Author Topic: Quran strongly implies the 4 inviolable months are consecutive  (Read 5962 times)

Wakas

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Re: Quran strongly implies the 4 inviolable months are consecutive
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2018, 02:01:33 PM »
peace all,

Another significant problem for the traditional Islamic calendar:

9:2 and 9:5 have to be reconciled, as discussed above, but ALSO in 9:3 it clearly states the announcement of treaty acquittal took place on the day of the greatest HaJJ. Now, it doesn't matter what one understands by "day of the greatest HaJJ" but the point is it was announced during a HaJJ period, meaning it is 4 months amnesty from then on.

In the Traditional Islamic calendar the alleged month for HaJJ is the 12th month, meaning 4 months from then would be end of the 3rd month at the earliest, which is well past the "inviolable" months according to the Traditional Islamic calendar (11, 12, 1, 7).

Meaning, there is not one but two significant Quran conflicts for the current Traditional Islamic calendar to solve. It seems to me it's not possible to solve them as per Quran.

1) inviolable months must be consecutive as per Quran
2) Hajj periods mark the beginning of the 4 consecutive inviolable months, as per Quran


This problem seems so obvious so it's likely discussed somewhere in traditions or by clerics. If so, it would be interesting to see what explanations they came up with.

#####

For those who want the above made even clearer, let me clarify. Reading Quran along with Traditional Islamic calendar:

red = inviolable months according to Traditional Islamic calendar

months
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 treaty acquittal announcement takes place (during HaJJ)
Quran says to those whom the treaty was broken with to roam the land for 4 months (i.e. amnesty)
Quran says when the inviolable months are passed then you can fight them etc.
1
2 (9:5 says you can fight them now, 9:2 says you have to wait 4 months = choosing one will violate the other, resulting in contradiction)
3 (if you wait 4 months and fight from now, as per 9:2, you will contradict 9:5 which says you can fight after inviolable months = choosing one will violate the other, resulting contradiction)
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12

 
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

brook

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Re: Quran strongly implies the 4 inviolable months are consecutive
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2018, 02:23:53 PM »
12 treaty acquittal announcement takes place (during HaJJ)

Peace Wakas.

What you mean by treaty acquittal is actually a ceasefire, which was announced on the very first day of the first inviolable moon (Shahr Ramadan) at Masjidal Haram (9:7). The 4-moon peace period strated from then on.

The greatest hajj took place in the second inviolable moon (Dhul Hijjah). It seems that the believers came to Masjidal Haram as part of their hajj activities and reminded the polytheists there and then of the ceasefire which had been announced the previous moon.

Wakas

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Re: Quran strongly implies the 4 inviolable months are consecutive
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2018, 02:51:23 PM »
peace brook,

Peace Wakas.

What you mean by treaty acquittal is actually is a ceasefire, which was announced on the very first day of the first inviolable moon (Shahr Ramadan) at Masjidal Haram (9:7). The 4-moon peace period strated from then on.

The greated hajj took place in second of the four inviolable moons. It seems that the believers came to Masjidal Haram as part of their hajj activities and reminded the polytheists there and then of the peace treaty which had been announced the previous moon.

Your theory seems speculative/baseless. In terms of evidence I favour my theory.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

brook

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Re: Quran strongly implies the 4 inviolable months are consecutive
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2018, 03:15:42 PM »
peace brook,

Your theory seems speculative/baseless. In terms of evidence I favour my theory.

Peace.

My theory is speculative just as YOURS is Wakas
but mine is based on the words in the verses.

9:7 has the word عهد.
And 9:3 says that Allah and his messenger are immune from making عهد with polytheists
except the عهد which was made at Masjidal Haram.

The terms of the ceasefire (عهد) are as follows:

1.If one of the two sides is attacked from outside, the second side will not help the attacker (9:4).
2.Therefore the two sides will not attack each other during the 4 inviolable moons.
3.The ceasefire is valid for only the inviolable moons (4 initially, 3 from the hajj on); so when they are over, the war will pick up anew (9:5).

brook

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Re: Quran strongly implies the 4 inviolable months are consecutive
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2018, 11:08:26 AM »
11
12 treaty acquittal announcement takes place (during HaJJ)
Quran says to those whom the treaty was broken with to roam the land for 4 months (i.e. amnesty)
Quran says when the inviolable months are passed then you can fight them etc.
1


Please allow me, Quran does not say THAT
but it says,
due to the the treaty (عهد) of the ceasefire which had been accepted at Masjidal Haram (9:7),
the polytheists (and the believers) could safely roam the land for the 4 forbidden moons.

Moreover, the polytheists who had started the war were not granted i.e. amnesty
but they were given respite from the war,
which would start anew when the four-moon period expired (9:5).

*

Supposing it was year 630
which is the same as 2007 according to the metonic cycle,
the times of the 13 moons which عدة الشهور consisted of were as follows (9:36)
https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=2007&country=74:

Jun 04: 13th moon
): the first waxing crescent
O: full moon

The CONSECUTIVE 4-moon ceasefire time
started on Jun 16
and contined until Oct 12.

------- )/O
Jun 16/30, 630 Shahr Ramadan (2:185)
July 15/30, 630 Dhul Hijjah (9:3)
Aug 14/28, 630 Dhul Qaidah (?)
Sep 12/26, 630 Rajab (?)
Oct 12/26, 630
Nov 11/24, 630
Dec 10/24, 630
Jan 09/22, 631
Feb 08/21, 631
Mar 08/21, 631
Apr 07/20, 631
May 06/20, 631
Jun 04/18, 631

Rilum

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Re: Quran strongly implies the 4 inviolable months are consecutive
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2018, 01:27:57 PM »
Peace Wakas,

I am maybe not so sure, when the inviolable months are, and maybe I do not have so much knowledge about this topic, so I will not participate in this discussion anymore.

Salaam.

ayman

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Re: Quran strongly implies the 4 inviolable months are consecutive
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2018, 01:33:54 PM »
1) inviolable months must be consecutive as per Quran
2) Hajj periods mark the beginning of the 4 consecutive inviolable months, as per Quran

Peace brother Wakas,

In addition to your two points about the four inviolable full moons being consecutive, they MUST also occur at the beginning of the year for the simple reason that "nasi'" (the haphazard intercalation every other year) was done at the END of the year to delay the restriction on hunting.

The harvest feast occurs during known harvest full-moons. The first inviolable full moon is for fasting to remind us of the suffering of animals (see fasting prescribed as the only punishment in 5:95 where the hunter "tastes the consequence of his deed". Then the following three full moons are for the harvest feast.

Peace and best wishes,

Ayman 

The Sardar

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Re: Quran strongly implies the 4 inviolable months are consecutive
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2018, 10:22:27 PM »
Brother Ayman! Welcome back.  :welcome: :welcome:

Mohammed.

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Re: Quran strongly implies the 4 inviolable months are consecutive
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2019, 06:36:46 PM »
1) inviolable months must be consecutive as per Quran
2) Hajj periods mark the beginning of the 4 consecutive inviolable months, as per Quran[/b]

Peace,

In addition, the 4 restricted full moons/months can be in between winter and spring season.

The surah 106 speaks about travel of quraish in winter and spring (I prefer the meaning 'spring' for the Arabic term ‘saif')

because,
1) Dictionaries show ‘spring or summer' as the meaning of ‘saif'
2) Summer can't be a restricted period since 9:81 speaks about going for fighting in the heat [if this is about fighting the idolaters who broke their treaty, then the time prior to this hot time (i.e. prior to summer) would be al shahr al haram]
3) When it is spring, many animals and birds have their babies, so the ~100 days of restriction can prevent hunting of the pregnant animals (humans can't identify pregnant animals all the time)

And the chapter 106 speaks in such a way that the journey of quraish has some connection with Al Masjid Al Haram, since the chapter mentions Al Masjid Al Haram/Ka3ba, ?this House?, it seems this surah revealed when they are in AMAH, i.e. during a Hajj time. (So in winter they are coming for Hajj and after ~ 100 days in the spring, they return). And Ramadan starts in summer, i.e. after Hajj.

Some translations say there is big fighting in ‘al shahr al haram' (2:217), including the translation of free-minds.org
Qur'an say  ?...say: "Fighting/killing in it (is) big/great, and prevention/obstruction from God's path/way and disbelief with(in) it, and the Masjid the Forbidden/Sacred, and bringing/forcing out its people from it (is) bigger/greater at God, and persecution (is) bigger/greater from the fighting/killing,...?

In this verse the derivatives of root K-B-R come 3 times, and it is clear that the 2nd and 3rd occasions signify a sinful action even though it is not mentioned directly, (i.e. bigger/greater crime/sin). So the first occasion also can interpret in the same way i.e. big/great sin/crime.

Thus fighting/killing in Al Shahr Al Haram is
1) great sin
2) preventing (people) from God's path
3) equivalent to disbelieving in ASAH

Peace
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Mohammed.

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Re: Quran strongly implies the 4 inviolable months are consecutive
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2019, 06:59:44 PM »
in between winter and spring season.
Sorry for my English, pls read 'within' instead of 'in-between'

Quote
it seems this surah revealed when they are in AMAH, i.e. during a Hajj time.
Not strictly during Hajj time, can also be when they gathered for the prayer

2:217 free-mind's translation

They ask you about the sacred month: "Is there fighting in it?" Say: "Much fighting is in it, and to repel from the path of God and to disbelieve in it, and the Sacred Temple, to drive its inhabitants out from it is far greater with God, and persecution is worse than being killed." And they still will fight you until they turn you back from your system if they are able. And whoever of you turns back from his system, and he dies while disbelieving, then these have nullified their works in this world and the next; these are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide!
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]