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Qur'an Universe Model Is Geocentric

Started by Neptin, January 09, 2019, 12:33:39 AM

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imrankhawaja

Peace GUYS,

36:38 And the sun runs to a specific destination, such is the design of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.

instead of RUN if we use FLOW it will give more accurate interpretation by cross checking of quran this FLOW word used more than RUN. anyway both are somehow synonyms.

i just want to share a recent discovery about a NEW mysterious phenomenon called ?DARK FLOW? something interesting to see there is a mysterious flow that attracting everything towards it. after ?dark matter? and ?dark energy? we now have ?DARK FLOW?.

may b verse 36: 38 is hinting towards it.

infact Quran never claimed earth is at REST.

Neptin

Quote from: ibn_aThis could refer to the Solar Apex.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_apex


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Peace.

It could. But the context of the verse is day and night circle and I can't see how solar apex have anything to do with that.

Quote from: Wakas
peace Neptin,

Rather than baseless claims, please prove to us the meanings you chose are the most accurate/evidenced/logical/cross-referenced meanings for the words in question.

Then we can see the credibility of your claims.

Peace.

I have referenced other translations like Pickthall, also see Sahih International on 36:38. As even you can see from the corpus Qur'an page you cited, "Mustaqarr" is used in all other verses of the Qur'an to mean dwelling place, except in 6:67 where the context is not a physical object.

As for qararan, in 27:61, we can debate all we want about this meaning the earth is fixed or not fixed, but don't you find it puzzling that the Qur'an never for once implied the earth is in motion, whereas it reiterates the sun is in motion, supposedly round the center of the milky way galaxy?

Quote from: huruf
Is there a reason why the Qur'an should address all people, of all degrees of instructio, of all ages and learning as if they were all consumate astronomists?

All the nitpicking as to the words used int he Qur'an in order to adress ALL PEOPLE regarding perceivable phenomena to remind them to bear in mind the wondrowsness of all that exists seems to me as whims of spoilt children like the princess who noticed the pea under the mattress.

The Qur'an is no astronomy textbook. It is a guide for  people who want to follow the straight an upward path.

What would be conclusive in proving the Qur'an wrong would be to find an unequivocal assertion that the moon and the sun turn around the earth or that the earth does not turn around anything else and does not move in space.

Thos qaraar and those other things, he earth as qaraar is absolutely irreproachable. Regardless of what it does in th solar system and the constellation, it is absolutely a qaraar for people and all that lives and exists within its atmosphere and on its surface and waters. That is undisputable.

As to the mustaqarr part, please, those who find it wrong, can they come up with a better word to describe what the sun does? Fixed? It is fixed, if it were not fixed then the sun would run one day here another day would go to another constelation just to have some fun, next day she would try something else and would open a track in between the orbits of the planets. That would not be fixed. But what it does, running always the same tract is fixed. Same as when we go to work and work everyday in the same place we take the same transport take the same traject. We take a fixed course.

But, of course, as the great and splendid astronomers we all are, we ant to be addressed by any guide on behaviour for mankind with proper words that ony can understand the astronomers of the XXIth century. Who knows may be for the XXX century it would be old and the concpets and nomenclature may have changed and then the guide for mankind would again be wrong.

We are such a bunch of excellent and allknowing people we deserve nothing but the most scientifically up to date nomenclature in all domains best from God or anybody who attempts to address us and be taken seriously.

Salaam

I'm not here to prove the Qur'an wrong. I'm trying to prove that a Geocentric universe model is what the Qur'an confirms. Is a geocentric universe model wrong and disprove the Qur'an? I really can't say, all I know about the universe is what I read, not what I have witnessed.

Now, as for 'qarara' and 'mustaqqar' of 27:61 and 36:38, I've left my words in reply to to Wakas above.

Quote from: imrankhawaja
Peace GUYS,

36:38 And the sun runs to a specific destination, such is the design of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.

instead of RUN if we use FLOW it will give more accurate interpretation by cross checking of quran this FLOW word used more than RUN. anyway both are somehow synonyms.

i just want to share a recent discovery about a NEW mysterious phenomenon called ?DARK FLOW? something interesting to see there is a mysterious flow that attracting everything towards it. after ?dark matter? and ?dark energy? we now have ?DARK FLOW?.

may b verse 36: 38 is hinting towards it.

infact Quran never claimed earth is at REST.

I agree with what you have written except the part on Dark Flow. Qur'an should be clear to the primary audience, the early Arabs. This idea that Qur'an reveals scientific facts neither discerned, understandable or verifiable by the Arabs until now is problematic. This is why I beg to differ with those who claim Qur'an's mention of solar orbit refers to the its orbit around the center of the milky way galaxy.
Reclaiming Islam from extremism;
[url=http://flamesoftruth.wordpress.com]Flames Of Truth[/url]

huruf

Quote from: Neptin on January 10, 2019, 01:29:13 AM
Peace.

It could. But the context of the verse is day and night circle and I can't see how solar apex have anything to do with that.

Peace.

I have referenced other translations like Pickthall, also see Sahih International on 36:38. As even you can see from the corpus Qur'an page you cited, "Mustaqarr" is used in all other verses of the Qur'an to mean dwelling place, except in 6:67 where the context is not a physical object.

As for qararan, in 27:61, we can debate all we want about this meaning the earth is fixed or not fixed, but don't you find it puzzling that the Qur'an never for once implied the earth is in motion, whereas it reiterates the sun is in motion, supposedly round the center of the milky way galaxy?

I'm not here to prove the Qur'an wrong. I'm trying to prove that a Geocentric universe model is what the Qur'an confirms. Is a geocentric universe model wrong and disprove the Qur'an? I really can't say, all I know about the universe is what I read, not what I have witnessed.

Now, as for 'qarara' and 'mustaqqar' of 27:61 and 36:38, I've left my words in reply to to Wakas above.

I agree with what you have written except the part on Dark Flow. Qur'an should be clear to the primary audience, the early Arabs. This idea that Qur'an reveals scientific facts neither discerned, understandable or verifiable by the Arabs until now is problematic. This is why I beg to differ with those who claim Qur'an's mention of solar orbit refers to the its orbit around the center of the milky way galaxy.

Does the Qur'an say that the earth is stationnary with respect to other bodies? Please quote.


By all means should the Qur'an uphold this or that astronomical view? whY?

Qur'an says what it has to say to people of any time concenring that which they can see and reason by themselves, in the sixth century in the twentieth or in the thousandth.

That is very consistent with the call of the Qur'an to all people to reason by themselves and to judge nd ponder on everything.

Why do you have to adscribe to it any particular "universal" conception on this or that? What is the reason or need for that.
The Qur'an does not present itself in as a textbook for anything, neither for cooking or knitting or horse mounting or anything. Speaks to the people as is.

On the other hand scientific theories on anything change fast, not like human perception which is more or less the same now as 5 thousand years ago. If a certain scientific theory was obviously upheld in any book it would age very quickly and would unsettle the reader conmensurately all the time except for the time when it came out.

On the other hand if it deals with questions inherently important to humans at any time, it does not age.

So hte important point is not to try by all means to extract a scientific opinion from the Qur'an but to understand what it is about. The best that could be asked from it would be that it does not err, and nothing that has bene stated here inthis thread or in other threads or writings that I  know off prove the Qur'an erring. It is not that the Qur'an is geocentric, but rather that it is humancentric, which is logical since it is addressed to humans.

As said, please quote where the Qur'an sates unambiguously that the earth, the planet earth is static.

Salaam

ibn_a

Salaam,


Quote from: Neptin on January 09, 2019, 12:33:39 AM
And the earth according to Qur'an is likely flat. I can see now why some orthodox scholars like Sheikh Abdul-Aziz Baaz never supported the heliocentric model of the universe.

...


Peace Neptin,

This verse is a strong indication for a spherical earth.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/39/5/default.htm

Khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi yukawwiru allayla AAala alnnahari wayukawwiru alnnahara AAala allayli wasakhkhara alshshamsa waalqamara kullun yajree li-ajalin musamman ala huwa alAAazeezu alghaffaru

خَلَقَ السَّمَٰوَٰتِ وَالْأَرْضَ بِالْحَقِّ يُكَوِّرُ الَّيْلَ عَلَى النَّهَارِ وَيُكَوِّرُ النَّهَارَ عَلَى الَّيْلِ وَسَخَّرَ الشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ كُلٌّ يَجْرِي لِأَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى أَلَا هُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْغَفَّٰرُ

Consider the specific word: yukawwir يُكَوِّرُ

كور  Kaf-Waw-Ra (Kaf-Alif-Ra) =
To wind, twist/fold/wrap, he wound round a turban, divested of light, blinded, shall pass away and come to naught
.

http://lisaan.net/%d9%83%d9%88%d8%b1/#fbde06



Quote from: Neptin on January 09, 2019, 11:01:12 AM


Peace. I can't agree with corpus Qur'an. 'qararan' refer to a state of rest, for a physical object. A revolving and rotating object like earth cannot be 'qararan'.
...

The womb of woman is also described as " qararin "

Then We placed him (as) a semen-drop in a resting place firm.

Thumma jaAAalnahu nutfatan fee qararin makeenin

ثُمَّ جَعَلْنَاهُ نُطْفَةً فِي قَرَارٍ مَّكِينٍ


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/23/13/


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/77/21/




Quote from: Neptin on January 10, 2019, 01:29:13 AM
Peace.

It could. But the context of the verse is day and night circle and I can't see how solar apex have anything to do with that.

...

Consider that the Quran used this expression: "limustaqarrin laha  لِمُسْتَقَرٍّ لَّهَا " only for the sun.


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



huruf

Quote from: ibn_a on January 11, 2019, 10:09:03 AM
Salaam,


Peace Neptin,

This verse is a strong indication for a spherical earth.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/39/5/default.htm

Khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi yukawwiru allayla AAala alnnahari wayukawwiru alnnahara AAala allayli wasakhkhara alshshamsa waalqamara kullun yajree li-ajalin musamman ala huwa alAAazeezu alghaffaru

خَلَقَ السَّمَٰوَٰتِ وَالْأَرْضَ بِالْحَقِّ يُكَوِّرُ الَّيْلَ عَلَى النَّهَارِ وَيُكَوِّرُ النَّهَارَ عَلَى الَّيْلِ وَسَخَّرَ الشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ كُلٌّ يَجْرِي لِأَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى أَلَا هُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْغَفَّٰرُ

Consider the specific word: yukawwir يُكَوِّرُ

كور  Kaf-Waw-Ra (Kaf-Alif-Ra) =
To wind, twist/fold/wrap, he wound round a turban, divested of light, blinded, shall pass away and come to naught
.

http://lisaan.net/%d9%83%d9%88%d8%b1/#fbde06



The womb of woman is also described as " qararin "

Then We placed him (as) a semen-drop in a resting place firm.

Thumma jaAAalnahu nutfatan fee qararin makeenin

ثُمَّ جَعَلْنَاهُ نُطْفَةً فِي قَرَارٍ مَّكِينٍ


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/23/13/


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/77/21/




Consider that the Quran used this expression: "limustaqarrin laha  لِمُسْتَقَرٍّ لَّهَا " only for the sun.


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Sound post, very much to the point.

Salaam

kaltun

Slm ibn_a

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/39/5/default.htm
He created the heavens and the earth in [the] truth. He wraps the night over the day and wraps the day over the night. And He subjected the sun and the moon, each running for a term specified. Unquestionably, He (is) the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving.

does this verse talking about the earth or sun and the moon ( day and night wraps each other)  ??

please  can you give me explanation of this verses?

7:23-24
(Allah) said, "Get down some of you to some others (as) enemy. And for you in the earth (is) a dwelling place and livelihood for a time."
He said, "In it you will live and in it you will die and from it you will be brought forth."


May Allah guide us to the straight path

Neptin

Peace.

I'm kind of surprise my findings have not been well received, where did the flat earth proponents in the forum go?

The problem I see is people here believe in heliocentric universe, even though they never verified it. They then decide to justify heliocentricity with Quran. How do we know mainstream science is correct?

Please see the link below. A case can be made for geocentricity.
geocentrism.com/

See, this has nothing to do accuracy of Quranic statements. I think we should try minimize the influence of external ideas on our interpretation of Qur'an. We should try put ourself in position of the 7th century Arabs when we interpret Qur'an.

Quote from: ibn_a on January 11, 2019, 10:09:03 AM
Salaam,


Peace Neptin,

This verse is a strong indication for a spherical earth.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/39/5/default.htm

Khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi yukawwiru allayla AAala alnnahari wayukawwiru alnnahara AAala allayli wasakhkhara alshshamsa waalqamara kullun yajree li-ajalin musamman ala huwa alAAazeezu alghaffaru

خَلَقَ السَّمَٰوَٰتِ وَالْأَرْضَ بِالْحَقِّ يُكَوِّرُ الَّيْلَ عَلَى النَّهَارِ وَيُكَوِّرُ النَّهَارَ عَلَى الَّيْلِ وَسَخَّرَ الشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ كُلٌّ يَجْرِي لِأَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى أَلَا هُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْغَفَّٰرُ

Consider the specific word: yukawwir يُكَوِّرُ

كور  Kaf-Waw-Ra (Kaf-Alif-Ra) =
To wind, twist/fold/wrap, he wound round a turban, divested of light, blinded, shall pass away and come to naught
.

http://lisaan.net/%d9%83%d9%88%d8%b1/#fbde06



The womb of woman is also described as " qararin "

Then We placed him (as) a semen-drop in a resting place firm.

Thumma jaAAalnahu nutfatan fee qararin makeenin

ثُمَّ جَعَلْنَاهُ نُطْفَةً فِي قَرَارٍ مَّكِينٍ


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/23/13/


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/77/21/




Consider that the Quran used this expression: "limustaqarrin laha  لِمُسْتَقَرٍّ لَّهَا " only for the sun.


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Thanks. I'm looking into your exposition.
Reclaiming Islam from extremism;
[url=http://flamesoftruth.wordpress.com]Flames Of Truth[/url]

huruf

Quote from: Neptin on January 11, 2019, 12:34:22 PM
Peace.


See, this has nothing to do accuracy of Quranic statements. I think we should try minimize the influence of external ideas on our interpretation of Qur'an. We should try put ourself in position of the 7th century Arabs when we interpret Qur'an.



I did say this:

Quote
By all means should the Qur'an uphold this or that astronomical view? whY?

Qur'an says what it has to say to people of any time concenring that which they can see and reason by themselves, in the sixth century in the twentieth or in the thousandth.

That is very consistent with the call of the Qur'an to all people to reason by themselves and to judge nd ponder on everything.

Why do you have to adscribe to it any particular "universal" conception on this or that? What is the reason or need for that.
The Qur'an does not present itself in as a textbook for anything, neither for cooking or knitting or horse mounting or anything. Speaks to the people as is.

On the other hand scientific theories on anything change fast, not like human perception which is more or less the same now as 5 thousand years ago. If a certain scientific theory was obviously upheld in any book it would age very quickly and would unsettle the reader conmensurately all the time except for the time when it came out.


Also I vehemently reject that we should set us back into the 7th century Arabia. That is impossible, for us, for those before us except for the people themselves who lived hten and there. Simply I consider it nonsense. We do not have the slightest idea of what it was like or what it felt like. We have been injected we a lot of imagination of people who pretend to know anything about that. The fact is that the Qur'an does not, I repeat DOES NOT, set you back or forth to any particular time. Why does it avoid dates consistently, why does it avoid ethnic denominations consistently, why does it avoid places denominations consistently?

Because it does not want to bind the consumer of the Qur'an to any particular time or place or atmosphere. It gives plenty of human interaction and analysis so that as many aspects of human psychology and behaviour are given, but there is no time, no place, no etnia.

Interpetations, tafsirs and translations do a lot to undo what the Qur'an does, but the Qur'an is consistent, clever, incredibly clever... but we refuse to accept that and want at any price that it fits our own conceptions of what it should be. Like wantng it to belong to the 7th century, when we do not have any blooming idea of the seventh century not even of any century we have not been in. And since we do not know, we relie on those who pretend to know, although they do not know, or simply guess.

One thing about heliocentric: only up to a certain extent, that is, only regarding the solar system, otherwise obviously it also turns around something else, and in that sense our system, the system of the Earth and the Moon, is also geocentric, since the Earth does not turn around the moon, but the opposite.

Salaam

imrankhawaja

Quote from: Neptin on January 10, 2019, 01:29:13 AM

I agree with what you have written except the part on Dark Flow.


DARK flow is very mysterious type of subject same like dark energy and dark matter, its the findings from science u can fully disagree with it. i havnt studied dark flow in detail but whatever i study its amazing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_flow


Quote from: Neptin on January 10, 2019, 01:29:13 AM

This is why I beg to differ with those who claim Qur'an's mention of solar orbit refers to the its orbit around the center of the milky way galaxy.


same i differ in lot of things with people and its happening from the dawn of humankind..

whatever u claiming about them, its not true coz recent discoveries shows that galaxies are also moving away from eachother isnt it?.

Quote from: Neptin on January 10, 2019, 01:29:13 AM

We should try put ourself in position of the 7th century Arabs when we interpret Qur'an.


we CANT,

we just crossed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Discovery

we NOW are living in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Age

so we should interpret as per RULE 17 : 36 by checking all information what we have..(in 7th century information and todays information which one is ACCURATE ? ) about GPS and all maping system..



Quote from: Neptin on January 10, 2019, 01:29:13 AM

where did the flat earth proponents in the forum go?


may be they are on HOLIDAYS.
or solving the myth of solar and lunar eclipse phenomenon  :)

Wakas

When I studied this issue I never found any conclusive statements either way. My main issue with your initial post was that you claimed Quran confirms it but the evidence you presented wasn't conclusive.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]