Author Topic: Salat Fajr question  (Read 515 times)

shakeel

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Salat Fajr question
« on: July 20, 2018, 01:17:32 PM »
Just started praying back again, after leaving islam for good for a while. have many doubts regarding many things, but that' for another time.
My question is the following:
Following Quran alone, is Fajr prayer witnessed...ect. in other ways, according to Quran alone, how important is it to make Fajr prayer on time and does Quran mention anything about making Fajr at the mosque and how important that is?

Thank you guys

Novice

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Re: Salat Fajr question
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2018, 01:28:14 PM »
Just started praying back again, after leaving islam for good for a while. have many doubts regarding many things, but that' for another time.
My question is the following:
Following Quran alone, is Fajr prayer witnessed...ect. in other ways, according to Quran alone, how important is it to make Fajr prayer on time and does Quran mention anything about making Fajr at the mosque and how important that is?

Thank you guys

Quran is a book of guidance to go through this life. It does not give details of your rituals. You can follow your rituals by following your chosen/accepted imam but not Quran.

Salaam

Wakas

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Re: Salat Fajr question
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2018, 02:53:43 PM »
I recommend using the forum search function or study tools at www.StudyQuran.org

e.g.
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.0
http://www.quranix.org/s/fajr
etc.

Best thing to do is read what Quran says about it.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

shakeel

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Re: Salat Fajr question
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2018, 03:18:18 PM »
@Wakas,
Thank you for the links.

coeurame

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Re: Salat Fajr question
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2018, 06:51:56 AM »
Peace shakeel,

Alhamdulillah.

Here are a couple of verses to reflect on:
17:78
24:58

Hope this helps you get started in your research :)
"Surely, human was created fretful. When evil visits him, impatient. And when good visits him, grudging. Except for those who pray the ones who are consistent with their prayers." (70:19-23)

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Re: Salat Fajr question
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2018, 12:40:15 PM »
While reflecting on the suggested verses by coeurame please consider following:

The part of the verse لِدُلُوكِ ٱلشَّمۡسِ means different for different translators. However no one has explained why they have ignored "LI" in the start of this phrase which most commonly means "FOR". So أَقِمِ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ here is "for duluki shams and not "From or at" duluki shams.

Also not all translators have agreed upon the meaning of "DULUK". I have quoted some popular translations showing how they have translated "LI" and "DULUK" in tis verse.


17:78
أَقِمِ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ لِدُلُوكِ ٱلشَّمۡسِ إِلَىٰ غَسَقِ ٱلَّيۡلِ وَقُرۡءَانَ ٱلۡفَجۡرِ‌ۖ إِنَّ قُرۡءَانَ ٱلۡفَجۡرِ كَانَ مَشۡہُودً۬ا (٧٨) 
Yousuf Ali:
Establish regular prayers at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading: for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony. (78)

Pickthal:
Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn. Lo! (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn is ever witnessed. (78)

The Monotheist Group (The Quran: A Monotheist Translation)
17:78 Hold the contact prayer till the setting of the sun; to the murkiness of the night; and the Qur'an at dawn - the Qur'an at dawn is witnessed.

Muhammad Asad (The Message Of Quran)
17:78 BE CONSTANT in [thy] prayer from the time when the sun has passed its zenith till the darkness of night, and [be ever mindful of its] recitation at dawn:95 for, behold, the recitation [of prayer] at dawn is indeed witnessed [by all that is holy].

Rilum

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Re: Salat Fajr question
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2018, 01:25:07 PM »
Salaam,

I guess Wakas' links will help you out. Corpus Quran is maybe also a good tool.

To your question "how important is it to make Fajr prayer on time":

4:103 (The Monotheist Group Quran Translation) Then, if you have completed the contact prayer, remember God while standing, or sitting, or on your sides. Then, if you are secure, hold the contact prayer. Indeed, the contact prayer for the believers is a Book that is scheduled.

Salaam.

NewFrenzy

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Re: Salat Fajr question
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2018, 01:50:51 AM »
While reflecting on the suggested verses by coeurame please consider following:

The part of the verse لِدُلُوكِ ٱلشَّمۡسِ means different for different translators. However no one has explained why they have ignored "LI" in the start of this phrase which most commonly means "FOR". So أَقِمِ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ here is "for duluki shams and not "From or at" duluki shams.

Also not all translators have agreed upon the meaning of "DULUK". I have quoted some popular translations showing how they have translated "LI" and "DULUK" in tis verse.


17:78
أَقِمِ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ لِدُلُوكِ ٱلشَّمۡسِ إِلَىٰ غَسَقِ ٱلَّيۡلِ وَقُرۡءَانَ ٱلۡفَجۡرِ‌ۖ إِنَّ قُرۡءَانَ ٱلۡفَجۡرِ كَانَ مَشۡہُودً۬ا (٧٨) 
Yousuf Ali:
Establish regular prayers at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading: for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony. (78)

Pickthal:
Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn. Lo! (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn is ever witnessed. (78)

The Monotheist Group (The Quran: A Monotheist Translation)
17:78 Hold the contact prayer till the setting of the sun; to the murkiness of the night; and the Qur'an at dawn - the Qur'an at dawn is witnessed.

Muhammad Asad (The Message Of Quran)
17:78 BE CONSTANT in [thy] prayer from the time when the sun has passed its zenith till the darkness of night, and [be ever mindful of its] recitation at dawn:95 for, behold, the recitation [of prayer] at dawn is indeed witnessed [by all that is holy].

Mazhar has not ignored it,
@Novice we should ignore these filthy mainstream translations (translated by ignorents) instead focus on haqeeqat.pk translation.

You the Messenger [Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam] organize-maintain the assembly for Ass-sa'laat: Protocol of Servitude and allegiance for the point in time of smooth declining and disappearing  of the Sun up to the boundary of night getting cool and darker.
And accomplish compiling the Book at the time of true dawn;
It is a fact that the compilation of the book at true dawn to rising of the Sun has been a witnessed affair. [17:78]

Salaam,

I guess Wakas' links will help you out. Corpus Quran is maybe also a good tool.

To your question "how important is it to make Fajr prayer on time":

4:103 (The Monotheist Group Quran Translation) Then, if you have completed the contact prayer, remember God while standing, or sitting, or on your sides. Then, if you are secure, hold the contact prayer. Indeed, the contact prayer for the believers is a Book that is scheduled.

Salaam.
I would recommend this detailed translation. If you are not aware of it please head to http://haqeeqat.pk/Word%20by%20Word.htm

Thereat when you have finished the congregational Ass-sa'laat: the Protocol of Servitude and Allegiance; thereat you people remember Allah the Exalted all the time while standing and sitting and when you are lying-reclining on your sides.

Subject to and consequent upon you getting assured of safety and security: Maintain and organize Ass-sa'laat in regular manner, unlike of the battle field.

The fact about Ass-sa'laat: It has remained prescribed and mandatory for the true believers, characteristically time-bound; scheduled event. [4:103]

Novice

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Re: Salat Fajr question
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2018, 11:41:09 PM »
Mazhar has not ignored it,
@Novice we should ignore these filthy mainstream translations (translated by ignorents) instead focus on haqeeqat.pk translation.

Alhamdolillah I do not need translations. Since you are promoting haqeeqat.pk translation, let me ask, do you have the ability to verify it with Quraan?

Let me mark in red what is not in the verse:

You the Messenger [Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam] organize-maintain the assembly for Ass-sa'laat: Protocol of Servitude and allegiance for the point in time of smooth declining and disappearing  of the Sun up to theboundary of night getting cool and darker.
And accomplish compiling the Book at the time of true dawn;
It is a fact that the compilation of the book at true dawn to rising of the Sun has been a witnessed affair. [17:78][/color]

What is left after ignoring extra wording is:

organize-maintain Ass-sa'laat for declining of the sun to night getting cool and darker. (Quraan of) dawn is witnessed.

What does it mean?














good logic

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Re: Salat Fajr question
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2018, 02:32:24 AM »
Exactly brother Novice. This is what I keep telling brother Mazhar all these years! Use Qoran Alone as criteria!
And What does "Salla Allah Alaihi Wa sallam" mean? If you analyse it ,there is no meaning to it!!!! What are we asking GOD to do? Parrot the words on the nabi?
I also gave him my take on it, when the nabi was alive GOD was "Yusalli Alaihi" -Supporting him, and GOD is asking the believers of the nabi time to support him as well and submit to GOD properly-in words and deeds-!!!!
Brother Mazhar should know that most of the verses where the nabi is mentioned was meant for him and the believers at that time,like "do not raise your voice above that of the nabi..."
But brother Mazhar-with all the other clever stuff he seems to be doing- will not have it. It is as though his logic goes missing when the nabi is mentioned.
But we keep on digging for the truth brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say: I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

NewFrenzy

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Re: Salat Fajr question
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2018, 04:05:10 AM »
Exactly brother Novice. This is what I keep telling brother Mazhar all these years! Use Qoran Alone as criteria!
And What does "Salla Allah Alaihi Wa sallam" mean? If you analyse it ,there is no meaning to it!!!! What are we asking GOD to do? Parrot the words on the nabi?
I also gave him my take on it, when the nabi was alive GOD was "Yusalli Alaihi" -Supporting him, and GOD is asking the believers of the nabi time to support him as well and submit to GOD properly-in words and deeds-!!!!
Brother Mazhar should know that most of the verses where the nabi is mentioned was meant for him and the believers at that time,like "do not raise your voice above that of the nabi..."
But brother Mazhar-with all the other clever stuff he seems to be doing- will not have it. It is as though his logic goes missing when the nabi is mentioned.
But we keep on digging for the truth brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
This does not work .so the angels called him while he was standing in support in the chamber .

People's mazhar has spended 20+ years studying the Quran , Arabic so he translate with academics rules,

Do you think God does not exit ? Do you think God has misguided him 20 years learning Quran using Arabic rules and Allah wasted his 20 years wandering.

20 years asking for guidance


(Some thoughts)
sending a book which does not have guidance or laws for everything does not make sense ( to me)
Giving chance for man mad rules does not make sense.

Why God did not prescribed cure/medicines for diseases in Quran instead left us human to make man made rules and medicines (like if you eat x you will get cancar...)

Why not humans make rules regarding punishments, marriage, divorce, food drinks, inheritance etc too

Why God gave us a brain mind reasoning power?

Evolution Continues.

good logic

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Re: Salat Fajr question
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2018, 11:29:36 AM »
Peace NewFrenzy
So you think GOD does salawat on the nabi? Please tell us how? Does it include bowing and prostrating?
Also you are bringing a different "yasalli" verse about Zaccariah!!! Zaccariah was himself "Yusalli" not GOD and His Angels were "yusallun"!!!
Come on brother, give us your take on "Salla Allah Alaihi Wa Sallam", what does it mean?

As for twenty years studying Qoran, having your own motives and aims have nothing to do with outcomes. It is not how long ,it is the "fruit" of your labour and intentions that count not the years.
I do not know brother Mazhar aims and intentions, I give him the benefit of the doubt ,but I know for sure the term "Salla Allah Alaihi Wa Sallam" on the nabi is nonsense. It has no meaning apart from thinking they are praising him when in fact they are wasting their time and effort. GOD Alone should get all the praises.
GOD bless you.
Peace
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say: I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

NewFrenzy

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Re: Salat Fajr question
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2018, 12:25:16 PM »
Peace NewFrenzy
So you think GOD does salawat on the nabi? Please tell us how? Does it include bowing and prostrating?
Also you are bringing a different "yasalli" verse about Zaccariah!!! Zaccariah was himself "Yusalli" not GOD and His Angels were "yusallun"!!!
Come on brother, give us your take on "Salla Allah Alaihi Wa Sallam", what does it mean?

As for twenty years studying Qoran, having your own motives and aims have nothing to do with outcomes. It is not how long ,it is the "fruit" of your labour and intentions that count not the years.
I do not know brother Mazhar aims and intentions, I give him the benefit of the doubt ,but I know for sure the term "Salla Allah Alaihi Wa Sallam" on the nabi is nonsense. It has no meaning apart from thinking they are praising him when in fact they are wasting their time and effort. GOD Alone should get all the praises.
GOD bless you.
Peace
For support Quran uses
 Alif-Ya-Dal = to support/strengthen/confirm
For blessing Quran usess
ب ر ك = Ba-Ra-Kaf =

So my take is everyone is wrong. But as far I recall general meaning of that is "Allah send peace and blessings upon him"(who is already blessed and on peace).

 I have not read your page only because you establish prayer instead salat , I used to dislike the webpages that promote salat = prayer because I m very lazy to to pray as God says it's a burden for most people's except the humble one.
So I have now started to humble my self so I visited haqeeqat.pk to learn about salat and I found that it's 5 salats .now I will look your stuffs.
Someone should be rightly guided.
I know factszzz word press site they spend 30years learning Quran with the intention of salat = establishment of divine commandments so may be mazhar intentions was prove most traditional practices valid through academics.(but that's not true)

Anyways good logic this "God bless you" thing is also nonsense.

Wakas

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Re: Salat Fajr question
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2018, 01:35:48 PM »

So I have now started to humble my self so I visited haqeeqat.pk to learn about salat and I found that it's 5 salats

I recommend:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605766.msg336182#msg336182
and
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Novice

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Re: Salat Fajr question
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2018, 03:24:30 PM »
For support Quran uses
 Alif-Ya-Dal = to support/strengthen/confirm
For blessing Quran usess
ب ر ك = Ba-Ra-Kaf =

So my take is everyone is wrong. But as far I recall general meaning of that is "Allah send peace and blessings upon him"(who is already blessed and on peace).

ص ل و root means to follow closely.
In Arabic we cannot ignore the root meanings for the words made from that root.

God has no needs so
Why you have to do actions in a sequence and for certain numbers?
If "sajada" is physical prostration then why two times in one unit of ritual prayer and why 2,3 or 4 units in one ritual prayer?
Why verses given by God are recited back to Him in ritual prayer?

There are so many things to consider before making salat = ritual prayer.

All religions have their rituals and their followers get some kind of mental satisfaction from them but does that means God asked them to do those rituals?

If you want to practice ritual prayer as a Muslim culture thing, no problem do practice it and make yourself comfortable with it. But I could not find the ritual prayer as practiced by Muslim in Quran.

Anyways good logic this "God bless you" thing is also nonsense.

I don't think so because what I have learned from his posts he seems to have an honest heart. He just sent a sincere wish to you. For sure all blessings are from God.

Novice

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Re: Salat Fajr question
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2018, 03:53:16 PM »
Exactly brother Novice. This is what I keep telling brother Mazhar all these years! Use Qoran Alone as criteria!
And What does "Salla Allah Alaihi Wa sallam" mean? If you analyse it ,there is no meaning to it!!!! What are we asking GOD to do? Parrot the words on the nabi?
I also gave him my take on it, when the nabi was alive GOD was "Yusalli Alaihi" -Supporting him, and GOD is asking the believers of the nabi time to support him as well and submit to GOD properly-in words and deeds-!!!!
Brother Mazhar should know that most of the verses where the nabi is mentioned was meant for him and the believers at that time,like "do not raise your voice above that of the nabi..."
But brother Mazhar-with all the other clever stuff he seems to be doing- will not have it. It is as though his logic goes missing when the nabi is mentioned.
But we keep on digging for the truth brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Salaam Brother GL

Brother Mazhar has been working hard as is evident from his web site. Sometimes we do not challenge the philosophies we are born into. That is why Quran is "Furqan" a criteria to judge everything. Man made shariah and scholarly explanations has to be verified with this Furqan. I learn a lot from scholars but only after I get satisfied that what they claim is verifiable from Quran. So we have to dig out the truth by verifying it with Quraan.

I believe that the guidance given in Quran to the mankind has to be simple enough to understand. It should not rely upon scholar's complicated wording. God declares it simple to understand but scholars make it difficult by trying to prove that they know the best.

In their race to prove they are the best they start wrapping simple Quranic verses with their extended explanations. Thus declaring that common man cannot understand Quran without scholars. Clergy has always played its role in suppressing masses for obvious reasons.

May God help us in understanding His message in its purest form.

abdouallahi

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Re: Salat Fajr question
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2018, 02:56:07 AM »
Quran is a book of guidance to go through this life. It does not give details of your rituals. You can follow your rituals by following your chosen/accepted imam but not Quran.

Salaam
salem

On the contrary the Koran is mentioned all things in detail  allah said : And everything We have set out in detail. (17:12) and said : We have not neglected in the Koran a thing. (6:38) what we have left is to read the Quran carefully since there are all in detail allah we did not order to follow people but he ordered us to follow his book the quran allah said : And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing." Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided? (2:170)

Novice

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Re: Salat Fajr question
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2018, 05:28:01 PM »
salem

On the contrary the Koran is mentioned all things in detail  allah said : And everything We have set out in detail. (17:12) and said : We have not neglected in the Koran a thing. (6:38) what we have left is to read the Quran carefully since there are all in detail allah we did not order to follow people but he ordered us to follow his book the quran allah said : And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing." Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided? (2:170)

Where is detail about your prayer ritual in Quran?

2:170
وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمُ ٱتَّبِعُواْ مَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ قَالُواْ بَلۡ نَتَّبِعُ مَآ أَلۡفَيۡنَا عَلَيۡهِ ءَابَآءَنَآ‌ۗ أَوَلَوۡ كَانَ ءَابَآؤُهُمۡ لَا يَعۡقِلُونَ شَيۡـًٔ۬ا وَلَا يَهۡتَدُونَ

That is exactly what people do when they follow their imams and practice rituals which are not given in Quran.