Who is Isra'iil إِسْرَائِيلَ

[The Sardar]

Salam,



10:90 clearly affirms that banii Israila are muslimima when Firaun says so:

10:90 And We helped the Children of Israel cross the sea, and Pharaoh and his soldiers followed them out of hatred and animosity. But when he was certain to drown, he said: "I believe that there is no god except the One in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who have submitted (muslimina).

(And btw i think it is the only moment when "bani" is used in nominative (banuu) regarding "bani Israila").

And I cant recall any verse stating that banii Israila are the yahudu, but as other brothers pointed out, in 19:58 and 3:93 he seems to be a person named beside Abraham, before the revelation of Tawra who had descendants (i dont know in which sense).

Brother Noshrik I encourage you to share your knowledge and point of view. It would be really interesting. Thank you

Salam/Peace Bikrun, it's been a while! Yes as i said before, i have not seen a verse calling Bani Isra'ill yahudu. And sister Bikrun found a verse conforming that they were muslims/peacemakers.

[huruf]

I thank you all for your answers, they are helpful and make the subject more lively and interesting.

I missed the israa'iil in 3.92. Thank you.

At any rate in this case as in others I have become suspicious of what traditionally are called proper names int he Qur'an because once that label is pinned on a word, then it seems that we are precluded from seeing any meaning in it.

I personally think that the words I am calling into question are full of meaning, a meaning which is important for us now and ever, I would say.

In israa'iil I see very plainly the word `israa` which has a clear qura'nic meaning. In fact it is the title of a sura which it seems is also known for a second title as bani `sraa`iil

For me there is no doubt that the gist of  the question is in the israa' part. Those who travel by night. Germanic people have a celebration in autumn when they go outside with candles and they sing, like they travel by night seeking the light and they are going "HOME". It is a spiritual celebration. I do not know if the halloween of about the same dates has the same origin, but as I have lived the germanic thing in Austria and amongst the swiss it is really serious, moving and beautiful, very heartfelt and quiet. 

I cannot but see in the `israa' the same spiritual meaning, the quest for the divine light.

So the thing I am still seeking is the "iil" part. Smoke is coming out of my head from trying to find the grammatical morphological support to the compound `israa`iil.
At one time I thought the iil might be what comes in the dictionnaries as "ill" with the meaning of pact or compact, but there is a double lam which obviously in `israa`iil is not there, neither it is there in for instance `ismaa3iil which is exactly the same word form as `israa`il, a masdar of form IV + iil.

What I have been able to find which would come closer would be a noun of root Alif-w-l, from which the word `aal, like `aal 3imraan, derives.

So the bani `israa`iil, as I see it, would be all those people in whose past or traditions there are teachings about going from darkness into light, which in fact would be all the peoples int he world. It would not be a blood or genes question, but a spiritual behaviour question, and therefore if in the Qur'an we are told over and over abou bani `israa`iil it is not because there would be a special people who should be overimportant for everybody, but rather because we all have those characteristics of keeping forgetting what we were about and where we come from and where  we are going.

I would be very thankful for any help with the morphological grammar part of the question that I have mentionned. 

As to the person named `israa`iil, if it is a person, it could be the initial preacher of that travel from darkness into light among his or her or its people. It may be merely a message. Just as rasul has been applied to persons but in fact it is a message.

Salaam and thank you again.

[Cerberus]

Sardar I think there is an issue with your browser not displaying certain characters

[The Sardar]

Sardar I think there is an issue with your browser not displaying certain characters

Are you sure? Could be. I dont know maybe we should tell this to the staff about this.

[Bikrun]

So the bani `israa`iil, as I see it, would be all those people in whose past or traditions there are teachings about going from darkness into light, which in fact would be all the peoples int he world. It would not be a blood or genes question, but a spiritual behaviour question, and therefore if in the Qur'an we are told over and over abou bani `israa`iil it is not because there would be a special people who should be overimportant for everybody, but rather because we all have those characteristics of keeping forgetting what we were about and where we come from and where  we are going.

As to the person named `israa`iil, if it is a person, it could be the initial preacher of that travel from darkness into light among his or her or its people. It may be merely a message. Just as rasul has been applied to persons but in fact it is a message.

Salam,

Interesting point, please share if you get deeper into it.

Maybe the next will help:


2:37   Adam then received words from his Lord, so He forgave him; He is the Forgiver, the Merciful.
2:38   We said: "Descend from it all of you, so when the guidance comes from Me then whoever follows My guidance, they will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve."
2:39   And those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, they are the dwellers of Hell, in it they will abide.
2:40   "O Children of Israel, remember My favor that I had bestowed upon you, and fulfill your pledge to Me that I may fulfill My pledge to you, and reverence Me alone.
2:41   And believe in what I have sent down, affirming what is with you, and do not be the first to disbelieve in it! And do not purchase with My revelations a cheap gain, and of Me you shall be aware"


Bani Israila have nothing to do with yahudu. Bani Israil were sent a revelation to confirm what is with them already (??) and maybe they have been there since Adam (??) or at least they are from the first groups of humans (or from the firt kinds of individuals, I dont know) since the "I" from 2:40 is addressing them directly and telling them not to be the first (awwala) to disbelieve. Let's see then what "Israil" means and maybe just maybe that Israel in bani Israila is just a coincidence with the prophet Israil in 3:92

Salam/Peace Bikrun, it's been a while!

Salam, brother!  Yeeeees, it is been a hard long while but thanks God everything is fine 

[huruf]

Are you sure? Could be. I dont know maybe we should tell this to the staff about this.

,
I think you told me at one time that there was no text in a message of mine and showed it, but that text was there, I could see it and I guess everybody else could see it too. May be it is some configuration you have, settings or whatever. Or may be you are bewitched, hahaha.

Salaam

[The Sardar]

,
I think you told me at one time that there was no text in a message of mine and showed it, but that text was there, I could see it and I guess everybody else could see it too. May be it is some configuration you have, settings or whatever. Or may be you are bewitched, hahaha.

Salaam

NEIN!

[The Sardar]

Now in 3:93 is something that has on my mind:

3:93 كل الطعام كان حلا لبنى اسراءيل الا ما حرم اسراءيل علىا نفسه من قبل ان تنزل التورىاة قل فاتوا بالتورىاة فاتلوها ان كنتم صادقين

Now if you see this 2 Isra'ill is i marked with colors with green & red.

Red is the Bani Isra'ill which is a genitive proper noun is of course referring to the tribe of Isra'ill where as the green one is the person named Isra'ill which the grammar form is a nominative proper noun.

Now here is something i noticed.

All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Tawrat was sent down.
Kullu alttaAAami kanahillan libanee isra-eela illa ma harramaisra-eelu AAala nafsihi min qabli an tunazzala alttawratu

Noticed the phrase qabli an tunazzala alttawratu/before the Tawrat was sent down. Does this mean that Bani Isra'ill existed before Tawrat was sent down by Allah/God (SWTAY)? Correct me if i am wrong. Salam/Peace.

[noshirk]

Salaam
OK.
i will summarize and i will not use conditional since all is my own point of view

isra is something like travel in secret/by night.
el for me mean people like al firauon

isreal, for me represent the priesthood. That is "people" who put themselves on the track of true messengers searching for opportunities for themselves.
Priesthood is equal to false prophecy since all the time they says "allah says and son on" and Allah never said what they says.
We have to distinguish word Rabb from Word Allah. Rabb mean educator withe Allah means "The God".
There is only one Rabb means not to take others Rabbs. Rabbis, riba and Rabb are same root.

banu is not descent but means educated by. walad is biological descent.
so banu israel point to all people astrayed by false prophecy of Israel. Banu Israel make shirk by mixing teaching of God with teaching of Israel.
When Moses said to Firaoun "arsil" banu Israel with me, that doesn't mean send them with me to another country but a reference to his "messenship" (arsil and rassol same root). So Moses asked Firaoun to let him teach to people astrayed bu Israel. however Firaoun declared he is the Rabb (that is educator and not God). Please check the speach of the good guy in people of firaon who clearly determine that people of Firaoun recognized Yusuf as prophet.
As Borther Pazuzu showed, All this story was somewhere in Yemen and not in Egypt.

In the bible, "Israel" took the place of Jacob after a fight with an angel. It is allegorical.
and he cheated his father Isaac to become prophet in place of his brother Esau. Rabbis presents Esau as the father of "occident/christianity"

What "Israel" want is power and money and uses religion for that.
Israel  is from antiquity searching to establish kingdom of Israel.

Israel never existed as a person.

At opposite Ismael is the people (el) who (listen). In fact it represent the true followers of God. Since there is no priesthood in Ismael, people educated by Ismael have no sense and banu Ismael had no sense. I think also that Ismael perhaps never existed as person

Yahood represent Ya hood that is people who call themselves the guided ones. In fact yahood consider themselves guided since they are born. They can be even atheist. Religion for them is just cultural identity. They are not considered as believers even if they says so. No paradise for them.

Allathina Haadoo is another concept. It can be traduced by "who were guided", so we cannot decide if they are still guided or not. They are true believers in god but can do many mistakes since they also be banu Israel. However they are a mix of good and bad persons.


to expose and justify my opinion, it would take many time and it is a debate "for specialists"

However let see things from another side.
Actual Tawrat/Torah is not a revealed book. Tawr mean a messenger accepted by both sender and receiver.
Actual Torah can be considered as a mix of teaching of Allah and Israel.
I don't know how the mix was done.

But it is interesting how Israel changed "the story" comparing with Quran.
In Quran there is no Esau, no Hagar, no expulsion of Ismael by Abraham.

But there is as story hidden in all this.
An allegorical anthropomorphism.
And never forget in what will follows that it is point of view of Israel, that all is reverted, and that in Quran Issac and Jacob were good guys.

Let says that Abraham represents God.
God has a first child (Ismael).
The mother of Isaac (the second child) asked Abraham to expulse Ismael (compare with expulsion of Ibliss from paradise).

Isaac has a strange name. Root points to destruction.

Isaac has tow childs (Esau and Jacob). Esau (probably same root as Issa) represents the circumcision of the heart (spiritual approach of religion like many quranists here) and Jacob the classic circumcision  (that is a religion based on ritualism like prostrating 5 a days toward a kaabb in stone).
the fight for prophecy between Esau and Israel is a prefiguration of the fight between Christ and antichrist.

But the true religion is Ismael. Not Spirituality and not ritualism.

Really, it is too hard to expose this. And in english, it is quite impossible for me.



Peace

[Novice]

We have to distinguish word Rabb from Word Allah. Rabb mean educator withe Allah means "The God".
There is only one Rabb means not to take others Rabbs. Rabbis, riba and Rabb are same root.

Rabbis is English not Arabic. Root of riba is not ر ب ب but ر ب و .