Quran strongly implies the 4 inviolable months are consecutive

[brook]

We know that the moon makes 12/13 revolutions around the earth
producing 12/13 full moons
from a particular time like the summer solstice to the next.

The question that comes to my mind is
what did the Arabs call the 13th full moon
in Prophet Muhammad's time?

http://astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases0601.html

01 -> Jun 02, 619: Ramadan
02 -> Aug 01, 619: ...
03 -> Aug 30, 619: ...
04 -> Sep 29, 619: ...
05 -> Oct 28, 619: ...
06 -> Nov 27, 619: ...
07 -> Dec 26, 619: ...
08 -> Jan. 25, 620: ...
09 -> Feb 23, 620: ...
10 -> Mar 24, 620: ...
11 -> Apr. 22, 620: ...
12 -> May 22, 620: ...
13 -> Jun. 20, 620: ?

01 -> Jul 20, 620: Ramadan
.......

The question is related to what extent the 12-moon lunar year can be taken seriously,
according to which the 4 restricted full moons are not consecutive.

[Mohammed.]

Peace,

In addition, the 4 restricted full moons/months can be in between winter and spring season.

The surah 106 speaks about travel of quraish in winter and spring (I prefer the meaning 'spring' for the Arabic term 'saif')

because,
1) Dictionaries show 'spring or summer' as the meaning of 'saif'
2) Summer can't be a restricted period since 9:81 speaks about going for fighting in the heat [if this is about fighting the idolaters who broke their treaty, then the time prior to this hot time (i.e. prior to summer) would be al shahr al haram]
3) When it is spring, many animals and birds have their babies, so the ~100 days of restriction can prevent hunting of the pregnant animals (humans can't identify pregnant animals all the time)

And the chapter 106 speaks in such a way that the journey of quraish has some connection with Al Masjid Al Haram, since the chapter mentions Al Masjid Al Haram/Ka3ba, ?this House?, it seems this surah revealed when they are in AMAH, i.e. during a Hajj time. (So in winter they are coming for Hajj and after ~ 100 days in the spring, they return). And Ramadan starts in summer, i.e. after Hajj.

Some translations say there is big fighting in 'al shahr al haram' (2:217), including the translation of free-minds.org
Qur'an say  ?...say: "Fighting/killing in it (is) big/great, and prevention/obstruction from God's path/way and disbelief with(in) it, and the Masjid the Forbidden/Sacred, and bringing/forcing out its people from it (is) bigger/greater at God, and persecution (is) bigger/greater from the fighting/killing,...?

In this verse the derivatives of root K-B-R come 3 times, and it is clear that the 2nd and 3rd occasions signify a sinful action even though it is not mentioned directly, (i.e. bigger/greater crime/sin). So the first occasion also can interpret in the same way i.e. big/great sin/crime.

Thus fighting/killing in Al Shahr Al Haram is
1) great sin
2) preventing (people) from God's path
3) equivalent to disbelieving in ASAH

Peace

peace,

Also note that in a year among all the 4 seasons, the winter season-because of the significant decrease in temperature-is easily recognizable to everyone irrespective of the age difference i.e. it is a well known season in each year. This we can connect with 2:197, which tells the Hajj is in well known full moons. So the first full moon in winter may mark the beginning of Al Shahr Al Haram.

And people will come for Hajj from distant areas even by walk(22:27) (may take several days/even full moon cycles to reach at Al Masjid Al Haram), this also makes sense that the 4 inviolable full moons should be consecutive.

[Mohammed.]

3) When it is spring, many animals and birds have their babies, so the ~100 days of restriction can prevent hunting of the pregnant animals (humans can't identify pregnant animals all the time)

In other words,

Will a 'true believer' kills/hunts(for food) an animal that is with babies?! I think Never. but as for animals which are in pregnancy period, the case is different -since believers/humans cannot identify them (especially in the initial stages of pregnancy) from animals which are not carrying a developing embryo.
Therefore this would be the restriction period i.e. Al Shahr Al Haram.

[Wakas]

Some extra points mentioned here:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2677.0

We could be close to solving this as per Quran.

[Wakas]

peace all,

Another significant problem for the traditional Islamic calendar:

9:2 and 9:5 have to be reconciled, as discussed above, but ALSO in 9:3 it clearly states the announcement of treaty acquittal took place on the day of the greatest HaJJ. Now, it doesn't matter what one understands by "day of the greatest HaJJ" but the point is it was announced during a HaJJ period, meaning it is 4 months amnesty from then on.

In the Traditional Islamic calendar the alleged month for HaJJ is the 12th month, meaning 4 months from then would be end of the 3rd month at the earliest, which is well past the "inviolable" months according to the Traditional Islamic calendar (11, 12, 1, 7).

Meaning, there is not one but two significant Quran conflicts for the current Traditional Islamic calendar to solve. It seems to me it's not possible to solve them as per Quran.

1) inviolable months must be consecutive as per Quran
2) Hajj periods mark the beginning of the 4 consecutive inviolable months, as per Quran

This problem seems so obvious so it's likely discussed somewhere in traditions or by clerics. If so, it would be interesting to see what explanations they came up with.

#####

For those who want the above made even clearer, let me clarify. Reading Quran along with Traditional Islamic calendar:

red = inviolable months according to Traditional Islamic calendar

months
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 treaty acquittal announcement takes place (during HaJJ)
Quran says to those whom the treaty was broken with to roam the land for 4 months (i.e. amnesty)
Quran says when the inviolable months are passed then you can fight them etc.
1
2 (9:5 says you can fight them now, 9:2 says you have to wait 4 months = choosing one will violate the other, resulting in contradiction)
3 (if you wait 4 months and fight from now, as per 9:2, you will contradict 9:5 which says you can fight after inviolable months = choosing one will violate the other, resulting contradiction)
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12

In addition to the above: 9:5 uses the plural ashhur (months/full-moons/lunar-cycles) meaning 3+ (Arabic plural means 3 or more).

In other words, 3+ inviolable months have to pass before fighting is allowed BUT the announcement was made during HaJJ (which occurs in the 12th month according to the Traditional calendar) so 3+ inviolable months after that does not fit.

Note: according to traditional Islamic calendar the inviolable/sacred months are 11, 12, 1 and 7.


Is the Traditional Islamic calendar now refuted beyond doubt?

[good logic]

This also has a different view:
https://submission.org/Four_Sacred_Months.html

GOD bless.
Peace.

[Wakas]

I am writing an article on it currently. Here is an interesting snippet:

Quote:

Quran 9:1-2 mentions an acquittal/release from a treaty with some polytheists and tells them they have amnesty/ceasefire for 4 months/moons and then in 9:3 it mentions this announcement on the greatest day of the hajj or day of the greatest hajj (doesn't seem to matter which interpretation is chosen) but follows in 9:5 by saying when the plural inviolable months/moons have peeled/stripped-off/passed (see Project Root Llist for further evidence of the consecutive nature of this word "inSaLaKHha") then those who broke the treaty can be fought. Note the Arabic plural means 3 or more.
I initially thought The Quran was repeating the same acquittal/release in 9:1 in 9:3 again but I should have realised Quran's word precision is there for a reason. The 1st time it mentions 4 months, 2nd time it mentions when 3 or more inviolable months have peeled away. Also note how the beginning of each verse 9:3, 9:4 and 9:5 are linked to each other.
Thus the wording from 9:1-5 suggests the clear possibility that the 4 inviolable months/moons begin - then on the 2nd inviolable moon/month the hajj/homage periods can begin. This aligns with 2:197 which states "hajj are the months (plural: ashurun) well known". Remember the Arabic plural is 3 or more thus a minimum of 3 months/moons are allowed for hajj. If so this would match with 9:1-5.
The question then becomes what could be the first month/moon of the inviolable months/moons (if the last 3 are for the hajj)? The only other "named/described" month/moon given in Quran is "shahr ramadan" so this becomes the obvious candidate.

It just so happens when The Quran introduces "shahr ramadan" and then "al hajj" in chapter 2 it is in this order, i.e. ramadan first then discusses hajj.

We can prove from Quran that "al hajj" and "ramadan" do not coincide (i.e. same month/moon) because in the nights of abstinence one is allowed sexual relations with one's spouse (2:187) but when one is undertaking "al hajj" this is not allowed (2:197) and is only allowed after one fulfills/completes their hajj (which is a minimum of 2 days) see 2:203. Also see 2:196 in which abstinence is given as an option for expiation but this would make little sense if one was already abstaining/fasting in ramadan. And lastly exemption is given for abstinence if traveling but undertaking the hajj would likely involve traveling so seems a mixed message.

[tutti_frutti]

salam wakas,

Hope all is well

I do agree ramadan is not part of the forbidden months because of the fasting during hajj and intercourse law (for me ramadan is during heliacal rising of sirius star/dog days of summer based on my understanding of surah 53), and that the forbidden months are indeed consecutive

However, I think the hajj starts on the first forbidden month cause i think we are told on the day of the greater pilgrimage is when the revocation is made and follows it the 4 months

Based on surah 106, i think the forbidden months are in spring - the quraysh are away from the kaaba for their trip during the rainy season and summer season.. as such they cannot be doing hajj during the rainy season and summer season them being away from kaaba

Also, 9:81, they are fighting during summer, as the disbelievers say to not mobilize in the heat - given forbidden months fighting is not allowed, summer cannot be a forbidden month as they are fighitng during summer

Thanks,

tutti frutti

[Wakas]

peace tf,

Re: chapter 106
Please see this thread:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11092.msg70916#msg70916
post:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603865.msg299486#msg299486
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604001.msg300938#msg300938

Although in Modern Arabic, the word "sayf" means "summer", in Classical Arabic it means "spring". According to Classical Arabic dictionaries (see Lisan Al-3arab) the pre-quranic Arabs had the following seasons:

Shitaa: Winter
Sayf: Spring
Qayth: Summer
Kharif: Fall

Yes. This confirms what I said earlier, which is that in Classical Arabic "sayf" doesn't mean summer. Summer means "qayz" and "sayf" coincides with "spring" or "late spring" depending on whether we refer to the four season or six season systems that the Arabs used.

The scorching heat (ramadan) comes in "qayz", which is after "sayf". On the other hand, back then "kharif" was not after "sayf" like it is today.

The word "sayf" mentioned in 106:2 is often mistranslated as summer because this is the Modern Arabic meaning. In Classical Arabic the word "sayf" actually means "late spring" in the Arab six season system of shita/winter, rabi Awal/early spring, sayf/late spring, qayz/summer, rabi thany/early fall, kharif/late fall.

Thus sayf unlikely means summer.



###


Re: 9:81
https://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=nfr#(9:81:17)
It doesn't say fighting, it says "go forth". And it doesn't say summer. Hot period can be from late spring, through summer, to early autumn.

In other words this doesn't tell us much.

[Wakas]

Seems such an obvious error in the Traditional Islamic calendar when compared to Quran, so perhaps I'm missing something, hence putting this out there for others to ponder.

So I did some reading and according to tafsir Ibn Kathir this is how it is explained by Traditionalists: they say the 4 months mentioned in 9:5 (even though it doesn't say 4, it uses the Arabic plural 3+) are the same as the 4 months mentioned in 9:2 and this announcement was announced on a day during the hajj in the 12th month of Dhu al Hijjah so it is 4 months from then on. So they say the inviolable months in 9:5 are the 4 made inviolable in 9:2, by decree in context, so it is not referring to the ordinary inviolable months (i.e. 11th, 12th, 1st and 7th), it is referring to the next 4 from that date of announcement. So that means it is from announcement day in the 12th, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and a part of 4th month).

Some may consider this explanation acceptable. It will not help the other problems highlighted in the article however:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/quran-calendar.html