Author Topic: Divorce and gender in the Quran  (Read 3031 times)

Dlanod

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Divorce and gender in the Quran
« on: December 30, 2018, 12:24:05 AM »
Peace:

I know the topic has been partially dealt with here:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609132.0

But I'm not sure it's been fully dealt with. I'm specifically looking at the verses on divorce and whether men have more options/the options women have. Take a verse like 2:226-227:

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=226

for those who swear off by their wives - OK easy

then if they decide on divorce - well, this suggests they = the husband, but this could be argued...

And likewise 2:228:

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=228

If 'they' wish for a reconciliation - again to me this suggests the man wishing for it - but would this apply even if the woman was reluctant.

The other issues is, I am currently struggling to see anywhere where a woman can apply for a divorce in the Quran. Perhaps I am just not reading the verse correctly.

Many thanks for any help.





huruf

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Re: Divorce and gender in the Quran
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2018, 02:15:58 AM »
The very aya you quote says it all, unless we do not want to understand the aya but rather use it for our own illegitimate purposes and in doing so we do not mind the aya meaning nonsense provided it suits us. .

It must be vorn in mind that the sentenced starts with the mutallaqaat, the divorced women. That is, the women are already divorced and if any mention of anything else is made after the divorce it is because of the possibility that she might be pregnant, so that no confusion might arise as to the paternity of any child, but she is already divorced. Therefore not married and therefore if they retract must by logic and gramar refer tot he women as well as the men. Even if they were not divorced you cannot make the plural restricted to the masculine gender because the conciliation is not obviously between the different members of the masculine gender but between one particular of them with one particular of the feminine gender, you need two in order to conciliate and two that have had conflict, otherwise there would not be anything to conciliate.

Also in the very same aya it is said that for the women the same as against them. We are still in the matter of divorce, so if the males have a right against the females so the females have it also against the male. As to the degree for the males (here it says males, not husbands) it obviously refers to what has been the question at the beginning of the aya and why it has been mentionned that they wait three courses and that they do not hide if the have conceived. Since the male do not conceive they do not have the obligation of not silencing conception, only women have that obligation since they are the only ones that conceive, and that is also why first it is spoken of husbands and then of males in general, because the males who might want to marry those divorced women should be aware if the woman they intend to marry has conceived of the previous husband or not.

Salaam

Novice

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Re: Divorce and gender in the Quran
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2018, 02:48:09 AM »
Salaam sister huruf

You have told the truth. :yes

Wakas

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Re: Divorce and gender in the Quran
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2018, 03:26:54 PM »
peace,

Welcome to the forum.

Quote
If 'they' wish for a reconciliation - again to me this suggests the man wishing for it - but would this apply even if the woman was reluctant.

See the dual use in 4:35 here:
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rwd#(4:35:13)


Please see part 3:
http://www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part3

To my knowledge, the husband is the one who initiates divorce/talaq, however the wife can release herself from the marriage but it is not called talaq explicitly in Quran. In practice the end result is the same. It could be considered nomenclature for the time.

Please also see:
http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-married-young-girl.htm

It would be highly unusual for Quran to allow women to enter into marriage of their own choice (and reconcile if they want to), but not allow them to end the marriage. Even after this, if one still thinks divorce is not an explicit right of the woman in marriage as per Quran, then the woman is free to stipulate anything in her marital oath/contract so she could put it in that if she wanted.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Dlanod

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Re: Divorce and gender in the Quran
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2019, 01:31:46 AM »
The very aya you quote says it all, unless we do not want to understand the aya but rather use it for our own illegitimate purposes and in doing so we do not mind the aya meaning nonsense provided it suits us. .


Peace:

Respectfully, I don't fully agree with what you have said or imply.

2:226 - The 'they' and 'those' can only refer to the husbands.

2:227 - Could be argued, but given 2:226 it is far more likely this refers to the husbands

2:228 - Cannot be argued that the husbands can take back the wives

This is just my opinion on what the Quran is saying.


huruf

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Re: Divorce and gender in the Quran
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2019, 01:38:41 AM »
Peace:

Respectfully, I don't fully agree with what you have said or imply.

2:226 - The 'they' and 'those' can only refer to the husbands.

2:227 - Could be argued, but given 2:226 it is far more likely this refers to the husbands

2:228 - Cannot be argued that the husbands can take back the wives

This is just my opinion on what the Quran is saying.

Is that the best meaning you can get out of it  Or do you think you can get that meaning even if it is not the best?

For them (feminine) the same as on them (feminine) seems to you unconclusive?

Salaam

Dlanod

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Re: Divorce and gender in the Quran
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2019, 01:39:00 AM »
however the wife can release herself from the marriage


Peace:

Is this what you derive from 4:35?

Dlanod

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Re: Divorce and gender in the Quran
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2019, 01:41:55 AM »

For them (feminine) the same as on them (feminine) seems to you unconclusive?

Salaam

Peace:

Which verse are you referring to here?

huruf

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Re: Divorce and gender in the Quran
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2019, 02:05:53 AM »
The one we are dealing with here 2.228.

Salaam

Wakas

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Re: Divorce and gender in the Quran
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2019, 04:27:39 AM »
Peace:

Is this what you derive from 4:35?

Not entirely. My point about 4:35 was that it says "If they BOTH want to reconcile". Seems clear the wife has a say/choice.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org