Author Topic: Could someone please explain following verse to me?  (Read 1173 times)

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Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2018, 11:56:01 AM »
No, it is not to say that. Only the point that Misr is the same place where the Ruler is mentioned by Malik in the days of Yusuf alahissalam and the same Misr is the place where Firaun  was mentioned as the Ruler in the days of Musa alahissalm.

So the title of the Ruler is different in the same Misr in two periods of history.

We will later see in Qur'aan that this Misr is the same Misr of today, also called Egypt.

There are few assumptions here namely:

Misr is the name of a place....whereas Misr is an Arabic word from root م ص ر with the meaning "a partition between two things.

Firaun is a title and not a name.....background is that pharaoh was the title of rulers of Egypt. Is Firaun=Pharaoh?

Mazhar

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Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2018, 02:29:06 PM »
There are few assumptions here namely:

Misr is the name of a place....whereas Misr is an Arabic word from root م ص ر with the meaning "a partition between two things.

Firaun is a title and not a name.....background is that pharaoh was the title of rulers of Egypt. Is Firaun=Pharaoh?

No assumptions. In a book which says it is explicitly explicit, it cant leave things for assumptions.


مفردات ألفاظ القرآن — الراغب الأصفهاني (٥٠٢ هـ

مصر  المِصْرُ اسم لكلّ بلد ممصور، أي: محدود

That it is name for any any land with defined boundaries and walled.

Lane Lexicon: The area between two things. A partition or a barrier or thing intervening between two things. Limit or boundary between two lands.

In Qur'aan it is stated as a walled locality/city by mentioning entrance/door(s). So it is a place where people lived.

One is particularized by reference to a person referred as Fir'auan.

Both are diptotes showing as if both are of non-Arabic origin.

We will see in Qur'aan who was he and where was he living. It is whether Name or Title that will make little difference in identifying him since subjects of a king know more his title than the personal name.

It will be very poor for us if we cannot identify a person whose name or title is second to one Noun by count of mention in Qur'aan in the word category of Proper Nouns,

There must be something especial and unique to this King, than all the kings who preceded him in history, that in the category of Proper Nouns his Name finds mention maximum number of times (74) only less than the elevated Messenger Musa alahissalam whose name finds mention 136 times.


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Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2018, 02:46:28 PM »
No assumptions. In a book which says it is explicitly explicit, it cant leave things for assumptions.


مفردات ألفاظ القرآن — الراغب الأصفهاني (٥٠٢ هـ

مصر  المِصْرُ اسم لكلّ بلد ممصور، أي: محدود

That it is name for any any land with defined boundaries and walled.

Lane Lexicon: The area between two things. A partition or a barrier or thing intervening between two things. Limit or boundary between two lands.

In Qur'aan it is stated as a walled locality/city by mentioning entrance/door(s). So it is a place where people lived.

One is particularized by reference to a person referred as Fir'auan.

Both are diptotes showing as if both are of non-Arabic origin.

We will see in Qur'aan who was he and where was he living. It is whether Name or Title that will make little difference in identifying him since subjects of a king know more his title than the personal name.

It will be very poor for us if we cannot identify a person whose name or title is second to one Noun by count of mention in Qur'aan in the word category of Proper Nouns; 74 times in 27 chapters while his contemporary Musa alahissalm is first by 136 mentions.

Thank you Mazhar. I love to learn the truth so waiting to see how you conclude Misr=Egypt.


Mazhar

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Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2018, 02:56:35 PM »
Thank you Mazhar. I love to learn the truth so waiting to see how you conclude Misr=Egypt.

I will try to restrict strictly to academic rules and principles of studying a book without preconceived notions and influences of the works done earlier on the subject.
No assumptions, no far fetched inferences, no insertion of meanings different than the Lexicons, and no lessening of semantics of a word; e.g. Form-V or Form VIII must not be translated by equating with basic form.
Each word in the original text is a pearl embedded at its proper place - it can't be substituted with another Arabic word to render it in English.
Elisions in source text nor anaphora resolution will be overlooked. Allah the Exalted so willing.

I will need your help for scrutiny and insights.

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Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2018, 03:11:52 PM »
Thank you. I am just a student taking every opportunity to learn, I will in sha'a Allah pitch in what Allah has shown me so far.

Mazhar

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Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2018, 03:28:40 PM »
In the hope that you will certainly help, let us begin with: Fir'aoun (Pharaoh for ease of generally referred word otherwise we restrict to source text name).

This Proper Name finds mention in Grand Qur’ān 74 times in 27 Chapters. The person by this Name (or Title, since Kings are known to the majority of their subjects mostly by Title and they are mostly addressed by their honorific title) is mentioned exclusively in the narrative of history period relating to the life of elevated Messenger Musa alahissalam, since his childhood to the death of this King.

Classical Lexicons mentioned its Root as: ف ر ع ن. Lane's Lexicon translated the classical Arabic Lexicons in these words:
 {He (a man, TA) affected the nature, or disposition, of the فَرَاعِنَة [pl. of فِرْعَوْنُ, and here meaning such as are inordinately proud or corrupt or unbelieving, &c., as were the Pharaohs]. (S, * K, TA.) فَرْعَنَةٌ  Cunning; i. e. intelligence, or sagacity; or intelligence mixed with craft and forecast; (S, K, TA;) and pride, haughtiness, or insolence. (TA.) فِرْعَوْنُ  [Pharaoh;] the surname of El-Weleed Ibn-Mus'ab, king of Egypt: (S:) or the surname of every king of Egypt: (K:) or it signifies, (K,) or signifies also, (S,) [app. used as a proper name,] anyone inordinately proud or corrupt or unbelieving; (S, K;) insolent and audacious in acts of rebellion or disobedience, or extravagant therein and in wrongdoing:] unquote

A three radical Root: ف ر ع also denotes as Lane's Lexicon translates it: Its primary signification is: He overtopped, or surpassed in height or tallness: in eminence, or nobility,

We find in Qur'aan his first characteristic exactly matching the concept of rendition of his name in Arabic:

We recite unto you the Messenger [Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam] the narrative of the history relating to Mūsā [alai'his'slaam] and Fir'aoun (Pharaoh), truthfully, for the people who believe. [28:03]

إِنَّ فِرْعَوْنَ عَلَا فِي الْأَرْضِ
Indeed Fir'aoun (Pharaoh) had exalted himself in the Land (which land not mentioned here by name or specification);

And he had rendered its society segmented in few classes—

By design he kept causing weakening a group of them;

He used to slaughter their sons and let their women live.

Indeed he was of those who cause distortions and create imbalances/in-equilibrium. [28:04]

The verbal sentence: عَلَا  comprising of  Verb: Perfect; Third person; Singular; Masculine; [intransitive];  Subject Pronoun hidden referent to Fir'aoun is the true depiction of his Arabic name/title. Its verbal noun is; مصدر-عُلُوٌ stemming from Root: ع ل و. It leads to the perception of eminence, loftiness, sublimity, elevation, exaltation, and up-rise; such exaltation and grandeur that nothing can deviate from it.


(مقاييس اللغة)
(عَلَوَ) الْعَيْنُ وَاللَّامُ وَالْحَرْفُ الْمُعْتَلُّ يَاءً كَانَ أَوْ وَاوًا أَوْ أَلِفًا، أَصْلٌ وَاحِدٌ يَدُلُّ عَلَى السُّمُوِّ وَالِارْتِفَاعِ، لَا يَشِذُّ عَنْهُ شَيْءٌ
Lane Lexicon: It (a thing, Msb) was, or became, high, elevated, or lofty; he was, or became, high, or elevated, or exalted, in dignity, or nobility

And indeed We had rescued Bani Iesraa'eel from the humiliating torture/anguish— [44:30]
They were suffering from Fir'aoun (Pharaoh).

Indeed he (Fir'aoun/Pharaoh) had made himself the top most of the transgressors -  unjust rulers. [44:31]

It is the judgement of Allah the Exalted. Evaluee about whom judgement is made is Fir'aun. He is placed in the highest negative evaluation that he had become the top most transgressor and unjust ruler. He was warned by Mūsā [alai'his'slaam] about his extreme abnormality:

And that you people should not exalt yourselves defiantly against command of Allah the Exalted;
 
Indeed I have come to you with manifest authority; [44:19]

And indeed I have already taken refuge with the Sustainer Lord of me and the Sustainer Lord of you people that you could hurl harm to me. [44:20]
 
And if you have not yet decided to believe me, thereby, consciously keep yourselves aloof from me." [44:21]

(He was sent to give message to Fir'aoun and his chieftains, Haman and Qaroon in particular).

Can we believe that merely enslaving a segment of populace of his kingdom and treating them harshly could earn him the condemnation of top transgressor since many would have done this even in recent history?

So there should be something else.

Mazhar

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Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2018, 03:30:50 PM »
Thank you. I am just a student taking every opportunity to learn, I will in sha'a Allah pitch in what Allah has shown me so far.

I am also purely a student. Only students can learn seeking help from each other.

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Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2018, 10:41:36 PM »
Classical Lexicons mentioned its Root as: ف ر ع ن. Lane's Lexicon translated the classical Arabic Lexicons in these words:
 {He (a man, TA) affected the nature, or disposition, of the فَرَاعِنَة [pl. of فِرْعَوْنُ, and here meaning such as are inordinately proud or corrupt or unbelieving, &c., as were the Pharaohs]. (S, * K, TA.) فَرْعَنَةٌ  Cunning; i. e. intelligence, or sagacity; or intelligence mixed with craft and forecast; (S, K, TA;) and pride, haughtiness, or insolence. (TA.) فِرْعَوْنُ  [Pharaoh;] the surname of El-Weleed Ibn-Mus'ab, king of Egypt: (S:) or the surname of every king of Egypt: (K:) or it signifies, (K,) or signifies also, (S,) [app. used as a proper name,] anyone inordinately proud or corrupt or unbelieving; (S, K;) insolent and audacious in acts of rebellion or disobedience, or extravagant therein and in wrongdoing:] unquote

Qur'an, as the criteria, describes character of Firaun. Do we have any historical ae well as archaeological evidence to prove that El-Weleed Ibn-Mus'ab was the king of Egypt. Is this an Arabic name or ancient Egyptian name of Pharaoh?



Mazhar

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Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2018, 01:45:03 AM »
Qur'an, as the criteria, describes character of Firaun. Do we have any historical ae well as archaeological evidence to prove that El-Weleed Ibn-Mus'ab was the king of Egypt. Is this an Arabic name or ancient Egyptian name of Pharaoh?

Lexicon has not given details or even period if he was actually a king. Thereby it is not important. Actual one is he mentioned in Qur'an.

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Re: Could someone please explain following verse to me?
« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2018, 12:52:33 AM »
Lexicon has not given details or even period if he was actually a king. Thereby it is not important. Actual one is he mentioned in Qur'an.

But you were to base our discussion on lexicons along with Quran and Arabic grammar and now you wrote it is not important.

Here is some information about disputed Egyption forklore:

 https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610352.0;topicseen