:: Muhammad is NOT our Rasool ::

[Makaveli]

The prophet Muhammad

Who is prophet Muhammad?

[hawk99]

interesting discussion guys 😜

True 

I dnt even know all these stories are metaphor or really did happen in true time space ?

While studying Al Quran I noticed 3:7 again:

He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or
fundamental they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical.
But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is
allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings,
but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who
are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the
whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except
men of understanding.

This ayat is a lens by which we view the Quran, understand things, gain wisdom,
interact with one another and more.  The allegories are to teach us, not to
split hairs, or argue about, but to learn from.

Who is prophet Muhammad?

You can research the subject at your leisure.

Let's not derail the thread but stick to the topic at hand.

                                       

[huruf]

This ayat is a lens by which we view the Quran, understand things, gain wisdom,
interact with one another and more.  The allegories are to teach us, not to
split hairs, or argue about, but to learn from.

That is also what I think. We can enjoy whatever light e find in them but no ground to be dogmatic about anything.

Salaam

[Makaveli]

You can research the subject at your leisure.

You mean a warmonger who called himself 'rasul-allah' and refused to accept "donations" yet was a first one in a row to greedily grab a "gift"? Because that's what I can find from my research. Did you mean him?

This ayat is a lens by which we view the Quran, understand things, gain wisdom,
interact with one another and more.  The allegories are to teach us, not to
split hairs, or argue about, but to learn from.

As usual the same cheap excuse of 3:7.

Sunni logic:

Can't explain something > say Allah knows best

Quran alone logic:

Can't explain something > cite 3:7

Iright, let us begin with 3:7.

Useless understanding. محكمات does not mean fundamental nor متشابهات means in any way allegorical. Not to mention, ايات does not mean verses either, its primary meaning is a sign.

Gain wisdom? Tell me the Quran alone methodology on how you differentiate between "fundamental" and "allegorical" verses? Which aspects tell you which of the two categories does the verse belong to? Is the "I do not swear by the city" in 90:1 an allegory or a fundamental/absoluetely clear verse?

Man's word is his bond. You apporached this subject yourself. Now give logical explanation to the above as well as your "prophet muhammad" thing or prove you were just mumbbling non sense all that time without understanding anything. Look at the mirror and confess to yourself, not me, I am irrelevant. Only then you can start a journey to the truth. Or do you want to be among those hypocrites with pans on their head and a veil over their minds? If the latter is that what you want then do never approach me in discussion anymore. Simply read, refuse to believe, and go back to hole up in your quran alone comfortable cave-world.

[good logic]

Peace Makaveli.
The "pills"(about being logical and getting to the truth) you are trying to give to others who disagree with your view,you are forgetting to take them yourself. Here is an example, quoe from you:

You mean a warmonger who called himself 'rasul-allah' and refused to accept "donations" yet was a first one in a row to greedily grab a "gift"? Because that's what I can find from my research. Did you mean him?

If your logic tells you to believe what you read(without  searching and proving what has been said). How do you know there was such a person as you described above?
You seem to know a lot of things that are kept secret from others. It is therefore impossible to discuss with you since we are ignorant of your knowledge.
Catch 22 if you ask me.
I shall remain asleep and with the flock since I cannot guess your secret knowledge of the roots.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Makaveli]

The "pills"(about being logical and getting to the truth) you are trying to give to others who disagree with your view,you are forgetting to take them yourself. Here is an example, quoe from you:

What can I say? The problem of a completely straightforward logic which lacks basic intuition and fails to follow the slightest and easiest pieces of information sharing called suggestive questions is that which will prevent anyone from getting to know anything farther than their own nose (outside of their small belief system they so tightly uphold).

I shall remain asleep and with the flock since I cannot guess your secret knowledge of the roots.

It seems you truely are barred based on the above non-sensical solution to my earlier question. I mean...there is nothing I can respond anymore based on such a reply. It either is a strong case for backward induction with irrational reasoning or perhaps good logic is a genius troll, which is unlikely for no troll lurks for so long at one place.

[good logic]

Peace Makaveli.
What I am saying to you is simple and straightforward.  It is of no use to anyone if they are going to guess where you get the meaning of the roots from!
Also why is your source of knowledge better than the lexicons and the Arabic dictionaries?
Surely Arabic is not that complicated?
And I am not here to troll nor do I have any other motives besides the motif of sincere and amicable discussions with the brothers and sisters in this forum including yourself.
I do not claim to have the truth . I expect others to check everything I say here and challenge it. I respect everyone s freedom of choice to express their view.
 I am genuinely asking you to provide some source if you want to share it with others . But of course only if you want to.
I was doing the same with my other  brothers and sisters ,for example if you remember Man Of Faith s discussions with me.

I believe Qoran to be the word of GOD, I have my solid proof. I do not expect others to agree with me.
My main source of most of my posts here is Qoran. I have had discussions with you about Qoran as you know.
So I am asking you for your source to check /study it to see its truthfulness.
Thank you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Makaveli]

What I am saying to you is simple and straightforward.  It is of no use to anyone if they are going to guess where you get the meaning of the roots from!

I said nothing about where to get the root meanings from. You've mentioned word 'roots' several time already, as it somehow was my point. Root meaning are archetypal for the most part, yet a root combination from where a word meaning is derived itself is cultural for the most part and is induced by higher religious-linguist authorities, which the Project Root List copies from.

What you are saying is profane and your conclusions come from a complete lack of insight and are based on a 100% straightforward/literal way to receive and handle received information, which your previous post shows, which I could not even reply to due to how it completely missed the point.

Also why is your source of knowledge better than the lexicons and the Arabic dictionaries?

First reply to my questions on Muhammad. I asked you 7 simpliest questions, do not think you have a right to ask anything until you prove your OWN coherent understanding of the book you claim to be divine.

Surely Arabic is not that complicated?

You mean the language forged in 8-9th centuries with 12 additional letters which were never part of original abjad script and loads of loan words and weird grammar rules?

I am genuinely asking you to provide some source if you want to share it with others

I genuinely ask you use common sense, otherwise there is no use of explaining anything.

I believe Qoran to be the word of GOD

So are the Talmud and the Ancient Greek philosophies from where some stories which have made it into the Quran are based on, right (the story of Ibrahim idol shop and the story of Seven Sleepers respectively)?

, I have my solid proof.

The 19 multiplier of the Iinitial Letters?

That is not your "solid proof", it was discovered by someone else you simply eat what you were provided with on your table. Try making a new discovery by first removing a veil which covers your eyes, ears and heart and then start looking for clues.

And what does number 19 mean to you? If you don't know its meaning then it's a worthless knowledge which has not lead you anywhere. What is the meaning of letters themselves? If you do not know the meaning of the letters you calculate, what is the point? 

[good logic]

Peace Makaveli.
All your questions about Mohammed are irrelevant. We have the message ,Qoran make of it what you want.
Fine brother, I will use my common sense which tells me that it will be pointless discussing Qoran with you.
The questions you are asking clearly demonstrate our disagreement on what the book says.

I believe and prove things for me. I have not claimed I have your proof. So I will leave you to make of the book what you wish because I know that you are already familiar with Qoran.

With respect brother, I have seen many turn against Qoran ,go on a goose chase around different philosophies and end up clutching at straws. Like a  mirage.
Or may be I am chasing a mirage?
Best of luck with your truth.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Makaveli]

Peace Makaveli.
All your questions about Mohammed are irrelevant.

So you don't know who Mohammed was? Why are you repeating his name if you do not know who he was? Why are you saying he was a prophet if you can't even describe his historical-cultural or religious identity? So you don't understand the Quran not an ounce? Then what is the point of everything you say and mark as "objective" if there is nothing objective behind your religious faith-induced empty talk?

All right, if these quetions are irrelevant, like you said yourself right now, that means that it is irrelevant to me to disclose anything since doing so would basically be a waste of precious knowledge to waste it for someone who gives up common sense altogether. 

The questions you are asking clearly demonstrate our disagreement on what the book says.

Really? How do I disagree with it? In fact it became my ultimate guidance and everything written in there has a truth. The difference is, however, I could actually understand it and not mindlessly parrot how "divine" and "sacred", the "ultimate revelation" it is. So? What would be your next guess?

I believe and prove things for me. I have not claimed I have your proof. So I will leave you to make of the book what you wish because I know that you are already familiar with Qoran.

That's a flock of sheep that makes a book what their leaders wish it to be, not me.

I have seen many turn against Qoran

So if you can't explain anything in the book you deem as sacred and divine and someone else asks quality questions you can't answer to, does it mean that someone is automatically turning against the Qur'an? Is that which you call objective and fact-checking?