... And He has counted everything in numbers ...

[seekingtruth1111]

Peace  seekingtruth1111

If I am counting the N s then I do not count the W.
If I am counting the letters of the whole surah for the purpose of interlock, then of course I count it.
What is the problem?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace Goodlogic!

Why are you not counting waw in this chapter ?

In all other chapters all the quranic initials are counted. So the method is not consistent .

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

...
In oldest manuscripts were written no alif (70+40+3=113) same as below.

104:2 الذى the one جمع jamaa/assemble (hoard) مالا wealth of وعدده and count it

...

Peace Noon waalqalami,

(I did not study GV, so not sure what it proves or disproves,....),
but why not be objective and show the manuscripts where it is spelled with Alif: جامع

For example this manuscript that you labeld as : "oldest manuscript and consistent"
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610132.msg419034#msg419034

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/140?handschrift=163
  662-765, σ2 (95,4%) [¹⁴C-Datierung durch Coranica] 

[good logic]

Peace,
The initial is "N" not "W" i.e Not  the spelling of letter N . Hence one would count the "N s not the "W s" This seems logical to me.

It is up to you if you take the stand that W is also an initial in Surah 68 . I do not. The initial is made clear that it is the letter N not how it was spelt..
GOD for the obvious reasons given above in my posts decided to spell it that way.
So shall we say another fitna for either me or you?
GOD bless you.
Peace. .

[good logic]

Peace   seekingtruth1111/
If however you say we count the "W" separately then do so. You may find there are 95 of them.(19 x 5)
See how many you can find by counting them yourself.
 However, I still think the initial concerned in surah 68 is N s regardless.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[seekingtruth1111]

Peace   seekingtruth1111/
If however you say we count the "W" separately then do so. You may find there are 95 of them.(19 x 5)
See how many you can find by counting them yourself.
 However, I still think the initial concerned in surah 68 is N s regardless.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace

97 times if you spell NuN with waw. 96 times if you don't spell it with waw. Just copy paste this text in a word file and search و

(68:0) بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
(68:1) نون والقلم وما يسطرون
(68:2) ما انت بنعمه ربك بمجنون
(68:3) وان لك لاجرا غير ممنون
(68:4) وانك لعلي خلق عظيم
(68:5) فستبصر ويبصرون
(68:6) باييكم المفتون
(68:7) ان ربك هو اعلم بمن ضل عن سبيله وهو اعلم بالمهتدين
(68: فلا تطع المكذبين
(68:9) ودوا لو تدهن فيدهنون
(68:10) ولا تطع كل حلاف مهين
(68:11) هماز مشا بنميم
(68:12) مناع للخير معتد اثيم
(68:13) عتل بعد ذلك زنيم
(68:14) ان كان ذا مال وبنين
(68:15) اذا تتلي عليه ايتنا قال اسطير الاولين
(68:16) سنسمه علي الخرطوم
(68:17) انا بلونهم كما بلونا اصحب الجنه اذ اقسموا ليصرمنها مصبحين
(68:18) ولا يستثنون
(68:19) فطاف عليها طايف من ربك وهم نايمون
(68:20) فاصبحت كالصريم
(68:21) فتنادوا مصبحين
(68:22) ان اغدوا علي حرثكم ان كنتم صرمين
(68:23) فانطلقوا وهم يتخفتون
(68:24) ان لا يدخلنها اليوم عليكم مسكين
(68:25) وغدوا علي حرد قدرين
(68:26) فلما راوها قالوا انا لضالون
(68:27) بل نحن محرومون
(68:28) قال اوسطهم الم اقل لكم لولا تسبحون
(68:29) قالوا سبحن ربنا انا كنا ظلمين
(68:30) فاقبل بعضهم علي بعض يتلومون
(68:31) قالوا يويلنا انا كنا طغين
(68:32) عسي ربنا ان يبدلنا خيرا منها انا الي ربنا رغبون
(68:33) كذلك العذاب ولعذاب الاخره اكبر لو كانوا يعلمون
(68:34) ان للمتقين عند ربهم جنت النعيم
(68:35) افنجعل المسلمين كالمجرمين
(68:36) ما لكم كيف تحكمون
(68:37) ام لكم كتب فيه تدرسون
(68:38) ان لكم فيه لما تخيرون
(68:39) ام لكم ايمن علينا بلغه الي يوم القيمه ان لكم لما تحكمون
(68:40) سلهم ايهم بذلك زعيم
(68:41) ام لهم شركا فلياتوا بشركايهم ان كانوا صدقين
(68:42) يوم يكشف عن ساق ويدعون الي السجود فلا يستطيعون
(68:43) خشعه ابصرهم ترهقهم ذله وقد كانوا يدعون الي السجود وهم سلمون
(68:44) فذرني ومن يكذب بهذا الحديث سنستدرجهم من حيث لا يعلمون
(68:45) واملي لهم ان كيدي متين
(68:46) ام تسلهم اجرا فهم من مغرم مثقلون
(68:47) ام عندهم الغيب فهم يكتبون
(68:48) فاصبر لحكم ربك ولا تكن كصاحب الحوت اذ نادي وهو مكظوم
(68:49) لولا ان تدركه نعمه من ربه لنبذ بالعرا وهو مذموم
(68:50) فاجتبه ربه فجعله من الصلحين
(68:51) وان يكاد الذين كفروا ليزلقونك بابصرهم لما سمعوا الذكر ويقولون انه لمجنون
(68:52) وما هو الا ذكر للعلمين

[good logic]

Peace  seekingtruth1111
Like I said the initial is N. Not W.
I counted 34 +51 +10 at first when you mentioned it, I counted again when you posted  and I found 96. Regardless, W is not the initial.
The Initial N is right 133. That is what really counts for me. W is not an initial of surah 68 and irrelevant..
If you argue otherwise, that is fine by me. You are entitled to your view.
I have no argument or problem with W not fitting.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[jkhan]

Peace  seekingtruth1111
Like I said the initial is N. Not W.
I counted 34 +51 +10 at first when you mentioned it, I counted again when you posted  and I found 96. Regardless, W is not the initial.
The Initial N is right 133. That is what really counts for me. W is not an initial of surah 68 and irrelevant..
If you argue otherwise, that is fine by me. You are entitled to your view.
I have no argument or problem with W not fitting.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace GL...
I have noticed this inconsistent way of counting in certain aspects first time I ever knew about RK and research ... But I only took what is consistent in numerical pattern.. It never made me to go after for everything...(Salat time,  Zakath, his messengership etc) That's why I never accepted any such counts away from Quran... But whatever within Quran I always accepted.. I respect him.. His destiny is in God's hand... . Even ibn-a I appreciated his works also I laughed at him when he brought about moon and counting.. That's rubbish... Stick with Quran... Coz I don't judge the person but what he speaks..
Further I accept tampering though it is away from existing quran but to oust those two verses the evidences furnished are beyond imagination...
Also this NuN issue... I accept it..but reason to accept unknown. Hope future will tell.. Something very special is hidden in this Nun.. So far I don't think it is convincing.... Just a belief... Coz all initialed letters tallied with numerical 19 particular.. And why this last initial letter should be exempted.. That bothers...
ST1111 question or I have noticed few others also posted question before such as either Laith or Sarah Moderator... Why wow...
Complicated but it definitely look it is Nun based chapter...
As you said GL, 14 times N apears in the verse Dunnun  mentioned.. N is 14th of such initial group..  N is 14th letter in Arabic...N sura is 68th  6+8=14.. Lol...

Nun is single letter group.. Like Qaf.. But Qaf is counted as 1..but Qaf doesn't end in Q.. Like QaQ.. But Nun does..

All other letters are multiple letter initials... But in H M ..the M is generally pronounced as MeeM but not  taken as two Ms... But NuN still single letter initialed sura ...

Why rest of the 28 initialed suras tally and not Nun... That's key.. Why God pronounced N as NuN in same chapter that also in a very strange manner uncommon way to call a messenger .

Most of all why all these meaningless letters are placed atop of 29 chapters...  Which no one can ever give a meaning to them other than considering them as Arabic letters.. But  so far only constructive meaning given is numerical pattern based on these letters..
May God guide us and show us things manifestly...untill then be patiently..

[Noon waalqalami]

(I did not study GV, so not sure what it proves or disproves,....),
but why not be objective and show the manuscripts where it is spelled with Alif: جامع

peace ibn, don't waste your time it's nonsense; there is no consistent code/pattern they're only freaking out at multiples.
again 74:30-31 (#of guards over hellfire) has nothing to do with  today's 19 infatuation, see my prior post read correctly.

look closely that manuscript original words were traced over numerous alif's added “penned in” later although in some cases they were lazy missed a few. We can approximately date manuscripts pre/post alifs and initials e.g. الم alif lam meem  as separate verses etc., ~150 years later.

3:9 ربنا lord ours انك indeed you جمع jamiu/assemble (gather) الناس the people لىوم to day لا not رىب doubt فىه in it ان indeed الله the god لا not ىخلف failed المىعاد the promise

with alif
700-900 (?) see 9th line from top
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/9?handschrift=565
 
700-1000 see 3rd line from bottom
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/9?handschrift=41

750-1000 (?) see 3rd line from top
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/9?handschrift=681


no alif جمع

dated pre 750 see 9th line from bottom
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/9?handschrift=13

662-765, (95,4%) see 3rd line from bottom alif “penned in” during trace over
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/9?handschrift=163

606-652 (95,4%) see 10th line from bottom
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/9?handschrift=73

[good logic]

Peace jkhan.
It is not me or RK or anyone else who spelt N as NUN in Qoran. 21:87 clearly spelt it like that. It is still the letter N.
وَذَا النّونِ إِذ ذَهَبَ مُغٰضِبًا فَظَنَّ أَن لَن نَقدِرَ عَلَيهِ فَنادىٰ فِى الظُّلُمٰتِ أَن لا إِلٰهَ إِلّا أَنتَ سُبحٰنَكَ إِنّى كُنتُ مِنَ الظّٰلِمينَ

This is indicating to us that  NUN is the letter N spelt like this in Qoran. This is also indicating that the other letter N should be spelt like this, - Exactly 14 N s in the verse indicate the 14 initials, hence the initial N is spelt NUN in the two cases where they are a single letter in the whole Qoran 21:87 and 68:1.
So the initial is the letter N , not how it is spelt. 68:1 has not got 3 initials and one of them is W . It is about the initial N only. Hence we count the N s only not the W.
Or you might say this is all coincidence?
You are entitled to your view.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[jkhan]

Peace jkhan.
It is not me or RK or anyone else who spelt N as NUN in Qoran. 21:87 clearly spelt it like that. It is still the letter N.
وَذَا النّونِ إِذ ذَهَبَ مُغٰضِبًا فَظَنَّ أَن لَن نَقدِرَ عَلَيهِ فَنادىٰ فِى الظُّلُمٰتِ أَن لا إِلٰهَ إِلّا أَنتَ سُبحٰنَكَ إِنّى كُنتُ مِنَ الظّٰلِمينَ

This is indicating to us that  NUN is the letter N spelt like this in Qoran. This is also indicating that the other letter N should be spelt like this, - Exactly 14 N s in the verse indicate the 14 initials, hence the initial N is spelt NUN in the two cases where they are a single letter in the whole Qoran 21:87 and 68:1.
So the initial is the letter N , not how it is spelt. 68:1 has not got 3 initials and one of them is W . It is about the initial N only. Hence we count the N s only not the W.
Or you might say this is all coincidence?
You are entitled to your view.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

As I said this NuN has some peculiar patten... All initials tallied but people have concern here in NuN the way it is counted.. .
Look at the phenomena in this way... 

** N is spelled as NuN in verse 21:87 which in fact has no direct meaning as of initials atop of other chapters.. More Strangely all verses after 21:87 until end of chapter 21, That is 21:112 ends in Letter 'N'... Non ends till end of chapter 21 in any other letter other than "N"

** more strangely...  In entire chapter21, verses end as "N" 106 occasions.. Rest 6 ends as 'M'... The peculiar thing is the Way NuN is spelled N W N.. Geometrical value of these three letters are N=50 W=6 N=50 is 106 ... That's the same number of times the verses end in letter "N" in chapter 21...

Pls verify..