Of course some will say "But Qoran says beat them", Why does Qoran even mention "DRB" knowing that some people will take it as "beat the wife"?
Exactly my point, which people are we talking about? The true believer of Qoran?

...And so on about many "hot potato" issues that people are not comfortable with in Qoran.
 What ever it may mean ,it should not come to it if the verse options are followed with sincerity. Try it in real life and see for yourself. As a true believer, you may even prevent the situation arising in 4:34 and there is no need for any of it!!!

Now that does not mean we should ignore the interpretation of the word "drb", by allmeans find out.
 But if I can make sure it should not apply to me by "choosing the best option" and trying my best to make it work with all concerned it helps.
Anyway, Qoran caters for all.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

Neptin

  • Truth Seeker
  • ***
  • Posts: 691
  • Karma +2/-1
Re: quran434.com
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2019, 11:34:52 AM »
IMMORALITY always considered as immorality regardless of time/space/tradition.

beating someone in any case is not a solution at all. (apart from self defence)

whatever those stupids were doing in 10th century was wrong and still wrong.
same like so called stupids of isis doing there atm.

We made bullshit traditions for our own advantage at different eras and we changed those traditions when we need a change.

God is not human his laws works like errorless/immaculate.

now we have a list of beating.

parents (beat) their kids
brothes beat their sisters
uncles beats their nephews
teacher beats their students
teacher of Quran(molvee) beat their learners
.

i didnt add husband in it due ro a reason.

now in this list what is very very common in muslim asian countries bring more packages of beating here we have another list.

police beat a person upon investigation
police beat a person before investigation.
police beat all those people who lives/resides with criminal.
police beat people like its a GOOD deed  :rotfl: 

if u compare that police with the police of uk u feel pity for those who r getting served by those corrupt police officers.


OLDER advantage

whoever is elder by age already got a license of beating someone under his age
(family) people give permission to elders ( freaking hell).

beating by the caretakers of fruit and veg

people who are the so called owners of fruits gardens

kids when try to eat the blessing of God (fruits) they mostly get caught and now trial started for these poor kids lol.

BEATING how and why ?
and then they give the examples of beating by God. they said what if we beat someone as a tradition God does same to immoral people. and God have us permission to beat.

and hence in wars do beat the shit out of enemies rape their womens, steal their wealth, burn down houses. when u ask why u doing this?

they said becoz our God is doing same things what if we do it?

wordly kings forcefully say u to bow down and sujood physically if not then beat them with hunter? why u doing this ?

becoz God is doing same thing of someone dnt prostrate him he will cast him to hellfire and they said u r lucky we are not rhrowing you to fire just beating u lightly lol.

questions is how long this BEAT stupidity will leave impression on people what cause the victims  to become hunter one day most of the cases serial killer/rapist is effected by beating of SOMEONE in their childhood.

THE most hateful beating is step father beats to the kids out of jealousy.

Wow. This is really funny. I love how you lighten the mood with humor. I still recall your comedic row with jkhan and kaltun in my previous thread on Geocentricity and Flat earth.

Any way, I think you forget something in all your condemnation of wife beating as immoral regardless of time and place.

That is, immorality is unfortunately not fully an absolute term. There are people till date that see no immorality in wife beating. I mean educated and privileged people that speak of civility and ethics. Take Sam Gerrans a Muslim convert and Qur'an translator as example.

Sam Gerrans absolutely reject hadith, yet he insist on translating 4:34 as wife beating. He justifies this on his YouTube channel and go so far to mention that some women admit a desire for a man that can hit them. If women could admit such a thing, Sam reasoned, then perhaps that explains it is not immoral & thus God could endorse it.

Also, remember Rashad Khalifa? He translated the popular phrase as wife beating.

What do you think?
Reclaiming Islam from extremism;
Flames Of Truth

centi50

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 270
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: quran434.com
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2019, 12:21:48 PM »
Salam to be all,

I don't see how literally beating the wife will make things better, infact it will be much worse.

In Yemen for example it's considered as really bad thing to beat any woman let alone your wife, and if you husband did beat your wife and her family knows you be taken to task like they will take their daughter and for you6to bring her back they will fine you with you to bring a set of gold or some will want you to bring a whole cow so you can take back your wife.

So you see actually beating a woman becomes more of a problem than solution

God bless you all

Neptin

  • Truth Seeker
  • ***
  • Posts: 691
  • Karma +2/-1
Re: quran434.com
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2019, 12:27:58 PM »
Peace All.
 What is a Muslim to GOD according to Qoran?

If we want to really follow Qoran, then that is the basis on which to start. i.e What does GOD really wants us to do /be like/give an example of/follow/understand from instructions....

So what are the traits of a true believer?
It is only after we answer these basic questions -About how to be/behave as a human according to the one who created us-
that we can really move forward with Qoran.

I thought the Qur'an suppose to answer these questions. The Qur'an invites people to it without any prerequisite.

Quote
GOD talks to all sorts of people in Qoran- Ya Ayuha? believer, hypocrite, disbeliever, waverer, ...etc-.

So it depends who we are and what we strive to be ? Qoran caters for all ,it can even be ignored all together .It is there to be taken by anyone who wants to make of it as they please or leave it be.

So I will rephrase my question of 4:34 as follows:
What should a true believer in Qoran take from this verse? To beat the wife? Really?

Then we should go through the traits of what a believer is and see, it will contradicts it for sure.
First the verse is giving options ? Should a true believer go beyond the second option?

Why not? If it is ordained, a true believer could as well apply it after step 1 and 2.  fails. Why would Qur'an give the believers an option for an undesirable act?

Quote
For me the verse that settles most things is this one:
 "Ittabihu Ahsana Ma Unzila Ilaikum Min Rabbikum"---Follow the BEST PATH instructed/revealed to you by your Lord-
So what is the best option in the verse? To beat the wife?
Of course some will say "But Qoran says beat them", Why does Qoran even mention "DRB" knowing that some people will take it as "beat the wife"?
Exactly my point, which people are we talking about? The true believer of Qoran?

Good logic here but it is not without weakness. Some of those people who take it as "beat the wife" really could be true believers. This is because as I've pointed out peoples' interpretation of the scriptures is heavily influenced by their culture and time. It may have nothing to do with being a true believer. Every Muslim sees themselves as true believers, even ISIS.

Quote
...And so on about many "hot potato" issues that people are not comfortable with in Qoran.
 What ever it may mean ,it should not come to it if the verse options are followed with sincerity. Try it in real life and see for yourself. As a true believer, you may even prevent the situation arising in 4:34 and there is no need for any of it!!!

It all boils down to individual. For some couple, it never get as far as hitting the wife. But for others it does. I know of a religious Muslim man, Imam and scholar who hit his wife.

Quote
Now that does not mean we should ignore the interpretation of the word "drb", by allmeans find out.
 But if I can make sure it should not apply to me by "choosing the best option" and trying my best to make it work with all concerned it helps.
Anyway, Qoran caters for all.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Wow, it will be that easy for you? What about the women out there that have been victim of application of this verse?

 Peace..
Reclaiming Islam from extremism;
Flames Of Truth

good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 5635
  • Karma +7/-2
Re: quran434.com
« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2019, 03:58:38 AM »
Peace Neptin.

You want some specific answers that apply to all?
Fine, then it means "beat the wife" if it makes some happy . Regardless of what others give as meaning, some will not budge  and they will justify it to "beat the wife" or ridicule Qoran.
So does that mean it is GOD s fault for putting words that need pondering to bring people s character/convictions to the open?

Or what do you mean by, quote:

Wow, it will be that easy for you? What about the women out there that have been victim of application of this verse?

It is Qoran s fault for having the word "DRB" in it?
Or is it the person  that is making the decision to "hit the wife"  fault?
Either way one can make what they want from multimeaning words of Qoran. And you know they are plenty of them.

Whoever wants to beat his wife, it is nothing to do with me, or if you ponder Qoran properly,nothing to do with Qoran either.

If others see problems with Qoran, I do not. I only see solutions.
In fact I see problems with them.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 5635
  • Karma +7/-2
Re: quran434.com
« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2019, 04:15:09 AM »
Peace Neptin.
 I put this quote of yours in a separate post  if you do not mind:

"I thought the Qur'an suppose to answer these questions. The Qur'an invites people to it without any prerequisite".

 Does it not? Qoran indeed answers them questions for me. You are welcome to study it brother and find out if it does for you.
 Or is your statement ironic?
Apologies , but the statement required the blunt answer above

GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

burhan

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 330
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: quran434.com
« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2019, 07:22:34 AM »
peace burhan,

Thank you for your reply.

you are welcome.

Quote
1) I never once used the word "contradiction" in my analysis of these verses.

I know :) just wanted to get it on record.

Quote

52:45-47 it seems "duna" commonly means "other than":
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=dwn#(52:47:5)

79:1 says nothing about malaika nor souls

40:46 doesn't say before, and likely refers to the greatest punishment they will get.

71:25 is probably the best counter-example you have, although some take it as, quote Asad: "Lit., "and were made to enter the fire" - the past tense indicating the inevitability of the suffering yet to come (Zamakhshari).".

Those are fair criticisms.

Quote
His main objection coincides with mine.

Yes I get that part, but I don't understand your translation.


Quote
Is your view that after slaughtering the cow, a murder occurred in close proximity to the dead cow and those disputing about it were doing so beside the dead cow and murdered corpse?

Do you know what the name of the chapter is?

Obviously, It's not the same cow. Just as it's not the same cow in 2:54. It's not even the same set of people. That is the whole point of Idh. It connects stories that are about Moses, his people, and their relationship to cows separated by time.

The chapter is called the The Cow.

2:54 A calf is take for worship
2:67 A cow is commanded to be slaughtered.
2:73 Part of A sacrificed cow is used to identify the murderers.

Not the same cow.

Is this your translation of the two words idribuhu bibadiha?

Quote
"cite, point out, assign, indicate..... him with some of it (the murder)"

Firstly, the it possessive pronoun is a feminine it/her in Arabic. Are you saying murder (qatal) is feminine? It's not, it's masculine.

Second, so God asked everybody to point out the murderer to expose the murderer. They were doing that already. How did God add value to the process?

There is a you-plural subject pronoun but a it-singular/him object pronoun on idrib. The object of DRB is a single person or thing.

Even your English translation doesn't convey the message that the blame is to be shared.
It reads as, "assign a single person with some of the murder."
 
I can see your predicament. You are hamstrung by the Arabic and you simply can't produce the English translation without adding new words to the Arabic. By all means use brackets to clarify the subject/object - you still won't be able to produce a translation, without resorting to your tafsir.
 
you strike him (corpse) with some of it (part of a cow) is a perfectly clear translation that doesn't require paragraphs upon paragraphs to explain it.

Also the next part about resurrection fits perfectly where as you have to then twist it's meaning too.

This whole episode is supposed to be a miracle. A victim rises from the dead to accuse his murderers.

Your version is just mundane.

I don't want to get off-topic but the Quranic text we are using could be wrong. We know many versions of the text exist with not just vowel difference but consonants, gender and order differences. Sometimes a different word is used. E.g Kasir instead of Kabir in the alcohol verse. This kind of can't-see-the-wood-for-the-trees analysis makes us both look silly.






Peace.

Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 11345
  • Karma +14/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: quran434.com
« Reply #48 on: February 18, 2019, 09:22:04 AM »

Is this your translation of the two words idribuhu bibadiha?

It's not just two words, literally it says: DRB him/it with some (of) her/it. In my translation for DRB I gave several options which have similar meanings: "cite, point out, assign, indicate...".

Quote
Are you saying murder (qatal) is feminine? It's not, it's masculine.

No, I simply used what The Quran is using as the reference, which I discuss (i.e. fiha). Re-read what I wrote and see usage of terms in 5:32.

Quote
Second, so God asked everybody to point out the murderer to expose the murderer. They were doing that already. How did God add value to the process?

It seems you either dont understand what the verse is saying or my analysis of the verse. I make it perfectly clear what is going on:

Quote
When we re-read the context of 2:72-73, it becomes obvious the perpetrators were accusing each other (i.e. pointing the finger at each other, so to speak) to conceal the truth that they did it, so God was to bring forth what they were concealing: so We said "point out him with some of it (the murder)". The only ones doing the pointing/accusing were the guilty. Thus, whomever of them (i.e. of the ones accused) was pointed out by the others also accused was assigned some part/responsibility of the murder. In this way, they could not escape what they had done, and indeed, God exposed them and brought out what they were concealing. The end result was that they took collective responsibility, each of him a part. Sharing of a sin/crime if a group were responsible is mentioned elsewhere in The Quran, e.g. 24:11.

Quote
I can see your predicament. You are hamstrung by the Arabic and you simply can't produce the English translation without adding new words to the Arabic.

My translation is simple and easy. The brackets are there to help the English reader unfamiliar with what the Arabic is conveying:

"cite him (i.e. each individual) with some of it (the murder, which they were disputing in)"

Quote
Your version is just mundane.

LOL. You cant even admit it makes perfect sense and is what every civilised society does these days, i.e. assigns part of the crime/blame to each individual involved in that crime. I guess to you it is just one big coincidence it fits.

Quote
Also the next part about resurrection fits perfectly where as you have to then twist it's meaning too.

No twisting. You probably didn't bother to read the references I gave.

Quote
This whole episode is supposed to be a miracle.

"miracle" is not mentioned, that is your interpretation.

Quote
I don't want to get off-topic but the Quranic text we are using could be wrong.

Finally we get to your achilles heel. When I asked you for a Qurqanic example for what you are claiming in 2:73 you didn't provide any and now you say the above. So, let's be clear, for your interpretation to work the Quran text we have must be wrong.

Interesting. 
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Neptin

  • Truth Seeker
  • ***
  • Posts: 691
  • Karma +2/-1
Re: quran434.com
« Reply #49 on: February 18, 2019, 11:47:39 AM »
Peace Neptin.

You want some specific answers that apply to all?
Fine, then it means "beat the wife" if it makes some happy . Regardless of what others give as meaning, some will not budge  and they will justify it to "beat the wife" or ridicule Qoran.
So does that mean it is GOD s fault for putting words that need pondering to bring people s character/convictions to the open?

Sure Qur'an 4:34 does brings out motives and character of the reader. I do not dispute.

My point, and the point you're missing is that Qur'an 4:34 also does prove that an objective reading of the Qur'an is near impossible and that the interpretation of the text is deeply influenced by the reader's culture and generation.

Your assumption that any fair minded Muslim reader of the Qur'an will not support wife beating undermine the influence of the prevailing culture and norm on the Muslims' interpretation of Quran.

Quote
Or what do you mean by, quote:

Wow, it will be that easy for you? What about the women out there that have been victim of application of this verse?

OK. What I mean is that - Will rejecting the wife beating translation and moving on with your life and doing your own path with regards to your wife be easy? Especially knowing fully well that Muslims out there persist with the wife beating translation and so there are plenty of wives who have been beaten in the name of this verse.
Reclaiming Islam from extremism;
Flames Of Truth