Author Topic: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...  (Read 27511 times)

good logic

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #190 on: January 16, 2021, 11:37:40 AM »
Peace noon.
It does not matter. It is still not correct and can be easily deduced  A  singular noun and a plural adjective do not go together.
That was my point.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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ibn_a

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #191 on: January 17, 2021, 01:24:42 AM »
Salaam,

This seems an obvious pattern imo.

peace -- patterns are repeatable every time for every word/verse.

Peace Noon waalqalami,

Sorry, my poor English.

This seems an obvious pattern arrangement imo.




verses are man-made for easy reference  (nothing to do with 19 or 29 etc.)

Why would there be need for reference in a chapter with two lines of text ?

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/109/vers/1?handschrift=418



.2.بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم لايلف قريش .1. الفهم رحله الشتا والصيف   
فليعبدوا رب هذا البيت  .3. الذي اطعمهم من جوع وامنهم من خوف  4



106:1  SO THAT the Quraysh might remain secure
106:2  secure in their winter and summer journeys
106:3  Let them, therefore, worship the Sustainer of this Temple
106:4  who has given them food against hunger, and made them safe from danger




Another example: The length of verse 31 compared to other short verses in chapter 74.
(what was the source ?), why not cut verse 31 into more verses?

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610157.msg424050#msg424050




regardless # of verses you'll end up searching in a sea of endless multiples.

Agree but in this case because of the link between chapter 9 and chapter 27  I think it is relevant  i.e  the 19 chapter, verse, number distance.



Asim (d. 745 CE) and his student Hafs (d. 796 CE); what “reached us” is 1924 Cairo edition by committee to rid textual errors then other texts thrown in the river Nile similar to what Uthman supposedly did; likewise, guessing on kalala cases etc.


I would mostly agree with this:
"...
The vulgate of Uthmân aimed to provide the Muslim community with the authentic  Quranic Corpus. But this did not prevent the existence of variants within the text itself. These variants were subject to a large number of treatises by Muslim scholars. Today, they continue to attract the attention of researchers and many studies are dedicated to this topic.
Let us note that there are two types of variants in the reading of the Qurân. The first type is of a linguistic nature, in certain cases involving morphological, phonetic and grammatical variants. This primarily refers to what is called "Reading variants." The second type of variants, which is more specifically connected to our study, relates to the division of chapters into verses. It is better known under the name of  "caesura or separator variants."
...

-The variant Quranic Readings
According to tradition, these Readings, or "qirâ’ât ," are partially explained by the differences in the dialects of the Arab tribes. They are the result of the Prophet's permission to recite the original text according to one Arabic dialect or another.
...

Following the example of the Torah, centuries after the invention of the printing press, editions of the Qurân were still handwritten.The first printing of the Qurân recognised by the Muslim community was that of Saint Petersburg, in 1787. After several editions made by Muslims in Iran, India, Turkey and Egypt, it was the Cairo version that ultimately became a reference. In 1918, with a view to publishing a new edition of the Qurân, the University of Al-Azhar, in Cairo, carried out a verification of the first Egyptian edition of 1890, based on the Âsim’s Reading reported by hafs for the linguistic variants, coupled with the verse-count of Kûfa, which dates back to Alî Ibn Abî Talib.
Through scientific rigour, the scholars who worked on it did so not only on the basis of the existing handwritten editions, but above all, on the verbal transmission and technical treatises on the Readings and verse separators. This work resulted in the first mass  publishing of the Qurân, printed in 1923 and known as the King Fuad edition or the Cairo edition.
...

At the present time, for the linguistic variants, the vast majority of editions of the Qurân use the Reading of Asim, reported by Hafs and, for the numerical variants, the verse-count of Kûfa.
...

This does not express the preeminence of the Hafs’  Reading, nor the Kûfa verse-count. This was the natural choice since this is the most diffused Qurân edition worldwide. The mathematical observations of this study are mainly based on this edition. However, each time it is necessary and useful, or even complementary, the other Readings and verse-counts will be mentioned.
...


Read more:  from page 105 to page 135
https://www.academia.edu/37494956/Farid_Gabteni_The_Sun_Rises_in_the_West_9th_edition_2018_
"


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Noon waalqalami

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #192 on: January 17, 2021, 12:09:57 PM »
Peace noon.
It does not matter. It is still not correct and can be easily deduced  A  singular noun and a plural adjective do not go together.
That was my point.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace good logic, not always plural e.g. 25:14 see context...

4:1 رجلا rijalan/menfolk of (accusative masculine plural indefinite noun) كثىرا kathiran/much of
36:62 جبلا jibillan/multitude of (accusative feminine plural indefinite noun) كثىرا kathiran/much of
 
2:269, 4:19 خىرا khayran/good of (accusative masculine singular indefinite noun) كثىرا kathiran/much of
33:41 ذكرا dhik'ran/reminder of (accusative masculine indefinite verbal noun) كثىرا kathiran/much of
 
25:14 ثبورا thuburan/destruction of (accusative masculine indefinite noun) كثىرا kathiran/much of
 
4:2 حوبا huban/sin of (accusative masculine indefinite noun) كبىرا kabiran/great of
17:9 اجرا ajran/payment of (accusative masculine indefinite noun) كبىرا kabiran/great of
17:31 خطىا khitan/error of (accusative masculine indefinite noun) كبىرا kabiran/great of
25:19 عذبا adhaban/punishment of (accusative masculine indefinite noun) كبىرا kabiran/great of
25:52 جهادا jihadan/endeavor of (accusative masculine indefinite noun) كبىرا kabiran/great of
33:47 فضلا fadlan/bounty of (accusative masculine indefinite noun) كبىرا kabiran/great of
33:68 لعنا lanan/curse of (accusative masculine indefinite noun) كبىرا kabiran/great of
76:20 وملكا wamulkan/and kingdom of (accusative masculine indefinite noun) كبىرا kabiran/great of

This seems an obvious pattern arrangement imo.

Why would there be need for reference in a chapter with two lines of text ?

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/109/vers/1?handschrift=418

Another example: The length of verse 31 compared to other short verses in chapter 74.
(what was the source ?), why not cut verse 31 into more verses?

Peace ibn_a, standard practices perhaps; try finding consistent pattern with small chapters?

103:0 بسم in name الله the god الرحمن the almighty الرحىم the merciful
103:1 والعصر and/by the epoch
103:2 ان indeed الانسن the humankind لفى surely in خسر loss
103:3 الا except الذىن the ones امنوا believes they of وعملوا and work they of الصلحت the righteous وتوصوا and exhort they of بالحق in the truth وتوصوا and exhort they of بالصبر in the patience


these two verses are the only ones that contain all 28 letters…

3:154 ثم furthermore انزل descends علىكم upon you من from بعد after الغم the distress امنه safety نعسا slumber of (tranquility)...
48:29 محمد Muhammad رسول messenger الله the god...


we can see that 48:27 and 48:29 were also counted as two separate verses...

Paris, Bibliothèque nationale de France: Arabe 331

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/48/vers/29?handschrift=32






good logic

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #193 on: January 18, 2021, 06:21:35 AM »
Peace Noon.

I did say the context gives us the obvious answer of "Kathiran "  or "Kabiran"

All the examples you gave about "Kathiran-  have a plural meaning /inclination. Even "Khair" as singular  means- plenty of things-
 رِجالًا كَثيرً  -Many men-
جِبِلًّا كَثيرًا   -Multitudes of  you-
ثُبورًا كَثيرًا  -Many remorses-
 "Kathiran" goes with  plural nouns or special single ones that mean-Many things-
"Kabiran",however goes with only singular things .

GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Noon waalqalami

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #194 on: January 19, 2021, 06:57:22 AM »
I did say the context gives us the obvious answer of "Kathiran "  or "Kabiran"

Peace good logic, lets deduce another 21:4 قال qala/said or قل qul/say?

In old manuscripts each is قل (no alif) hence we need to use context.

Tübingen, Universitätsbibliothek: Ma VI 165
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/21/vers/4?handschrift=107



 
20:125 قال qala/said (obvious)
20:126 قال qala/said (obvious)

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/126/handschrift/107



good logic

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #195 on: January 19, 2021, 09:01:05 AM »
Peace noon.
Now you want to change to this?:
"Peace good logic, lets deduce another 21:4 قال qala/said or قل qul/say?"

How can you tell? This  is something you have to wrestle with.I have got  my "mushaf" locked and mathematically composed.
You know that unless one comes up with the prophet s copy, discussing possibilities  of mistakes are futile.
Unfortunately brother,discussing numbers with you is also futile.
Let us say then that I have my system and you will have to search for yours. All old mushafs available are not the original ,I think you know that. As for dating,you also know its probability.
And of course if you bring us the original copy of Qoran-The one the prophet left- Then it will be the ultimate proof.
I wait brother noon.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

Noon waalqalami

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #196 on: January 20, 2021, 04:14:50 AM »
Peace noon.
Now you want to change to this?:
"Peace good logic, lets deduce another 21:4 قال qala/said or قل qul/say?"

How can you tell? This  is something you have to wrestle with.I have got  my "mushaf" locked and mathematically composed.
You know that unless one comes up with the prophet s copy, discussing possibilities  of mistakes are futile.
Unfortunately brother,discussing numbers with you is also futile.

peace good logic, it is a simple question not about numbers.
if want to deny the question fine perhaps others can answer.

if قال qala/said, then "who said" according to context or text?

21:0 بسم in name الله the god الرحمن the almighty الرحىم the merciful
21:1 اقترب approaches للناس to the people حسبهم account theirs وهم and they فى in غفله unawareness its معرضون who away turning 21:2 ما not ىاتىهم bringeth them من of ذكر remembrance من from ربهم lord theirs محدث anew الا except استمعوه listens they it وهم and they ىلعبون playing 21:3 لهىه distract قلوبهم hearts theirs واسروا and conceals they of النجوى the private counsel الذىن the ones ظلموا wrong they of هل is هذا this الا except بشر mortal مثلكم similitude you? افتاتون indeed so thou approaching السحر the magic وانتم and are you تبصرون seeing? 21:4 قل qul/say ربى lord mine ىعلم knoweth القول the speech فى in السما the sky والارض and the land وهو and he السمىع the hearer العلىم the knower 21:5 بل or rather قالوا said they of اضغث confused احلم dreams بل or rather افتره fabricates it بل or rather هو he شاعر poet فلىاتنا so let bring us باىه with sign كما like/as what ارسل sent الاولون the former generations



57 translations: (18) قل qul/say, (39) قال qala/said
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/21/4/default.htm

[The Monotheist Group] (2011 Edition)       He said   
[The Monotheist Group] (2013 Edition)       Say   
A.L. Bilal Muhammad et al (2018)       Say   
Abdel Haleem       He said   
Abdul Hye He (Muhammad)       said   
Abdul Majid Daryabadi       The Prophet said   
Ahmed Ali       He said   
Ahmed Hulusi (Rasulullah saw)       says   
Ahmed Raza Khan (Barelvi)       The Prophet said   
Aisha Bewley       Say   
Ali Bakhtiari Nejad He (the prophet)       said   
Ali Quli Qara'i       He said   
Ali Ünal (The Messenger)       says (in response)   
Al-muntakhab fi tafsir al-Qur'an al-Karim       the Prophet said:   
Amatul Rahman Omar       He replied   
Arthur John Arberry       He says   
Bijan Moeinian Mohammad       said   
Dr. Kamal Omar       He said   
Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar       He said   
Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri       (The Esteemed Prophet) said   
Dr. Munir Munshey       The messenger said   
Dr. Mustafa Khattab       The Prophet responded   
Dr. Shehnaz Shaikh, Ms. Kauser Katri, and more       He said   
Edward Henry Palmer       Say   
Faridul Haque       And the Prophet said   
Farook Malik       Tell them   
George Sale       Say   
Hamid S. Aziz       Say   
Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah       He said:   
John Medows Rodwell       SAY   
Linda “iLHam” Barto       Say   
M. M. Pickthall       He saith   
Maududi       He said   
Maulana Muhammad Ali       He said   
Mohammad Shafi       The Prophet said   
Muhammad Ahmed - Samira       He said   
Muhammad Asad       Say   
Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali       He has said   
Muhammad Sarwar       The Lord said, "Tell them (Muhammad)   
Muhammad Taqi Usmani       He (the prophet) said   
Muhsin Khan & Muhammad al-Hilali       He (Muhammad SAW) said   
Musharraf Hussain       The Prophet said   
N J Dawood (2014)       Say   
Rashad Khalifa       He said   
Safi Kaskas       He said   
Sayyed Abbas Sadr-Ameli       He said:   
Sayyid Qutb       He says:    
Shabbir Ahmed       The Prophet said   
Shakir       He said   
Sher Ali       In reply to this the Prophet said   
Syed Vickar Ahamed       He (the Prophet) said   
T.B.Irving       SAY   
Talal A. Itani (new translation)       He said   
The Study Quran       He said   
Umm Muhammad (Sahih International)       The Prophet said   
Wahiduddin Khan       Say   
Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)       Say   

good logic

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #197 on: January 20, 2021, 05:06:54 AM »
Peace noon.
Sorry, I was making a general point about which text verse and mushaf people want to believe.
The context of 21:1-24 is all connected  to the message and messenger to Al Naas -all the generations-  The similarity of how each messenger was treated.
The context  to me implies that the word is  قالَ" KALA". The messenger/Bachar has said to his people.
2:4 قالَ رَبّى يَعلَمُ القَولَ فِى السَّماءِ وَالأَرضِ وَهُوَ السَّميعُ العَليمُ
His people have said after hearing him 21:5:
بَل قالوا أَضغٰثُ أَحلٰمٍ بَلِ افتَرىٰهُ بَل هُوَ شاعِرٌ فَليَأتِنا بِـٔايَةٍ كَما أُرسِلَ الأَوَّلونَ

Because the subject starts in general ,it is a narration. It is not an instruction or a command. Hence the message was delivered before there was opposition to it. Therefore in my opinion it is"قالَ ".  this " قالو" in the following verse confirms it.
My take.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Noon waalqalami

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #198 on: January 20, 2021, 09:41:40 PM »
The context  to me implies that the word is  قالَ" KALA". The messenger/Bachar has said to his people.

peace good logic, peruse all occurrences find instance where "said" is unclear as to who said?
no need to imply never “said” out of nowhere to conjecture 21:5 refers to messenger of Qur'an.

415   قال qala/said
247   قالوا qalu/said they of
85   وقال waqala/and said
61   وقالوا waqalu/and said they of
29   قالت qalat/said (f)
27   فقال faqala/so said
17   فقالوا faqalu/so said they of
13   وقالت waqalat/and said (f)
3   لقالوا laqalu/surely said they of
3   ىقال yuqalu/he said
2   قلا qala/said dual
2   قالتا qalata/said dual (f)
1   فقالت faqalat/so said (f)
1   قالها qalaha/said it
1   لقال laqala/surely said
1   لقال laqala/surely said
1   وقلا waqala/and said dual

21:4 قل qul/say ربى lord mine ىعلم knoweth القول the speech فى in السما the sky والارض and the land وهو and he السمىع the hearer العلىم the knower

21:5 بل or rather قالوا said they of اضغث confused احلم dreams بل or rather افتره fabricates it بل or rather هو he شاعر poet فلىاتنا so let bring us باىه with sign كما like/as what ارسل sent الاولون the former generations

25:4 وقال and said الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of ان indeed هذا this الا only افك lie افتره fabricates it واعانه and helped him علىه on it قوم folk اخرون others being فقد so verily جاوا came ye of ظلما wrong of وزورا and lie of


good logic

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #199 on: January 21, 2021, 03:18:04 AM »
Peace noon.
If you have evidence of your take/assumption ,let us have it. Otherwise it is also your conjecture.
I gave you my take and for me it fits . No need for me  to pursue this,quote :

"no need to imply never “said” out of nowhere to conjecture 21:5 refers to messenger of Qur'an."

Thank you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
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