Author Topic: TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM.  (Read 7467 times)

ajzhyder

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Re: TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM.
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2018, 07:38:14 PM »
[/size

you say that there is a Y on top of ibrahm or abrahm in Chapter 2,these marks and diacritics are not considered added letters they are just to guide people into pronunciations of words and how they sound. in chapter 2 there is no 'ya" ي with 2 dots on bottom which is why its spelt as ibrahm abrahm. while it's spelt with two dots in the other chapters that he is mentioned in which makes it IBRAHEEM. READ THE TWO DIFFERENT NAMES WITHOUT THE ADDED MARKS AND DIACRITICS thats how i noticed the difference to begin with.

Abraham without the ي is only found in SURAH AL BAQARAH and Ibraheem with a ي is in every other surah i stated.
 

Salam
Whats your understanding of implications of these two different spellings of Ibrahim in Quran.
Sura 2, can be considered as earlier pages of Quran in which the spelling is different than later Suras. The earlier pages of Ibrahim are referred as 'Suhuf ul Oola' in 86:18-19. However, not sure what the implication could be. Will appreciate if you have done some work on it, which you can share.

ibn_a

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Re: TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM.
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2018, 11:09:43 PM »
Salaam,





They did it 100+ years later; how many examples old manuscripts do you need -- one should suffice?

Sana manuscript 2nd century!







Could you post a link of this manuscript,  thanks in advance.



Noon waalqalami

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Re: TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM.
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2018, 12:00:47 AM »
Could you post a link of this manuscript,  thanks in advance.

Sana'a manuscripts (UNESCO) downloaded they took it down (see page 111)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AqCXcBIkF3fq4RfDVUc3w3aeqzBZUFie/view

peace

ibn_a

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Re: TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM.
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2018, 12:14:42 AM »
Salaam,


Sana'a manuscripts (UNESCO) downloaded they took it down (see page 111)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AqCXcBIkF3fq4RfDVUc3w3aeqzBZUFie/view

peace

Thanks.

ibn_a

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Re: TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM.
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2018, 12:05:54 AM »
Salaam,


IN THE HOLY QURAN I HAD NOTICED AND LATER RESEARCHED THAT ONLY IN SURAH AL-BAQARAH IBRAHEEM IS SPELLED AS (ABRAHAAM) WHILST IN THE OTHER SURAH'S HE IS ONLY MENTIONED AS IBRAHEEM. THERE IS A CLEAR DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BOTH STAGES I FIND THIS INTEREESTING.

-This  particular spelling of the word Ibraheem   ابرهم   without  ى  (ya) in chapter 2  is the case in the " Hafs reading (qira'at Hafs)". (the majority of muslims 95 % follow  this recitation)

 - In the " Warsh reading (qira'at  Warsh)",  the word Ibraheem   ابرهىم is spelled with ى  (ya)  in all occurrences. (About 3 %of muslims follow this recitation)

Some opinions about the qira'at (reading, recitation) :
http://quransmessage.com/articles/seven%20readings%20FM3.htm
https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/qiraat/hafs.html

Warsh recitation with English translation:
http://www.quranflash.com/books/Warsh1/?en#sthash.aRVhBOGN.SctN6kSh.dpbs







Peace, in oldest manuscripts spelled same with ى (ya) e.g. 2:260:3 ابرهىم Ibrahim ا ب ر ه ى م

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/260?handschrift=163



- This manuscript shows more resemblance with  the Warsh reading (qira'at  Warsh)", 
I have verified  the spelling of some words in this manuscript which are different between Warsh and Hafs.


https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/128/handschrift/163
2:132
Manuscript: last line :  واوصي            Warsh:   واوصي              Hafs: ووصي
__________________________________


https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/5/vers/53/handschrift/163
5:53
Manuscript: line 4 :  يقول               Warsh:   يقول             Hafs: ويقول
----------
5:54
Manuscript: line 7 :  يرتد د              Warsh:   يرتد د            Hafs: يرتد
__________________________________


https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/9/vers/107/handschrift/163
9:107
Manuscript: line 4 :  الذين             Warsh:   الذين            Hafs: والذين
__________________________________


https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/18/vers/36/handschrift/163
18:36
Manuscript: line 10 :   منهما            Warsh:      منهما           Hafs:     منها
__________________________________


https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/72/vers/16?handschrift=163
72:16
Manuscript: line 21 : وان لو            Warsh:   وان لو           Hafs: والو
__________________________________



- Other manuscripts  shows more resemblance with the  Hafs reading (qira'at Hafs)".
Example, this manuscript:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=418009;topic=9610294.0
--------------

This is my understanding so far, i could be wrong.


------------------------------------



The most important is what God says about the preservation of the Qur'an:

LiteralWord by Word:

15:9    Indeed, We We have sent down the Reminder, and indeed, We of it (are) surely Guardians.

41:41  Indeed, those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it comes to them. And indeed, it (is) surely a Book mighty.
41:42  Not comes to it the falsehood from before it and not from behind it. A Revelation from (the) All-Wise, (the) Praiseworthy.


85:21 Nay! It (is) a Quran Glorious,
85:22 In a Tablet, Guarded.
--------------------

Muhammad Asad:

15:9    Behold, it is We Ourselves who have bestowed from on high, step by step, this reminder? and, behold, it is We who shall truly guard it [from all corruption].

41:41 Verily, they who are bent on denying the truth of this reminder as soon as it comes to them - [they are the losers]: for, behold, it is a sublime divine writ:
41:42  no falsehood can ever attain to it openly, and neither in a stealthy manner, [since it is] bestowed from on high by One who is truly wise, ever to be praised.

 
85:21  Nay, but this [divine writ which they reject] is a discourse sublime,
85:22  upon an imperishable tablet [inscribed].
----------------------

M. M. Pickthall:

15:9    Lo! We, even We, reveal the Reminder, and lo! We verily are its Guardian.

41:41  Lo! those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it cometh unto them (are guilty), for lo! it is an unassailable Scripture.
41:42  Falsehood cannot come at it from before it or from behind it. (It is) a revelation from the Wise, the Owner of Praise

85:21  Nay, but it is a glorious Qur'an.
85:22  On a guarded tablet.
-----------------------

Yusuf Ali:

15:9    We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

41:41  Those who reject the Message when it comes to them (are not hidden from Us). And indeed it is a Book of exalted power.
41:42  No falsehood can approach it from before or behind it: It is sent down by One Full of Wisdom, Worthy of all Praise.

85:21  Day, this is a Glorious Qur'an,
85:22  (Inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved!




Noon waalqalami

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Re: TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM.
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2018, 11:12:28 AM »
Salaam,


-This  particular spelling of the word Ibraheem   ابرهم   without  ى  (ya) in chapter 2  is the case in the " Hafs reading (qira'at Hafs)". (the majority of muslims 95 % follow  this recitation)

 - In the " Warsh reading (qira'at  Warsh)",  the word Ibraheem   ابرهىم is spelled with ى  (ya)  in all occurrences. (About 3 %of muslims follow this recitation)

Some opinions about the qira'at (reading, recitation) :
http://quransmessage.com/articles/seven%20readings%20FM3.htm
https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/qiraat/hafs.html

Warsh recitation with English translation:
http://www.quranflash.com/books/Warsh1/?en#sthash.aRVhBOGN.SctN6kSh.dpbs

- This manuscript shows more resemblance with  the Warsh reading (qira'at  Warsh)", 
I have verified  the spelling of some words in this manuscript which are different between Warsh and Hafs.

Peace -- not sure when Warsh/Hafs (7) revelations absurdness started and trust the oldest.

99.99999% of majority is clueless e.g. meaning of kalala or son/s get 2x the daughter, etc.

ibn_a

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Re: TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM.
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2018, 08:19:59 AM »
Salaam,



Peace -- not sure when Warsh/Hafs (7) revelations absurdness started and trust the oldest.

99.99999% of majority is clueless e.g. meaning of kalala or son/s get 2x the daughter, etc.

Why not start a topic to explain ?

ibn_a

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Re: TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM.
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2019, 11:23:01 PM »
Salaam,



This is a part of your post from:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610157.msg424062#msg424062


...  likewise ا ب ره ى م Abraham consistently spelled in every chapter then ~100-150 years later there was a revision, numerous alif's added, verses rearranged, etc.

Peace Noon,

In this manuscript( arabe331) and before what you call "  ...~100-150 years later... "
the name Abraham  ابرهم   is spelled without the letter "ya ي" in chapter 2 in 12 occurrences and in one occurrence Abraham    ابرهيم with "ya ي"

In other chapters the name Abraham is spelled with the letter "ya ي" in 3 occurrences and without the letter "ya ي"  in 2 occurrences

The rest of the manuscript ( Marcel 3, A 6959 + A 6990, E16264 R) is not available online(afaik) to verify the other occurrences of the name Abraham, and (Ms. Leiden Or. 14.545b + Or. 14.545c) don't contain the name Abraham.



More information about this manuscript:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date

    1st century of hijra.

    Noseda included this manuscript in his table of ḥijāzī manuscripts from 1st century hijra. Giving information about a ḥijāzī manuscript kept at the Universiteitsbibliothek Leida (i.e., University Library, Lieden), he does not mark any dash to indicate the contents of the manuscript.[1] One may surmise that perhaps Noseda had only limited information concerning this manuscript at the time of writing and made note of the existence of the manuscript. However, it was Nabia Abbott in 1939, who first classified two folios from this codex at the Oriental Institute, Chicago, to be from 1st/2nd century AH.[2]

    Originally believed to date from the latter part of the eight century, the folio of MS Leiden Or. 14.545b has now been subject to radiocarbon analysis under the auspices of the Corpus Coranicum project and has been dated to 652-763 CE with 95.4% probability, with that range being broken down into a 89.3% probability that it dates to between 652 and 694 CE and a 6.1% probability that it dates to between 747 and 763 CE.[3]

Size & Folios

    41.3 cm x 34.8 cm. There are 19 lines per page. Manuscript on parchment.

    This manuscript has 87 folios = 56 (Arabe 331, Biblioth?que Nationale, Paris)[4] + 26 (Marcel 3, National Library of Russia, St. Petersburg) + 2 (Ms. Leiden Or. 14.545b + Or. 14.545c, University Library, Leiden)[5] + 2 (A 6959 + A 6990, Oriental Institute, Chicago)[6] + 1 (E16264 R, University of Pennsylvania Museum). The extant folios contain ~28.5% of the text of the Qur'an.
....
https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/mss/arabe331.html


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Manuscript( arabe331)

Chapter 2 :

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/125/handschrift/32
 ابرهم   





https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/133/handschrift/32
ابرهيم ... ابرهم... ابرهم





https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/180/handschrift/32/flip/1
ابرهم   





https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/258/handschrift/32
ابرهم   





Other chapters:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/15/vers/51/handschrift/32
ابرهيم





https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/16/vers/120/handschrift/32
ابرهم   





https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/51/vers/24/handschrift/32
ابرهيم





https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/53/vers/37/handschrift/32
ابرهيم





https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/57/vers/26/handschrift/32
ابرهم   




والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


..............................................................................

Noon waalqalami

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Re: TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM.
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2019, 11:24:37 AM »
Corpus Coranicum project and has been dated to 652-763 CE with 95.4% probability[/b]

peace, again use "the oldest" manuscripts e.g. this one spread across two libraries.

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=281

Birmingham, Cadbury Research Library (University of Birmingham): Islamic Arabic 1572
9 sheets - 33.3 x 24.5 cm.mm - fol. 1 and 7 (= 1572a): 568-645, σ2 (95.4%) [?⁴C dating by Cadbury Research Library]; fol. 2-6, 8 and 9 (= 1572b): before 750 (?) Parchment - Cadbury Research Library (University of Birmingham) (Birmingham, UK) - 004: 129-004: 152; 004: 153-005: 027; 006: 074-006: 122; 006: 122-006: 143; 018: 017-018: 031; 019: 091-020: 030 - 22-30 lines

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/11/vers/75?handschrift=158

Paris, National Library of France: Arabic 328 (c)
16 sheets - 333x245mm - Radiocarbon measurement of the Birmingham Fragment Islamic Arabic 1572 (a), originally from the same code: 568-645 CE (95.4%) - parchment - Biblioth?que nationale de France (Paris, FR) - 010 : 035: 009-010: 048: 007; 010: 049: 000-011: 110: 000; 020: 099: 000-020: 113: 000; 020: 117: 000-020: 128: 000; 020: 131 : 000-022: 058: 000; 022: 062: 000-023: 027: 000 - 24-25 lines



ibn_a

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Re: TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM.
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2019, 08:54:57 AM »
Salaam,


peace, again use "the oldest" manuscripts e.g. this one spread across two libraries.

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=281

Birmingham, Cadbury Research Library (University of Birmingham): Islamic Arabic 1572
9 sheets - 33.3 x 24.5 cm.mm - fol. 1 and 7 (= 1572a): 568-645, σ2 (95.4%) [?⁴C dating by Cadbury Research Library]; fol. 2-6, 8 and 9 (= 1572b): before 750 (?) Parchment - Cadbury Research Library (University of Birmingham) (Birmingham, UK) - 004: 129-004: 152; 004: 153-005: 027; 006: 074-006: 122; 006: 122-006: 143; 018: 017-018: 031; 019: 091-020: 030 - 22-30 lines

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/11/vers/75?handschrift=158

Paris, National Library of France: Arabic 328 (c)
16 sheets - 333x245mm - Radiocarbon measurement of the Birmingham Fragment Islamic Arabic 1572 (a), originally from the same code: 568-645 CE (95.4%) - parchment - Biblioth?que nationale de France (Paris, FR) - 010 : 035: 009-010: 048: 007; 010: 049: 000-011: 110: 000; 020: 099: 000-020: 113: 000; 020: 117: 000-020: 128: 000; 020: 131 : 000-022: 058: 000; 022: 062: 000-023: 027: 000 - 24-25 lines



Peace Noon,

Topic is about the spelling of the name "Abraham" ابرهم  in chapter 2.
The manuscript you posted does not contain chapter 2.