Author Topic: 2 Questions by Christians  (Read 3288 times)

centi50

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Re: 2 Questions by Christians
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2018, 03:37:42 PM »
Peace armom.
"Shubbiha lahum" ,for me means they thought /it appeared to them...that they killed the real Jesus. But they only killed the body as the real jesus in front of them was devoid of the soul. GOD has already taken the real Jesus (soul) to Him.
They cannot kill or crucify the spirit /soul.
You cannot have Qoran contradict itself. GOD talks about both entities in Qoran, but the real entity that needs saving and is the most important is the spiritual person.
I shall post for you another take on Jesus death next, GOD willing.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Salam to All,

Shubiha lahom/it appeared to them. I take this to mean that it appeared to them as if Jesus is dead but in real sense he was in comatose. This was God plan to save him. He did not die on the cross and hence God said wa ma salabuhu they did not crucify him because he did not die by that process he survived so we can not say he was crucified maybe crucificted (I don't know if this word exsist) a fiction happened.

This is my 10 cent understanding.

God bless

huruf

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Re: 2 Questions by Christians
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2018, 01:48:02 AM »
shubbiha lahum, many centuries after events occurred that something like that scenification occurred.

If we follow the Qur'an we cannot find a single trace of anything like a judicial or popular persecution of 3isaa. Contrary to, for example Musa, who was eminent in the next life, the Qur'an talls us also that was wel regarded in this life and int he next. No mention at all in Qur'an of any tragical event in the life of 3isaa. He lived contentedly with his mother in a safe high place.

Please read carefully everything that concerns 3isaa in the Qur'an. Everything and isregard any extraneous element. You will see that it has nothign to do whatsoever with the life of Jesus.

Salaam

good logic

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Re: 2 Questions by Christians
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2018, 04:17:45 AM »
Peace centi50.
Have you read " reply 15" in this thread?
Your comment has not taken that post into account.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

bagyane

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Re: 2 Questions by Christians
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2018, 11:36:41 AM »
Indeed, the disbelievers tried to destroy Isa, but Allah saved him. 3/54

They initially plotted to crucify him, they nailed him to a cross, hanged him on it and his blood flows but did not died on it, meaning they did not crucified him. So when they were in doubt about his death on the cross, he was pierced with a spear to ensure his death, that was the reason for their claimed that ?we killed him? instead of ?we crucified him? but that didn?t caused his death again, that is why we are informed that ?of surety they did not killed him. 4/157

It was after he was raised from coma, all of his disciples believe in and helped him 3/52 - 53 and 4/159

And later migrated to a secured land 23/50

Migration is a trend for the messengers of God 17/76 - 77

He testify for the disciples 5/116 - 117


huruf

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Re: 2 Questions by Christians
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2018, 12:15:49 PM »
No mention of any coma of 3isa or of any migration of 3isaa in the Qur'an.

I guess the gospel narrative of Jesus is so attractive many people feel that it is a great favour bestowed ont he Qur'an to introduce in it those qasaas, but the Qur'an does not contain them. And one is free to surmise whatever one wants, but those things are not in Qur'an. However there is that

3.45

قَالَتِ الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللَّـهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ ﴿٤٥﴾

(And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious (wajiihan) in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).



33.69
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تَكُونُوا كَالَّذِينَ آذَوْا مُوسَىٰ فَبَرَّأَهُ اللَّـهُ مِمَّا قَالُوا ۚ وَكَانَ عِندَ اللَّـهِ وَجِيهًا ﴿٦٩﴾

O ye who believe! Be not as those who slandered Moses, but Allah proved his innocence of that which they alleged, and he was well esteemed (wajiihan) in Allah's sight.

Musa was not even threatened with something like crucifixion and he is deemed wajiihan before God, but not in front of men. However 3isaa is is deemed wajiihan in this life and in  he next.

The thing that he was crucified but not killed on the cross is clinging to straws. No crucifixion is admitted in the Qur'an neither with death result or without.

Salaam



Bikrun

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Re: 2 Questions by Christians
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2018, 01:03:50 AM »
Salaam 'Alaikum,

A christian once asked me this question, but I didn't have a good historical background to answer this..

1) Why did God send Muhammad 600 years after Jesus, denying the crucifixion while for 600 years people believed that Jesus was crucified.

2) Why is there no eye witnesses for Muhammad while Jesus had many eye witnesses.

Thank you!

Salam,

1. Crucifixion is accepted by the canon gospels. There is no crucifixion in other apocryphal gospels and no historical evidence of it beyond the Christian writings. Well known for Muslims is the Barnabas gospel although it is one of the most doubted of them for anachronism and many other considered mistakes in it.

2. Although many people think the opposite, there is no objective witness of any historical Jesus. All we know about Jesus is what Christians sources say (the gospels)



42:43    And for he who is patient and forgives, then that is an indication of strength

huruf

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Re: 2 Questions by Christians
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2018, 01:56:44 AM »
The point with all this, is that each religion is what it is.

Long time ago I read a book by a catholic priest who said something with which I agree and which explains in its conciseness the meaning of the difference of religions. He said in the first sentences of the book that Christianity is a mysteric religion and islam a natural religion. Those of us who have grown up and been educated in christianity, in my case catholicism, quite understand the mysteric part. We would say that mystery is the tool of christianity to convey the reality of God. On the other hand we do know how much the Qur'an relies on calling back and pointing out to the "natural" reason and  reality we can see and feel, such as it is.

Of course, neither Christianity is devoid of natural reason, nor islam is devoid of some mystery, but the weight placed on each  in each religion is different. 

Once more, we are caught up in history. In essence christianity does not need at all "a particular" person such as a Jesus that was crucified and killed and persecuted and then raised. In fact many people are today and have been always crucified and persecuted and killed, and we do hope they will raise.
Confusing a spiritual language or projection such as mysteriesChristian mysteries included, with actual history is tragic, is in fact killing the "magic", the beneficial and cathartic effect of religion.

Those muslims who are so much in love with the Christian Jesus do not need to project it on the Qur'an. 3isaa, the qura'nic prophet, is not Jesus, the crucified, neither historically nor spiritually. It is not a matter of one being wrong and the other right. Both are right, but they are not what sentimentally we want them to be, but what they bring to us as spiritual enlightment and nearness to the redeeming God, the kind and Merciful.

No crucifixion nor attempted crucifixion in the Qur'an. Maryam's son and His mother are an aya, are a new horizon for humanity. If we wat to benefit from the Qur'an, we should look at what the Qur'an tells us and not look to find how it could tell us what we insist on expecting it to tell us. It will not.
If we feel touched by the Jesus Christ of Christianity, it is good, but we do not need to import it into the Qur'an, we can take it fresh, as it is, from genuine Christianity, it will not hurt us, the certaint that God redeems, and raises those have fallen or been perscuted to the lowest and deepest humiliation to Himself.

I do recomend Tolstoy's Resurrection.

Let us leave to each spiritual teaching its purity, so that we all can benefit from them. I am sure, I know, christians do also benefit from the wonders of Qur'an. That is the proper way to share our spiritual gifts, keeping them pure, not disolving them into any amorphous fit all mishmash.

Ancient Egyptian religion was also mysteric, we could say that very mysteric, but it was quite effective. It did move the heart to love divinity and brought to the heart its intimate tie  with the divine Mercifulness. But each content requires the proper vase for it.

Like with spirits, mixing is a bad idea. Pure is way better.


Salaam