Author Topic: Quran strongly implies the 4 inviolable months are consecutive  (Read 7929 times)

brook

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Karma +1/-0
Re: Quran strongly implies the 4 inviolable months are consecutive
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2019, 08:06:48 AM »
We know that the moon makes 12/13 revolutions around the earth
producing 12/13 full moons
from a particular time like the summer solstice to the next.

The question that comes to my mind is
what did the Arabs call the 13th full moon
in Prophet Muhammad's time?

http://astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases0601.html

01 -> Jun 02, 619: Ramadan
02 -> Aug 01, 619: ...
03 -> Aug 30, 619: ...
04 -> Sep 29, 619: ...
05 -> Oct 28, 619: ...
06 -> Nov 27, 619: ...
07 -> Dec 26, 619: ...
08 -> Jan. 25, 620: ...
09 -> Feb 23, 620: ...
10 -> Mar 24, 620: ...
11 -> Apr. 22, 620: ...
12 -> May 22, 620: ...
13 -> Jun. 20, 620: ?

01 -> Jul 20, 620: Ramadan
.......

The question is related to what extent the 12-moon lunar year can be taken seriously,
according to which the 4 restricted full moons are not consecutive.

Mohammed.

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 142
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Quran strongly implies the 4 inviolable months are consecutive
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2019, 08:51:24 AM »
Peace,

In addition, the 4 restricted full moons/months can be in between winter and spring season.

The surah 106 speaks about travel of quraish in winter and spring (I prefer the meaning 'spring' for the Arabic term ‘saif')

because,
1) Dictionaries show ‘spring or summer' as the meaning of ‘saif'
2) Summer can't be a restricted period since 9:81 speaks about going for fighting in the heat [if this is about fighting the idolaters who broke their treaty, then the time prior to this hot time (i.e. prior to summer) would be al shahr al haram]
3) When it is spring, many animals and birds have their babies, so the ~100 days of restriction can prevent hunting of the pregnant animals (humans can't identify pregnant animals all the time)

And the chapter 106 speaks in such a way that the journey of quraish has some connection with Al Masjid Al Haram, since the chapter mentions Al Masjid Al Haram/Ka3ba, ?this House?, it seems this surah revealed when they are in AMAH, i.e. during a Hajj time. (So in winter they are coming for Hajj and after ~ 100 days in the spring, they return). And Ramadan starts in summer, i.e. after Hajj.

Some translations say there is big fighting in ‘al shahr al haram' (2:217), including the translation of free-minds.org
Qur'an say  ?...say: "Fighting/killing in it (is) big/great, and prevention/obstruction from God's path/way and disbelief with(in) it, and the Masjid the Forbidden/Sacred, and bringing/forcing out its people from it (is) bigger/greater at God, and persecution (is) bigger/greater from the fighting/killing,...?

In this verse the derivatives of root K-B-R come 3 times, and it is clear that the 2nd and 3rd occasions signify a sinful action even though it is not mentioned directly, (i.e. bigger/greater crime/sin). So the first occasion also can interpret in the same way i.e. big/great sin/crime.

Thus fighting/killing in Al Shahr Al Haram is
1) great sin
2) preventing (people) from God's path
3) equivalent to disbelieving in ASAH

Peace

peace,

Also note that in a year among all the 4 seasons, the winter season-because of the significant decrease in temperature-is easily recognizable to everyone irrespective of the age difference i.e. it is a well known season in each year. This we can connect with 2:197, which tells the Hajj is in well known full moons. So the first full moon in winter may mark the beginning of Al Shahr Al Haram.

And people will come for Hajj from distant areas even by walk(22:27) (may take several days/even full moon cycles to reach at Al Masjid Al Haram), this also makes sense that the 4 inviolable full moons should be consecutive.
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Mohammed.

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 142
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Quran strongly implies the 4 inviolable months are consecutive
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2019, 07:58:57 AM »
3) When it is spring, many animals and birds have their babies, so the ~100 days of restriction can prevent hunting of the pregnant animals (humans can't identify pregnant animals all the time)

In other words,

Will a 'true believer' kills/hunts(for food) an animal that is with babies?! I think Never. but as for animals which are in pregnancy period, the case is different -since believers/humans cannot identify them (especially in the initial stages of pregnancy) from animals which are not carrying a developing embryo.
Therefore this would be the restriction period i.e. Al Shahr Al Haram.
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 11305
  • Karma +14/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: Quran strongly implies the 4 inviolable months are consecutive
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2020, 02:01:12 AM »
Some extra points mentioned here:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2677.0

We could be close to solving this as per Quran.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 11305
  • Karma +14/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: Quran strongly implies the 4 inviolable months are consecutive
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2021, 03:33:42 AM »
peace all,

Another significant problem for the traditional Islamic calendar:

9:2 and 9:5 have to be reconciled, as discussed above, but ALSO in 9:3 it clearly states the announcement of treaty acquittal took place on the day of the greatest HaJJ. Now, it doesn't matter what one understands by "day of the greatest HaJJ" but the point is it was announced during a HaJJ period, meaning it is 4 months amnesty from then on.

In the Traditional Islamic calendar the alleged month for HaJJ is the 12th month, meaning 4 months from then would be end of the 3rd month at the earliest, which is well past the "inviolable" months according to the Traditional Islamic calendar (11, 12, 1, 7).

Meaning, there is not one but two significant Quran conflicts for the current Traditional Islamic calendar to solve. It seems to me it's not possible to solve them as per Quran.

1) inviolable months must be consecutive as per Quran
2) Hajj periods mark the beginning of the 4 consecutive inviolable months, as per Quran


This problem seems so obvious so it's likely discussed somewhere in traditions or by clerics. If so, it would be interesting to see what explanations they came up with.

#####

For those who want the above made even clearer, let me clarify. Reading Quran along with Traditional Islamic calendar:

red = inviolable months according to Traditional Islamic calendar

months
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 treaty acquittal announcement takes place (during HaJJ)
Quran says to those whom the treaty was broken with to roam the land for 4 months (i.e. amnesty)
Quran says when the inviolable months are passed then you can fight them etc.
1
2 (9:5 says you can fight them now, 9:2 says you have to wait 4 months = choosing one will violate the other, resulting in contradiction)
3 (if you wait 4 months and fight from now, as per 9:2, you will contradict 9:5 which says you can fight after inviolable months = choosing one will violate the other, resulting contradiction)
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12

 

In addition to the above: 9:5 uses the plural ashhur (months/full-moons/lunar-cycles) meaning 3+ (Arabic plural means 3 or more).

In other words, 3+ inviolable months have to pass before fighting is allowed BUT the announcement was made during HaJJ (which occurs in the 12th month according to the Traditional calendar) so 3+ inviolable months after that does not fit.

Note: according to traditional Islamic calendar the inviolable/sacred months are 11, 12, 1 and 7.


Is the Traditional Islamic calendar now refuted beyond doubt?

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 5513
  • Karma +6/-2
Re: Quran strongly implies the 4 inviolable months are consecutive
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2021, 06:08:07 AM »
This also has a different view:
https://submission.org/Four_Sacred_Months.html

GOD bless.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/