Author Topic: hajj is (in) the months well known... 2:197  (Read 2817 times)

Wakas

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hajj is (in) the months well known... 2:197
« on: November 15, 2018, 05:56:34 AM »
peace all,

Some of you may know this already but it is interesting...

In Traditional Islam hajj is performed within a set number of days of the their month called "Dhū al-Ḥijjah". What is less well known among Traditional Muslims is that The Quran says:

"the hajj are months well known so whoever undertook the hajj within them..." 2:197
"the hajj is (in) months well known so whoever undertook the hajj within them..." 2:197

You can clearly see the plural is used (see bold words).

So how do the Traditionalists overcome this obvious issue?
Like they overcome most issues ---> by using external sources (e.g. traditions) to explain away the usage.

There is variance in interpretation about this issue (what a surprise!) but according to Ibn Kathir (famous Sunni tafsir) it cites traditions that claim this part refers to the months of Shawwal, Dhul-Qa`dah and the first ten days of Dhul-Hijjah, but it means one can wear the ihram* (simple clothing worn to indicate a sacred state with the intention of performing hajj) in these months with the implication that the actual hajj rituals are still done within the set days of "Dhū al-Ḥijjah" only.

Some may find that explanation satisfactory. I don't.

I often find it interesting that many Traditional Muslims will claim The Quran is a superior work of Arabic, rhythmic, style, eloquent etc but when actually viewed through Traditional interpretations its not eloquent at all (i.e. it allegedly requires external sources to make sense of basic commands, such as this example).


Background:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610235.0

*ihram as understood in Traditional Islam is not explicitly from The Quran.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Novice

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Re: hajj is (in) the months well known... 2:197
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2018, 08:58:08 PM »
Islam we see today is man made which has been evolved in about 1500 hundred years. Original Deen is in the book of Allah and not in man made holy books. Majority is following these holy books leaving Quraan behind them.

ayman

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Re: hajj is (in) the months well known... 2:197
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2018, 01:49:22 PM »
"the hajj are months well known so whoever undertook the hajj within them..." 2:197
"the hajj is (in) months well known so whoever undertook the hajj within them..." 2:197

Peace brother Wakas,

This begs the question, how is it that the "hajj" are months well known to us? How are we any different than the Sunnis in interpreting this? What makes this untranslated word "hajj" inherently hapening in a well known time to all of humanity? 

There is no such thing as universal known months for a pilgrimage or for a debate or whatever. There is on the other hand well known harvest full-moons for the harvest feast. So now by properly translating this passage it suddenly becomes obvious and clear and completely self-explanatory:

"The harvest feast is full-moons well known so whoever decreed the harvest feast within them..." 2:197

Peace and best regards,

Ayman


jkhan

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Re: hajj is (in) the months well known... 2:197
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2018, 02:27:09 AM »
Peace Ayman,

May I know how did you take two words (Harvest & Feast) for one word (Haj)? Is it your understanding to the word Haj or is it from root words of ?HAJ??.Further please let me know the actual words used in quran to mean Harvest & feast separately other than Haj if those words available in quran?
Full Moons (would you please explain when you said Full moons, does it mean complete cycle of full moons i.e. month/s well know to audience?) Do you normally translate all the words of Ash?hurr as full moons in quran and not as months?

2:197 Arberry: The Pilgrimage(haj) is in months well-known; whoso undertakes the duty of Pilgrimage in them shall not go in to his womenfolk nor indulge in ungodlines[/b]s and disputing in the Pilgrimage. Whatever good you do, God knows it. And take provision; but the best provision is godfearing, so fear you Me, men possessed of minds!

Further please translate the Complete verse 2:197 as per your best  understanding and explain pls the highlighted portions in connection with Harvest Feast..Appreciate your response?
God bless you with knowledge and wisdom..
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Zach

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Re: hajj is (in) the months well known... 2:197
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2018, 03:33:45 PM »

jkhan

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Re: hajj is (in) the months well known... 2:197
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2021, 09:47:56 PM »
Peace...

For me after thoroughly pondering over the verses of umra I have concluded that there is no any such rituals mentioned in Quran... Haj is definitely mainly based with rituals and the one who fulfils it is a haji (pilgrim) .. But umra is nothing just a pointless addition...

This particular word umra ayn mīm rā is none other but cultivating / maintain or foster  etc...

Since Haj is something it can be fulfilled over the period of four months,  definitely there arise the necessity of those who maintain the restricted sanctuary... First of all such places needs to be clean and tidy... Unless more men are assigned or voluntarily taking part in fostering the restricted sanctuary where Haj do take place it would be tough going..
Even in the verse 2:196 it is fulfill Haj and maintenance for Allah... Umra is just an addition as ritual through hadith I consider.. If anyone has any objection I do welcome him or her to present the view that umra is also a ritual like haj... But those who maintain /foster masjid Al haram (restricted sanctuary can also fulfil haj while doing maintenance (umra)

Imran rituals.. That's not gonna workout within Quran..
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Aladin Azra

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Re: hajj is (in) the months well known... 2:197
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2022, 05:40:53 AM »
First, let's notice that there's no IN (fee فِي) at the start of 2:197, so it cannot mean that el-Hajj is IN anything. The proof for this is 22:28 where IN was used with eyām ma'loomāt فِي أَيَّامٍ مَعْلُومَاتٍ. This means that el-Hajj IS ešhur ma'loomāt أَشْهُرٌ مَعْلُومَاتٌ and we have to figure out what this means.

Passive ma'loomāt is a feminine plural and it's an adjective of ešhur here. The passive participle means that some verb was done on its subject if there's no active participle, or it means that some verb is doing on its subject in case that there's an active participle. Since we can't see an active participle we should conclude that ma'lumāt already have their passive state. We should note that the language of the Qur'an has an anticausative also, which is expressed by verbal form VII. So, who made ešhur ma'lumāt?

We should note that ešhur is more likely masculine, especially in 65:4 since it has feminine number (3) or 9:5 where probably masculine adjective Hurum is used. Due to this we could conclude that ešhur, as all other words, has multiple meaning and that some meanings are masculine and some feminine, because it's obvious that in 2:197 ešhur should be feminine plural. As ešhur in 65:4 most probably means "(3) months" where it's masculine, we can conclude that ešhur in 2:197 has some other meaning.

Root šeen-ha-ra describes revealing of something step-by-step, or in case of the Moon by phases. Ešhur as a collective noun can mean all these steps or phases, thus in relation to the Moon it means "(lunar) month". This collective form is singular and plural same time, as, for example, enfus is singular and plural for "self" (selves). This also mean that ešhur is not a plural of šehr, which has its normal plural in šuhoor, as, for example, beyt has buyoot.

If ešhur are not months, then what it means here?

Due to its root meaning and noun's form we could conclude that ešhur is some sort of a collection of revealings. Since el-Hajj is debating, discussing we could conclude that ešhur means a collection of presentations speakers/participants in el-Hajj. Why they're ma'loomāt? Because the host (Ibrahim and people after him) already chosen and decided which set of topics and their presenters will be el-Hajj.

The rest of 2:197 talks about those who participiate IN THEM (fee hinne فِيهِنَّ), meaning speakers/participants in presentations of the Hajj.

I hope this makes sense...
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Wakas

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Re: hajj is (in) the months well known... 2:197
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2022, 03:39:29 AM »

"the hajj are months well known so whoever undertook the hajj within them..." 2:197
"the hajj is (in) months well known so whoever undertook the hajj within them..." 2:197


Slight correction/clarification:

"the hajj are months well known so whoever specifies/obligates the hajj within them..." 2:197

i.e. it is the person that determines this. Similar to what I said about when to end it, see:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Aladin Azra

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Re: hajj is (in) the months well known... 2:197
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2022, 06:17:12 AM »
Slight correction/clarification:

"the hajj are months well known so whoever specifies/obligates the hajj within them..." 2:197

How the Hajj can be months? Why you reject that word ešhur can mean something else?

Nobody can understand the Qur'an unless he understands why melaa'iket in the first story told in the Qur'an in 2:30 asked what they asked. How come they came to the conclusion that there'll be fesaad in 'erD and blood will be shed?
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