Quran strongly implies the 4 inviolable months are consecutive

[Wakas]

peace all,

I was reading some Quran calendar articles recently and agree that Al Quran strongly implies the 4 inviolable/restricted months/full-moons/lunar-cycles (al ashar al haram) are consecutive (i.e. one after the other, 4 in a row), NOT like the Traditional Islamic calendar system wherein they are split up during the year.

From:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm

Chapter 9
1. An acquittal/release from The God and His messenger to those with whom you made a treaty from among the polytheists.
2. Therefore, roam the earth for four months and know that you will not escape The God, and that The God will disgrace the ungrateful/rejecters.
3. And an announcement from The God and His messenger to the people on the day of the greatest hajj/symposium: "The God is quit/free from the polytheists and so is His messenger". If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape The God. And give news to those who conceal/reject of a painful retribution.
4. Except for those with whom you had a treaty from among the polytheists if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they plan to attack you; you shall continue the treaty with them until its expiry. Truly, The God loves the forethoughtful/conscientious.
5. So when the restricted months are passed, then you may fight the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them...


The reason being if 9:2 "roam the earth/land for 4 months" referred to the Traditional Islamic calendar restricted months (which are 11th, 12th, 1st, and 7th months) then this would conflict with 9:5 because more than 4 months would pass before fighting was permitted, thus the months have to be consecutive, to align 9:2 and 9:5.

Seems such an obvious error in the Traditional Islamic calendar when compared to Quran, so perhaps I'm missing something, hence putting this out there for others to ponder.


This has been discussed before, e.g.
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606276.msg347768#msg347768
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601935.msg272743#msg272743
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11938.msg86061#msg86061

Background:
https://www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/science/timing.htm
http://www.quranaloneislam.net/the-4-sacred-months-of-hajj

[NewFrenzy]

Why it's restricted? what is the wisdom behind it?

[Rilum]

Peace all,

"The reason being if 9:2 "roam the earth/land for 4 months" referred to the Traditional Islamic calendar restricted months (which are 11th, 12th, 1st, and 7th months) then this would conflict with 9:5 because more than 4 months would pass before fighting was permitted, thus the months have to be consecutive, to align 9:2 and 9:5."

No, it does not. 9:5 just mentions "restricted months" not "4 months", thus if the restricted months, which maybe splitted, have all passed, then they may fight.

[Noon waalqalami]

No, it does not. 9:5 just mentions "restricted months" not "4 months", thus if the restricted months, which maybe splitted, have all passed, then they may fight.

Peace ? no, would mean wait 8 to 12 lunar cycles depending on revelation time; word used is "foursome" not four.

9:2 فسىحوا so move about فى in الارض the land اربعه quartet (written with trailing "ه" i.e. group of 4 consecutive NOT any 4) اشهر ashhurin ...

9:5 فاذا so when انسلخ withdrew الاشهر l-ashhuru الحرم l-hurumu

9:36 ... اربعه quartet حرم hurumun

2:226 ... تربص wait اربعه quartet اشهر ashhurin

24:6 ... اربع four (written without "ه" )

[brook]

I would rather say restricted moons than restricted months
because it is not the moons but the months that make up the YEAR.
 
The moons make up series of the moons (عِدَّةَ الشُّهُورِ as it is called in 9:36),
which is 12 moons or 13 moons. (This year it is 13).

The time of the 4 restricted moons
is the time when it is resricted to hunt wild animals (5:94, 95)
because they give birth to their babies and tend to them.

That is another proof that the 4 restricted moons are consecutive.

[The Sardar]

I would rather say restricted moons than restricted months
because it is not the moons but the months that make up the YEAR.
 
The moons make up series of the moons (عِدَّةَ الشُّهُورِ as it is called in 9:36),
which is 12 moons or 13 moons. (This year it is 13).

The time of the 4 restricted moons
is the time when it is resricted to hunt wild animals (5:94, 95)
because they give birth to their babies and tend to them.

That is another proof that the 4 restricted moons are consecutive.

You may be on to something:

Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous (in a bad or good sense), hire/contract for a month, stay a month, month old, month, new moon, moon, full moon, any evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, a vice/fault or the like, big & bulky, reputable/eminent.

shahr n.m. (pl. shuhur and ashur) 2:185, 2:185, 2:194, 2:194, 2:197, 2:217, 2:226, 2:234, 4:92, 5:2, 5:97, 9:2, 9:5, 9:36, 9:36, 34:12, 34:12, 46:15, 58:4, 65:4, 97:3

LL, V4, p: 336, 337  ##http://ejtaal.net/aa/#q=shhr

[Wakas]

peace Rilum,

Perhaps you can provide us with an example to put this to the test, e.g. lets number the months 1-12 and you simply provide a possible scenario based on the verses and let's see if it passes.

E.g. which month does the no fighting (roam) for 4 months begin etc. Just pick a month number, then pick whichever months are restricted that you want, total of 4. Any 4, or the traditional 4 etc.

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12



peace Noon,

Peace ? no, would mean wait 8 to 12 lunar cycles depending on revelation time; word used is "foursome" not four.

9:2 فسىحوا so move about فى in الارض the land اربعه quartet (written with trailing "ه" i.e. group of 4 consecutive NOT any 4) اشهر ashhurin ...

9:5 فاذا so when انسلخ withdrew الاشهر l-ashhuru الحرم l-hurumu

9:36 ... اربعه quartet حرم hurumun

2:226 ... تربص wait اربعه quartet اشهر ashhurin

24:6 ... اربع four (written without "ه" )

I noticed you mentioned this before but I personally never verified it. Have you checked ALL the occurrences of such in Quran and confirmed consistency? (i.e. no exceptions to this)

Thanks.

[brook]

You may be on to something:

Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous (in a bad or good sense), hire/contract for a month, stay a month, month old, month, new moon, moon, full moon, any evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, a vice/fault or the like, big & bulky, reputable/eminent.

shahr n.m. (pl. shuhur and ashur) 2:185, 2:185, 2:194, 2:194, 2:197, 2:217, 2:226, 2:234, 4:92, 5:2, 5:97, 9:2, 9:5, 9:36, 9:36, 34:12, 34:12, 46:15, 58:4, 65:4, 97:3

LL, V4, p: 336, 337  ##http://ejtaal.net/aa/#q=shhr

The people who invented the so-called islamic calendar claim that their lunar year is made up of 12 moons.

But the claim
is baseless.

God's truth is this:

Each one of the 12/13 moons iN THE SKY
appears only in one particular season.

For example, the one which looks the brightest (shahr ramadan) appears at the beginning of hot summer
suggested by its name, ramadan, which means hot.

On the other hand,
each one of the moons ON PAPER (which is called islamic calendar)
appears in all 4 seasons.

They have got nothing to do with the moons created by God;
simply they are the months invented by man for the sake of the so-called islamic calendar.

The simple truth is that you can never make the year from the moons in the sky.

[Noon waalqalami]

peace Noon,

I noticed you mentioned this before but I personally never verified it. Have you checked ALL the occurrences of such in Quran and confirmed consistency? (i.e. no exceptions to this)

Thanks.

Peace Wakas ? yes always check consistency; see examples especially 18:22 usage.

6:160/89:2 عشر ten (10)
2:196/5:89 عشره tentet (group of ten)

17:101/27:12 تسع nine (9)
27:48 تسعه nonet (group of nine)
74:30 تسعه nonet عشر ten (i.e. group of nineteen malāikatan)

2:29/2:261/12:43-48 سبع seven (7)
15:44/18:22 سبعه septet (group of seven)

4:3/35:1 وربعand four (4)
24:6/24:8 اربعfour (i.e. 4 times)
2:226/2:234/2:260/4:15/9:2/9:36 اربعه quartet (group of four)
24:4/24:13 باربعه with quartet (i.e. group of four witnesses)

4:3 وثلث and three (3)
2:196/2:228/3:41/4:171 ثلثه trio (group of three)

[brook]

There are twelve full moons
from hot full moon 2017 to hot full moon 2018,
so June 28 is 11 days EARLIER than July 09
(https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=2017&country=74):

01: Jul 09, 2017
02: Aug 07, 2017
03: Sep 06, 2017
04: Oct. 05, 2017
05: Nov 04, 2017
06: Dec 03, 2017
07: Jan. 02, 2018
08: Jan. 31, 2018
09: Mar. 02, 2018
10: Mar. 31, 2018
11: Apr. 30, 2018
12: May 29, 2018

But there are thirteen full moons
from hot full moon 2018 to hot full moon 2019,
so July 17 is 19 days LATER than Jun 28:

01: Jun 28, 2018
02: July 27, 2018
03: Aug 26, 2018
04: Sep 25, 2018
05: Oct. 24, 2018
06: Nov 23, 2018
07: Dec 22, 2018
08: Jan. 21, 2019
09: Feb 19, 2019
10: Mar 21, 2019
11: Apr 19, 2019
12: May 18, 2019
13: Jun 17, 2019

01: July 17, 2019
?

The first 4 full moons of each series are forbidden
as it is forbidden to hunt wild animals in them (5:94, 95),
so they are consecutive.

Each 13?th full moon
causes the following moons to appear 19 days later
and thus fixes them each in only 1 (one) season.

But the moons of the lunar year drift from season to season
because, for the sake of inventing the 12-moon year, moon 13 is postponed ON PAPER
although it is an increase in kufr (9:37) - زيادة في الكفر.

The moons IN THE SKY can never be postponed
becuse man's hand can never reach to them
and can never move them from where they are... even an inch.

[Wakas]

peace all,

Another significant problem for the traditional Islamic calendar:

9:2 and 9:5 have to be reconciled, as discussed above, but ALSO in 9:3 it clearly states the announcement of treaty acquittal took place on the day of the greatest HaJJ. Now, it doesn't matter what one understands by "day of the greatest HaJJ" but the point is it was announced during a HaJJ period, meaning it is 4 months amnesty from then on.

In the Traditional Islamic calendar the alleged month for HaJJ is the 12th month, meaning 4 months from then would be end of the 3rd month at the earliest, which is well past the "inviolable" months according to the Traditional Islamic calendar (11, 12, 1, 7).

Meaning, there is not one but two significant Quran conflicts for the current Traditional Islamic calendar to solve. It seems to me it's not possible to solve them as per Quran.

1) inviolable months must be consecutive as per Quran
2) Hajj periods mark the beginning of the 4 consecutive inviolable months, as per Quran

This problem seems so obvious so it's likely discussed somewhere in traditions or by clerics. If so, it would be interesting to see what explanations they came up with.

#####

For those who want the above made even clearer, let me clarify. Reading Quran along with Traditional Islamic calendar:

red = inviolable months according to Traditional Islamic calendar

months
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 treaty acquittal announcement takes place (during HaJJ)
Quran says to those whom the treaty was broken with to roam the land for 4 months (i.e. amnesty)
Quran says when the inviolable months are passed then you can fight them etc.
1
2 (9:5 says you can fight them now, 9:2 says you have to wait 4 months = choosing one will violate the other, resulting in contradiction)
3 (if you wait 4 months and fight from now, as per 9:2, you will contradict 9:5 which says you can fight after inviolable months = choosing one will violate the other, resulting contradiction)
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12

 

[brook]

12 treaty acquittal announcement takes place (during HaJJ)

Peace Wakas.

What you mean by treaty acquittal is actually a ceasefire, which was announced on the very first day of the first inviolable moon (Shahr Ramadan) at Masjidal Haram (9:7). The 4-moon peace period strated from then on.

The greatest hajj took place in the second inviolable moon (Dhul Hijjah). It seems that the believers came to Masjidal Haram as part of their hajj activities and reminded the polytheists there and then of the ceasefire which had been announced the previous moon.

[Wakas]

peace brook,

Peace Wakas.

What you mean by treaty acquittal is actually is a ceasefire, which was announced on the very first day of the first inviolable moon (Shahr Ramadan) at Masjidal Haram (9:7). The 4-moon peace period strated from then on.

The greated hajj took place in second of the four inviolable moons. It seems that the believers came to Masjidal Haram as part of their hajj activities and reminded the polytheists there and then of the peace treaty which had been announced the previous moon.

Your theory seems speculative/baseless. In terms of evidence I favour my theory.

[brook]

peace brook,

Your theory seems speculative/baseless. In terms of evidence I favour my theory.

Peace.

My theory is speculative just as YOURS is Wakas
but mine is based on the words in the verses.

9:7 has the word عهد.
And 9:3 says that Allah and his messenger are immune from making عهد with polytheists
except the عهد which was made at Masjidal Haram.

The terms of the ceasefire (عهد) are as follows:

1.If one of the two sides is attacked from outside, the second side will not help the attacker (9:4).
2.Therefore the two sides will not attack each other during the 4 inviolable moons.
3.The ceasefire is valid for only the inviolable moons (4 initially, 3 from the hajj on); so when they are over, the war will pick up anew (9:5).

[brook]

11
12 treaty acquittal announcement takes place (during HaJJ)
Quran says to those whom the treaty was broken with to roam the land for 4 months (i.e. amnesty)
Quran says when the inviolable months are passed then you can fight them etc.
1

Please allow me, Quran does not say THAT
but it says,
due to the the treaty (عهد) of the ceasefire which had been accepted at Masjidal Haram (9:7),
the polytheists (and the believers) could safely roam the land for the 4 forbidden moons.

Moreover, the polytheists who had started the war were not granted i.e. amnesty
but they were given respite from the war,
which would start anew when the four-moon period expired (9:5).

*

Supposing it was year 630
which is the same as 2007 according to the metonic cycle,
the times of the 13 moons which عدة الشهور consisted of were as follows (9:36)
https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=2007&country=74:

Jun 04: 13th moon
): the first waxing crescent
O: full moon

The CONSECUTIVE 4-moon ceasefire time
started on Jun 16
and contined until Oct 12.

------- )/O
Jun 16/30, 630 Shahr Ramadan (2:185)
July 15/30, 630 Dhul Hijjah (9:3)
Aug 14/28, 630 Dhul Qaidah (?)
Sep 12/26, 630 Rajab (?)
Oct 12/26, 630
Nov 11/24, 630
Dec 10/24, 630
Jan 09/22, 631
Feb 08/21, 631
Mar 08/21, 631
Apr 07/20, 631
May 06/20, 631
Jun 04/18, 631

[Rilum]

Peace Wakas,

I am maybe not so sure, when the inviolable months are, and maybe I do not have so much knowledge about this topic, so I will not participate in this discussion anymore.

Salaam.

[ayman]

1) inviolable months must be consecutive as per Quran
2) Hajj periods mark the beginning of the 4 consecutive inviolable months, as per Quran

Peace brother Wakas,

In addition to your two points about the four inviolable full moons being consecutive, they MUST also occur at the beginning of the year for the simple reason that "nasi'" (the haphazard intercalation every other year) was done at the END of the year to delay the restriction on hunting.

The harvest feast occurs during known harvest full-moons. The first inviolable full moon is for fasting to remind us of the suffering of animals (see fasting prescribed as the only punishment in 5:95 where the hunter "tastes the consequence of his deed". Then the following three full moons are for the harvest feast.

Peace and best wishes,

Ayman 

[The Sardar]

Brother Ayman! Welcome back. 

[Mohammed.]

1) inviolable months must be consecutive as per Quran
2) Hajj periods mark the beginning of the 4 consecutive inviolable months, as per Quran[/b]

Peace,

In addition, the 4 restricted full moons/months can be in between winter and spring season.

The surah 106 speaks about travel of quraish in winter and spring (I prefer the meaning 'spring' for the Arabic term ‘saif')

because,
1) Dictionaries show ‘spring or summer' as the meaning of ‘saif'
2) Summer can't be a restricted period since 9:81 speaks about going for fighting in the heat [if this is about fighting the idolaters who broke their treaty, then the time prior to this hot time (i.e. prior to summer) would be al shahr al haram]
3) When it is spring, many animals and birds have their babies, so the ~100 days of restriction can prevent hunting of the pregnant animals (humans can't identify pregnant animals all the time)

And the chapter 106 speaks in such a way that the journey of quraish has some connection with Al Masjid Al Haram, since the chapter mentions Al Masjid Al Haram/Ka3ba, ?this House?, it seems this surah revealed when they are in AMAH, i.e. during a Hajj time. (So in winter they are coming for Hajj and after ~ 100 days in the spring, they return). And Ramadan starts in summer, i.e. after Hajj.

Some translations say there is big fighting in ‘al shahr al haram' (2:217), including the translation of free-minds.org
Qur'an say  ?...say: "Fighting/killing in it (is) big/great, and prevention/obstruction from God's path/way and disbelief with(in) it, and the Masjid the Forbidden/Sacred, and bringing/forcing out its people from it (is) bigger/greater at God, and persecution (is) bigger/greater from the fighting/killing,...?

In this verse the derivatives of root K-B-R come 3 times, and it is clear that the 2nd and 3rd occasions signify a sinful action even though it is not mentioned directly, (i.e. bigger/greater crime/sin). So the first occasion also can interpret in the same way i.e. big/great sin/crime.

Thus fighting/killing in Al Shahr Al Haram is
1) great sin
2) preventing (people) from God's path
3) equivalent to disbelieving in ASAH

Peace

[Mohammed.]

in between winter and spring season.

Sorry for my English, pls read 'within' instead of 'in-between'

it seems this surah revealed when they are in AMAH, i.e. during a Hajj time.

Not strictly during Hajj time, can also be when they gathered for the prayer

2:217 free-mind's translation

They ask you about the sacred month: "Is there fighting in it?" Say: "Much fighting is in it, and to repel from the path of God and to disbelieve in it, and the Sacred Temple, to drive its inhabitants out from it is far greater with God, and persecution is worse than being killed." And they still will fight you until they turn you back from your system if they are able. And whoever of you turns back from his system, and he dies while disbelieving, then these have nullified their works in this world and the next; these are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide!

[brook]

We know that the moon makes 12/13 revolutions around the earth
producing 12/13 full moons
from a particular time like the summer solstice to the next.

The question that comes to my mind is
what did the Arabs call the 13th full moon
in Prophet Muhammad's time?

http://astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases0601.html

01 -> Jun 02, 619: Ramadan
02 -> Aug 01, 619: ...
03 -> Aug 30, 619: ...
04 -> Sep 29, 619: ...
05 -> Oct 28, 619: ...
06 -> Nov 27, 619: ...
07 -> Dec 26, 619: ...
08 -> Jan. 25, 620: ...
09 -> Feb 23, 620: ...
10 -> Mar 24, 620: ...
11 -> Apr. 22, 620: ...
12 -> May 22, 620: ...
13 -> Jun. 20, 620: ?

01 -> Jul 20, 620: Ramadan
.......

The question is related to what extent the 12-moon lunar year can be taken seriously,
according to which the 4 restricted full moons are not consecutive.

[Mohammed.]

Peace,

In addition, the 4 restricted full moons/months can be in between winter and spring season.

The surah 106 speaks about travel of quraish in winter and spring (I prefer the meaning 'spring' for the Arabic term ‘saif')

because,
1) Dictionaries show ‘spring or summer' as the meaning of ‘saif'
2) Summer can't be a restricted period since 9:81 speaks about going for fighting in the heat [if this is about fighting the idolaters who broke their treaty, then the time prior to this hot time (i.e. prior to summer) would be al shahr al haram]
3) When it is spring, many animals and birds have their babies, so the ~100 days of restriction can prevent hunting of the pregnant animals (humans can't identify pregnant animals all the time)

And the chapter 106 speaks in such a way that the journey of quraish has some connection with Al Masjid Al Haram, since the chapter mentions Al Masjid Al Haram/Ka3ba, ?this House?, it seems this surah revealed when they are in AMAH, i.e. during a Hajj time. (So in winter they are coming for Hajj and after ~ 100 days in the spring, they return). And Ramadan starts in summer, i.e. after Hajj.

Some translations say there is big fighting in ‘al shahr al haram' (2:217), including the translation of free-minds.org
Qur'an say  ?...say: "Fighting/killing in it (is) big/great, and prevention/obstruction from God's path/way and disbelief with(in) it, and the Masjid the Forbidden/Sacred, and bringing/forcing out its people from it (is) bigger/greater at God, and persecution (is) bigger/greater from the fighting/killing,...?

In this verse the derivatives of root K-B-R come 3 times, and it is clear that the 2nd and 3rd occasions signify a sinful action even though it is not mentioned directly, (i.e. bigger/greater crime/sin). So the first occasion also can interpret in the same way i.e. big/great sin/crime.

Thus fighting/killing in Al Shahr Al Haram is
1) great sin
2) preventing (people) from God's path
3) equivalent to disbelieving in ASAH

Peace

peace,

Also note that in a year among all the 4 seasons, the winter season-because of the significant decrease in temperature-is easily recognizable to everyone irrespective of the age difference i.e. it is a well known season in each year. This we can connect with 2:197, which tells the Hajj is in well known full moons. So the first full moon in winter may mark the beginning of Al Shahr Al Haram.

And people will come for Hajj from distant areas even by walk(22:27) (may take several days/even full moon cycles to reach at Al Masjid Al Haram), this also makes sense that the 4 inviolable full moons should be consecutive.

[Mohammed.]

3) When it is spring, many animals and birds have their babies, so the ~100 days of restriction can prevent hunting of the pregnant animals (humans can't identify pregnant animals all the time)

In other words,

Will a 'true believer' kills/hunts(for food) an animal that is with babies?! I think Never. but as for animals which are in pregnancy period, the case is different -since believers/humans cannot identify them (especially in the initial stages of pregnancy) from animals which are not carrying a developing embryo.
Therefore this would be the restriction period i.e. Al Shahr Al Haram.

[Wakas]

Some extra points mentioned here:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2677.0

We could be close to solving this as per Quran.

[Wakas]

peace all,

Another significant problem for the traditional Islamic calendar:

9:2 and 9:5 have to be reconciled, as discussed above, but ALSO in 9:3 it clearly states the announcement of treaty acquittal took place on the day of the greatest HaJJ. Now, it doesn't matter what one understands by "day of the greatest HaJJ" but the point is it was announced during a HaJJ period, meaning it is 4 months amnesty from then on.

In the Traditional Islamic calendar the alleged month for HaJJ is the 12th month, meaning 4 months from then would be end of the 3rd month at the earliest, which is well past the "inviolable" months according to the Traditional Islamic calendar (11, 12, 1, 7).

Meaning, there is not one but two significant Quran conflicts for the current Traditional Islamic calendar to solve. It seems to me it's not possible to solve them as per Quran.

1) inviolable months must be consecutive as per Quran
2) Hajj periods mark the beginning of the 4 consecutive inviolable months, as per Quran

This problem seems so obvious so it's likely discussed somewhere in traditions or by clerics. If so, it would be interesting to see what explanations they came up with.

#####

For those who want the above made even clearer, let me clarify. Reading Quran along with Traditional Islamic calendar:

red = inviolable months according to Traditional Islamic calendar

months
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 treaty acquittal announcement takes place (during HaJJ)
Quran says to those whom the treaty was broken with to roam the land for 4 months (i.e. amnesty)
Quran says when the inviolable months are passed then you can fight them etc.
1
2 (9:5 says you can fight them now, 9:2 says you have to wait 4 months = choosing one will violate the other, resulting in contradiction)
3 (if you wait 4 months and fight from now, as per 9:2, you will contradict 9:5 which says you can fight after inviolable months = choosing one will violate the other, resulting contradiction)
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12

 

In addition to the above: 9:5 uses the plural ashhur (months/full-moons/lunar-cycles) meaning 3+ (Arabic plural means 3 or more).

In other words, 3+ inviolable months have to pass before fighting is allowed BUT the announcement was made during HaJJ (which occurs in the 12th month according to the Traditional calendar) so 3+ inviolable months after that does not fit.

Note: according to traditional Islamic calendar the inviolable/sacred months are 11, 12, 1 and 7.


Is the Traditional Islamic calendar now refuted beyond doubt?

[good logic]

This also has a different view:
https://submission.org/Four_Sacred_Months.html

GOD bless.
Peace.