... And He has counted everything in numbers ...

[seekingtruth1111]

Peace  seekingtruth1111

What do you mean by, quote:
What happens to waw if you spell NuN like that?

It makes no difference to the count of N s?
GOD bless you.
Peace

Peace Goodlogic

I am not talking about count of Ns. I am talking about why do you then discard the count of waw ? The inital should have 2 NuNs and one waw

[seekingtruth1111]

Peace Noon.
The word "GATHERER"" is about GOD gathering the Qoran. Hence the total 114 applies to the word جامِعُ . This totals 114.
You are not reading the posts properly and you are using other derivatives that have nothing to do with what I wrote.
Your post is missing the point.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Some meaningless or meaningful observation with chapter,verse,word numbers

3rd word of 75:17 is the word جَمْعَهُ

(75:17:3) jamʿahu   (is) its collection   إِنَّ عَلَيْنَا جَمْعَهُ وَقُرْآنَهُ

75+17+3=95=19x5

If we do it for the 13 concordance of the same word we get 1311=19x69

http://corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=lem%3AjamoE+pos%3An

[Noon waalqalami]

Some meaningless or meaningful observation with chapter,verse,word numbers

3rd word of 75:17 is the word جَمْعَهُ

(75:17:3) jamʿahu   (is) its collection   إِنَّ عَلَيْنَا جَمْعَهُ وَقُرْآنَهُ

75+17+3=95=19x5

If we do it for the 13 concordance of the same word we get 1311=19x69

http://corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=lem%3AjamoE+pos%3An

peace -- try applying consistently each verse; likewise all verses?
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=jmE#(75:17:3)

3   155   7      165       l-jamʿāni   8.684210526
3   166   5      174       l-jamʿāni   9.157894737
7   48   11      66       jamʿukum   3.473684211
8   41   28      77       l-jamʿāni   4.052631579
18   99   11      128       jamʿan   6.736842105
26   61   3      90       l-jamʿāni   4.736842105
28   78   23      129       jamʿan   6.789473684
42   7   13      62       l-jamʿi   3.263157895
42   29   13      84       jamʿihim   4.421052632
54   45   2      101       l-jamʿu   5.315789474
64   9   4      77       l-jamʿi   4.052631579
75   17   3      95      jamʿahu   5 x 19
100   5   3      108      jamʿan   5.684210526
                     
...   ...   ...      1356         71.36842105

Peace Noon.
The word "GATHERER"" is about GOD gathering the Qoran. Hence the total 114 applies to the word جامِعُ . This totals 114.
You are not reading the posts properly and you are using other derivatives that have nothing to do with what I wrote.
Your post is missing the point.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

peace good logic, 75:17 جمعه assembly its -- nothing to do with verses below.

3:9 jamiu/assemble
4:140 jamiu/assemble    
24:62 jamiin/collective

In oldest manuscripts were written no alif (70+40+3=113) same as below.

104:2 الذى the one جمع jamaa/assemble (hoard) مالا wealth of وعدده and count it

Already posted variations words written with suffix/prefix e.g. "ya" he gathers or gathered.

5:109 ىوم day ىجمع yajmau/assembled (gathered) الله the god الرسل the messengers
64:9 ىوم day ىجمعكم yajmaukum/assembled (gathered) you لىوم to day الجمع l-jami/the assembly 
75:3 اىحسب do calculated الانسن the humankind الن that not نجمع najmaa/we assemble عظمه bones his?

see last line 4:140 ان indeed الله the god جمع jamiu/assemble (gather)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/140?handschrift=13

see 8th line from bottom: https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/140?handschrift=31

see 7th line from top: https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/140?handschrift=496

see 6th line from top: Berlin, State Library: ms.or.fol. 4313 606-652, CE dated (95.4%)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/140?handschrift=15



74:30-31 (nineteen guards over hellfire) nothing to do with today's multiple hunting infatuation.

peace!

[seekingtruth1111]

peace -- try applying consistently each verse; likewise all verses?
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=jmE#(75:17:3)

3   155   7      165       l-jamʿāni   8.684210526
3   166   5      174       l-jamʿāni   9.157894737
7   48   11      66       jamʿukum   3.473684211
8   41   28      77       l-jamʿāni   4.052631579
18   99   11      128       jamʿan   6.736842105
26   61   3      90       l-jamʿāni   4.736842105
28   78   23      129       jamʿan   6.789473684
42   7   13      62       l-jamʿi   3.263157895
42   29   13      84       jamʿihim   4.421052632
54   45   2      101       l-jamʿu   5.315789474
64   9   4      77       l-jamʿi   4.052631579
75   17   3      95      jamʿahu   5 x 19
100   5   3      108      jamʿan   5.684210526
                     
...   ...   ...      1356         71.36842105



peace!

Peace

I had a feeling someone will waste time to disprove it .

I did not count repeating chapter numbers 1356-3-42=1311

However following your consistent approach for all the verses with the same root jīm mīm ʿayn (ج م ع)

12350=19x650

[good logic]

Peace  seekingtruth1111

If I am counting the N s then I do not count the W.
If I am counting the letters of the whole surah for the purpose of interlock, then of course I count it.
What is the problem?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[good logic]

Peace Noon.
Your argument should be either:
1- Jamihu-Gatherer has not got a  a total number of 114.
2- It is coincidence ,
The rest of your posts are irrelevant.
For 1- I await if you disagree.
For 2- I say there is no coincidence with GOD s words . They are put exactly where the number frame for the text dictates. All meticulously planned.- Kitabun Marquoom- A mathematically composed book.(Every letter ,every word ,every verse and every surah arranged by the Gatherer+)
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Noon waalqalami]

peace good logic,

everything posted on 19 is irrelevant meaningless multiples at par with stupid stuff on the internet -- embarrassing!

again today's infatuation hunting multiples "hiding" 18/19 failures showing 1/19 hits has nothing to do with 74:30-31

I had a feeling someone will waste time to disprove it .

I did not count repeating chapter numbers 1356-3-42=1311

However following your consistent approach for all the verses with the same root jīm mīm ʿayn (ج م ع)

12350=19x650

peace, another meaningless multiple why not play with: https://www.random.org/integers

perhaps play "hunt 29" lower probability although this case beats 19 by 8 to 4 or double!

2   161   13      176         _            _      ajmaʿīna
2   29   8      39         _            _      jamīʿan
2   38   4      44         _            _      jamīʿan
2   148   13      163         _            _      jamīʿan
2   165   27      194         _            _      jamīʿan
3   25   3      31         _            _      jamaʿnāhum
3   157   14      174         6 x 29            _      yajmaʿūna
3   173   8      184         _            _      jamaʿū
3   87   9      99         _            _      ajmaʿīna
3   155   7      165         _            _      l-jamʿāni
3   166   5      174         6 x 29            _      l-jamʿāni
3   103   4      110         _            _      jamīʿan
3   9   3      15         _            _      jāmiʿu
4   23   43      70         _            _      tajmaʿū
4   87   6      97         _            _      layajmaʿannakum
4   71   10      85         _            _      jamīʿan
4   139   14      157         _            _      jamīʿan
4   140   33      177         _            _      jamīʿan
4   172   18      194         _            _      jamīʿan
4   140   28      172         _            _      jāmiʿu
5   109   2      116         4 x 29            _      yajmaʿu
5   17   28      50         _            _      jamīʿan
5   32   21      58         2 x 29            _      jamīʿan
5   32   27      64         _            _      jamīʿan
5   36   10      51         _            _      jamīʿan
5   48   46      99         _            _      jamīʿan
5   105   15      125         _            _      jamīʿan
6   12   13      31         _            _      layajmaʿannakum
6   35   22      63         _            _      lajamaʿahum
6   149   8      163         _            _      ajmaʿīna
6   22   3      31         _            _      jamīʿan
6   128   3      137         _            _      jamīʿan
7   18   12      37         _            _      ajmaʿīna
7   124   8      139         _            _      ajmaʿīna
7   48   11      66         _            _      jamʿukum
7   38   23      68         _            _      jamīʿan
7   158   8      173         _            _      jamīʿan
8   41   28      77         _            _      l-jamʿāni
8   37   12      57         _            3 x 19      jamīʿan
8   63   9      80         _            _      jamīʿan
10   58   10      78         _            _      yajmaʿūna
10   71   20      101         _            _      fa-ajmiʿū
10   4   3      17         _            _      jamīʿan
10   28   3      41         _            _      jamīʿan
10   65   7      82         _            _      jamīʿan
10   99   9      118         _            _      jamīʿan
11   119   15      145         5 x 29            _      ajmaʿīna
11   55   4      70         _            _      jamīʿan
11   103   11      125         _            _      majmūʿun
12   15   4      31         _            _      wa-ajmaʿū
12   102   11      125         _            _      ajmaʿū
12   93   12      117         _            _      ajmaʿīna
12   83   14      109         _            _      jamīʿan
13   18   15      46         _            _      jamīʿan
13   31   18      62         _            _      jamīʿan
13   31   29      73         _            _      jamīʿan
13   42   8      63         _            _      jamīʿan
14   8   9      31         _            _      jamīʿan
14   21   3      38         _            2 x 19      jamīʿan
15   30   4      49         _            _      ajmaʿūna
15   39   10      64         _            _      ajmaʿīna
15   43   4      62         _            _      ajmaʿīna
15   59   6      80         _            _      ajmaʿīna
15   92   3      110         _            _      ajmaʿīna
16   9   10      35         _            _      ajmaʿīna
17   88   3      108         _            _      ij'tamaʿati
17   103   9      129         _            _      jamīʿan
18   99   10      127         _            _      fajamaʿnāhum
18   99   11      128         _            _      jamʿan
18   60   9      87         3 x 29            _      majmaʿa
18   61   3      82         _            _      majmaʿa
20   60   3      83         _            _      fajamaʿa
20   64   1      85         _            _      fa-ajmiʿū
20   123   4      147         _            _      jamīʿan
21   77   12      110         _            _      ajmaʿīna
22   73   17      112         _            _      ij'tamaʿū
24   31   74      129         _            _      jamīʿan
24   61   55      140         _            _      jamīʿan
24   62   12      98         _            _      jāmiʿin
26   38   1      65         _            _      fajumiʿa
26   49   21      96         _            _      ajmaʿīna
26   65   5      96         _            _      ajmaʿīna
26   95   3      124         _            _      ajmaʿūna
26   170   3      199         _            _      ajmaʿīna
26   61   3      90         _            _      l-jamʿāni
26   56   2      84         _            _      lajamīʿun
26   39   5      70         _            _      muj'tamiʿūna
27   51   9      87         3 x 29            _      ajmaʿīna
28   78   23      129         _            _      jamʿan
32   13   16      61         _            _      ajmaʿīna
34   26   2      62         _            _      yajmaʿu
34   40   3      77         _            _      jamīʿan
35   10   7      52         _            _      jamīʿan
36   32   4      72         _            _      jamīʿun
36   53   8      97         _            _      jamīʿun
37   134   4      175         _            _      ajmaʿīna
38   73   4      115         _            _      ajmaʿūna
38   82   4      124         _            _      ajmaʿīna
38   85   7      130         _            _      ajmaʿīna
39   44   4      87         3 x 29            _      jamīʿan
39   47   8      94         _            _      jamīʿan
39   53   16      108         _            _      jamīʿan
39   67   7      113         _            _      jamīʿan
42   15   31      88         _            _      yajmaʿu
42   7   13      62         _            _      l-jamʿi
42   29   13      84         _            _      jamʿihim
43   32   25      100         _            _      yajmaʿūna
43   55   6      104         _            _      ajmaʿīna
44   40   5      89         _            _      ajmaʿīna
45   26   7      78         _            _      yajmaʿukum
45   13   9      67         _            _      jamīʿan
54   45   2      101         _            _      l-jamʿu
54   44   4      102         _            _      jamīʿun
56   50   1      107         _            _      lamajmūʿūna
58   6   4      68         _            _      jamīʿan
58   18   4      80         _            _      jamīʿan
59   14   3      76         _            4 x 19      jamīʿan
59   14   16      89         _            _      jamīʿan
62   9   9      80         _            _      l-jumuʿati
64   9   2      75         _            _      yajmaʿukum
64   9   4      77         _            _      l-jamʿi
70   18   1      89         _            _      wajamaʿa
70   14   4      88         _            _      jamīʿan
75   3   4      82         _            _      najmaʿa
75   9   1      85         _            _      wajumiʿa
75   17   3      95         _            5 x 19      jamʿahu
77   38   4      119         _            _      jamaʿnākum
100   5   3      108         _            _      jamʿan
104   2   2      108         _            _      jamaʿa
                                       
_   _   _      12350                        

yes even though takes few minutes -- total waste of time really stupid stuff at par with flat earth and dumb hearsay stories.

peace!

[jkhan]

everything posted on 19 is irrelevant meaningless multiples at par with stupid stuff on the internet --                

yes even though takes few minutes -- total waste of time really stupid stuff at par with flat earth and dumb hearsay stories.

Peace..
Don't raise and be proud beyond limit... One day it can hurt beyond you blamed..
You are believer or Munafiq God only knows.. Like everyone... Let God decide.. But if you a believer... There is no point if you deny whatever manifest 19 or other numerical pattern...  Numerical patterns are there for sure.. Aren't there?...  So obey that.. Entirely denying is showing your balls... I mean you have shown your earth ball..
Stupidity and nonsensical thing is to believe a thing that is never there and never seen and never can percieve and never with eyewitness proved... All mystical delusion of globe earth... But stationary earth is visible and for ages people believed and still people are believing... And so perceivable and within the sense of human... And if you are a believer Quran never support spinning earth only your delusiom and leaning to deception will support...

Keep denying but we will keep agreeing to 19 ...you know one thing it increases our belief in God and and makes it firm... What makes you increase in God's belief BTW.. NASA?  Lol..

Just don't deny basic at least... In chapter 1 ... 19 times both lips strongly touching to pronounce 19 words... They are B   and M..  4 times and 15 times respectively.... Why... And their geometric value is B=2 ..M=40 ...so total 608... 19x32.... Why... We can't deny them.... Bring any other religions book other God and show me some great numerical pattern...
Dude why God challenged bring at least one real chapter.. My goodness. There very short chapters.. Why can't take up the challenge... There are lot to be revealed from Quran.. Wait and see...
UNTILL then keep spinning the ball... At least it would stop at 19th angle... 😊

God bless you if you believer... And God make you victorious over us if you are right.. If you are right let God give you more and more knowledge and expose all those who against you...

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

74:31 And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be angels; and We did not make their number except as a test for those who have rejected, so that those who were given the Book would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Book and the believers do not have doubt, and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would say: "What did God mean with an example such as this?" It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know the soldiers of your Lord except He; and it is but a reminder for human beings.

There are two groups both of whom claim to believe in the Quran being of divine origin

One group who believes "their number/count"  is just a trial/fitna for the rejecters  and seeing this fitna/trial of the rejecters their faith increases and followings happens

so that those [/color]who were given the Book would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Book and the believers do not have doubt, and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would say: "What did God mean with an example such as this?" It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes.

The second group who believes "their number/count"  is just a trial/fitna for the rejecters because of the mathematical structure of the Quran and their faith increases observing the mathematical miracle or the Quran not observing the fitna/trial of the rejecters.

Now the question is who  are the rejecters?

As per the same chapter of the Quran they are the ones who doubt/reject the divine origin of the Quran and says it is merely saying of a human being.

74:24 So he said: "This is nothing except the magic of old."
74:25 "This is nothing except the saying of a human being."

So this is the 3rd group who categorically reject Quran and also any miracle claimed for Quran

Now back to the first two groups(both of which accepts the divine origin of the Quran)

One of them will be saying along with the rejecters "What did God mean with an example such as this?"

and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would say: "What did God mean with an example such as this?" It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes.


Some said since before understanding this example we need to ask the question "What did God mean with an example such as this?" we should not even try to interpret or understand this example/verse

Same Queston can be found in the following verse

2:26 God does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say: "What does God intend with this example?" He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.

Does God forbids us to ponder over the examples ?

The following verse says every example should be pondered over.
39:27 And We have put forth for the people in this Qur'an from every example, that they may take heed.

So should we ponder over  verse 74:31 ?

--How "their number/count"  becomes fitna/test for the people who have rejected the divine orign of Quran?
--Does observing fitna/test for rejecter that increases the faith of the believers or observation related to  "their number/count" increases the faith ?

....

Peace seekingtruth1111,

I think it is good analyze.

...

Just as an example:

I just observed the word "their number"/عِدَّتَهُمْ  is the 9th word of the verse 74:31. 74+31+9=114=19x6 .

http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(74:31:9)

However I also tried the followings which are  not multiple of 19

74319 not a multiple of 19
7+4+3+1+9=24 not a multiple of 19

So is it a fitna/test for me because I am trying to discover a pattern with number 19 divisible? Am I rejecting the divine origin of Quran?

Has anyone's faith increased by observing this  fitna?

red:mine

Some say it does increase their faith.

...

In this discussion, you can clearly see 74:30-31 in action because you can see who doesn't believe in the great reading without being attracted to Code 19. So they believe in the Code MORE than they believe in the great reading. Their claim of belief is as false as their Code. Please remember that 74:30-31 clearly states that the count/counting of 19 is nothing except a "fitna" (attractive temptation) for the disbelievers. Seeing this empirically verifiable fact is what results in increasing the belief of those who are ALREADY believers (without any Code).

...

red:mine

One of the problems with this understanding is that  they categorize those who believe that there is a numerical structure (and of course believe) in the Quran, as:

"those who disbelieve / reject / alladhiena kafaru."

Which doesn't make sense of course, and in contradiction with the Quran, because those who believe that there is a numerical structure in the Quran are not disbelievers, as their aim is to prove that the Quran is a numerically preseved book by God.

----

Some of those who do not believe in a numerical structure, see 74:30-31 as a Prohecy i.e.

The reason for revealing this number 19 would be to suggest to a group of believers that there is a numerical structure in the Quran.(that actually wouldn't be there??? ) and the purpose would be:
that other groups will increase their faith and have no doubt, by observing the group of believers counting.

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They don't  (want to) read in context, that is why I thik that they missed the reason for mentioning this number 19 as a response to:

In hatha illa qawlu albashari

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/25/
So according to logic this number 19 will disprove that : In hatha illa qawlu albashari



And I thik that they missed also the warning: Innaha la-ihda alkubari  natheeran lilbashari
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/35/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/36/


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

...
nothing – everything posted is irrelevant, why freak out over multiples?
9:128-129 one can hunt multiples as well, why not freak out at below?

91289129 = 19 x 4804691
9 + 128 + 129 = 266 (14 x 19!)

total letters 60 + 54 = 114 (6 x 19!)

19th word is Allah!
76th letter (76 = 19 x 4) is alif in Allah!

# of letters from beginning of verse to including Allah = 19!
9:129 فان so if تولوا turn they of فقل so say حسبى suffices me الله the god

19th word Allah to end of chapter 9 is multiple!
130305 301 1305 1301 56 7030105 40062030400 656 2002 13070200300 130709001040 = 19 x ...!

19th word Allah followed by word # to end of chapter 9 is multiple!
130305 19 301 20 1305 21 1301 22 56 23 7030105 24 40062030400 25 656 26 2002 27 13070200300 28 130709001040 29 = 19 x...!

http://www.javascripter.net/math/calculators/100digitbigintcalculator.htm
(To calculate the remainder of division, use the mod button.)

peace!

Peace Noon waalqalami,

A good example on how to operate, in order to blur the numerical structure of the Quran.
And also helped by those who believe in a numerical structure in the Quran, but exaggerate, force or manipulate data and present the results that are coincidences as patterns.

Same way as those who criticize islam because of the interpretations by some muslims.

Do not see how your example would disprove a numerical structure of the Quran, please reread what I said:

Salaam,




Peace Noon waalqalami,



Of course obvious that when there is a large amount of data, some of it could be a multiple of whatever number, no issue about that,  but that does not exclude a structure / pattern, if this was the author' s intention.

It is also logical to differentiate between that what is due to coincidence ( 1/whatever number ) and that what is intended by the Author.

Not sure about a methode to find an intended pattern wthout failures.

Logique that failures are due to the fact that the patterns / structures are no known in advance.

I do not see the relevance about the failures, as they do not disprove a possible numerical structure

Failures do not change the facts, if there are.


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The issue / question  is about intended or not.
example:

- Are  the 114 capters of the Quran intended or it just happen to be 114 ?

- Was the basmalah chosen to have 19 letters or it just happen to be 19 ?

- Why is there no Basmalah in chapter 9 and an extra Basmalah in chapter 27, and why this 19 chapter distance?

- Are the positions of the chapters (with initial letters) assinged or could they be in any other position?

- What is  74: 30-31 about ?

- etc ....



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.