Author Topic: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...  (Read 3686 times)

ibn_a

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #100 on: April 10, 2019, 09:44:26 AM »
Salaam,



peace ibn_a
Again chapter/verses is simple human made arrangement for easy reference and checksum.


Again chapter/verses arrangements which there are several is clearly by humans (1. not part of revelation 2. they said verse #s added later) and only showed you an example how it was done which btw is superior with (5) multiple totals.

peace!

Peace Noon,

Not man made arrangement, probably variations of an original revealed arrangement.
See  25:32 and 73:4  ---- the word  رتل

Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane (d. 1876)
http://lisaan.net/search/%D8%B1%D8%AA%D9%84?cat=50

Habib Anthony Salmone, An Advanced Learner's Arabic-English Dictionary (1889)
http://lisaan.net/search/%D8%B1%D8%AA%D9%84?cat=52


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/25/32/default.htm

Muhammad Asad:

arranged its component parts that they form one consistent whole -27

Note 26
Lit., "in one piece" or "as one statement" (jumlatan wahidatan) - implying, in the view of the opponents of Islam, that the gradual, step-by-step revelation of the Qur'an points to its having been "composed" by Muhammad to suit his changing personal and political requirements.


Note 27
I.e. free of all inner contradictions (cf. 4:82). See also 39:23, where the Qur'an is spoken of as "fully consistent within itself". The concise phrase rattalnahu tartilan comprises the parallel concepts of "putting the component parts [of a thing] together and arranging them well" as well as "endowing it with inner consistency


------

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/73/4/default.htm

Muhammad Asad:

73:4 or add to it [at will]; and [during that time] recite the Qur'an calmly and distinctly, with thy mind attuned to its meaning.3

Note 3
This, I believe, is the closest possible rendering of the phrase rattil al-qur'ana tartilan. The term tartil primarily denotes "the putting [of something] together distinctly, in a well-arranged manner, and without any haste" (Jawhari, Baydawi; also Lisan al-Arab, Qamus). When applied to the recitation of a text, it signifies a calm, measured utterance with thoughtful consideration of the meaning to be brought out. A somewhat different significance attaches to a variant of this phrase in 25:32, applying to the manner in which the Qur'an was revealed.







Yes know manuscript (not oldest) ...

- date manuscript:

https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/mss/ms2165.html






... some initialed verses resemble current while others do not.

- Agree that's what i said:


Not in all "the oldest" manuscripts, Here is one of the "oldest manuscript"(Or. 2165 ) where some of the initials are as a separated verses, which show some resemblance with the current hafs reading concerning the initials.








Again look at 1st century "the oldest" manuscripts ا ب ره ى م consistently spelled in 2nd chapter.
(no more comments on this end of discussion)

The name "Abraham ابرهم" spelled without " ya ي"  in chapter 2 in this manuscript :

...
Originally believed to date from the latter part of the eight century, the folio of MS Leiden Or. 14.545b has now been subject to radiocarbon analysis under the auspices of the Corpus Coranicum project and has been dated to 652-763 CE with 95.4% probability, with that range being broken down into a 89.3% probability that it dates to between 652 and 694 CE and a 6.1% probability that it dates to between 747 and 763 CE.[3]
...
https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/mss/arabe331.html


See manuscript and details here :

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610294.msg424177#msg424177









The Reminder/ Al-dhikr refers to the Quran / the Book / the Scripture:


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/15/6/

15:6 And they say, "O you (to) whom has been sent down [on him] the Reminder / Al-dhikr, indeed, you (are) surely mad.


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/15/9/default.htm

15:9 Indeed, We We have sent down the Reminder/ Al-dhikr, and indeed, We of it (are) surely Guardians.


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/41/

41:41 Indeed, those who disbelieve in the Reminder / Al-dhikr when it comes to them. And indeed, it (is) surely a Book mighty.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/42/

41:42 Not comes to it the falsehood from before it and not from behind it. A Revelation from (the) All-Wise, (the) Praiseworthy.









Read in context and reflect: why is this number 19 revealed and what is its purpose.




والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Noon waalqalami

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #101 on: April 10, 2019, 04:17:19 PM »
Not man made arrangement, probably variations of an original revealed arrangement.
See  25:32 and 73:4  ---- the word  رتل

nothing to do with man-made chapter/verse numbers.

- Agree that's what i said:

then you agree your example clearly shows initials were man-made and inconsistent.

The name "Abraham ابرهم" spelled without " ya ي"  in chapter 2 in this manuscript :
The Reminder/ Al-dhikr refers to the Quran / the Book / the Scripture:

الذكر l-dhik'ri/الذكر l-dhik'ri/the reminder

38:1 ص saad والقران wal-qur'āni ذى owner  الذكر l-dhik'ri/الذكر l-dhik'ri


Read in context and reflect: why is this number 19 revealed and what is its purpose.

ibn_a

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #102 on: April 13, 2019, 12:30:04 AM »
Salaam,


nothing to do with man-made chapter/verse numbers.

Peace Noon,

Chapter and verse arrangement revealed not left to human desire.

What is the meaning of:

... warattalnāhu tartīlan             ..warattili l-qur'āna tartīlan

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/25/32/default.htm

waqāla alladhīna kafarū lawlā nuzzila ʿalayhi l-qur'ānu jum'latan wāḥidatan kadhālika linuthabbita bihi fuādaka warattalnāhu tartīlan

وقال الذين كفروا لولا نزل عليه القران جمله وحده كذلك لنثبت به فوادك ورتلنه ترتيلا

----

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/73/4/default.htm

aw zid ʿalayhi warattili l-qur'āna tartīlan

او زد عليه ورتل القران ترتيلا




then you agree your example clearly shows initials were man-made and inconsistent.

Not exactly, previously you said:

no need to cite me examples I've thoroughly looked into it (more than anyone) including numerology nonsense; again look at "the oldest" manuscripts see that all initials were consistently together ....
( red color: mine)


Gave an example of manuscript where some of the initials are as separated verses, and  said variants qiraa't of an original manuscript.


Not in all "the oldest" manuscripts, Here is one of the "oldest manuscript"(Or. 2165 ) where some of the initials are as a separated verses, which show some resemblance with the current hafs reading concerning the initials.



Manuscript where some initials are as separated verses:


http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=or_2165
f88v
30:1 الم Alif. Lam. Mim.


---------------


http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=or_2165
f91r
31:1 الم Alif. Lam. Mim.



---------------


http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=or_2165
f117r
42:1 حم عسق Ha. Mim.   Ayn. Sin. Qaf.






not oldest makes no difference if spelled with/without “ya” or written in English.

See response here:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610294.msg424290#msg424290



16:43, 21:7… فسلوا so ask ye of اهل individuals الذكر l-dhik'ri/the reminder …

21:105 ولقد and surely كتبنا decree we of فى in الزبور l-zabūri من from بعد after الذكر l-dhik'ri/the reminder

....

54:23-25 كذبت denied they ثمود thamud … االقى has cast الذكر l-dhik'ri/the reminder علىه on him من from بىننا among-st us …


These verses don't refer to the Quran and are irrelevant to explain 15:6-9 an 41:41-42

Cross-reference is one method to explain certain verses, context is also important.

16:43, 21:7 refers to previous revelations.

ahl al-diker/people of the reminder -- refering to ---> ahl-al-kitaab/people of the book / people of the scripture =  Jews and  Christians ---> to ask them that previous messengers where ordinary humans.

21:105 refers to previous revelations before Al-zabūr / Psalms?

54:23-31  Referring to the message sent to Thamud.





...
38:1 ص saad والقران wal-qur'āni ذى owner  الذكر l-dhik'ri//the reminder
...

Referring to the Quran i. e.

Quran --> has function --> to remind --- e.g.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/17/41/default.htm

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/50/45/default.htm

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/54/17/default.htm
Same verse repeated in:54:22,  54:32,  54:40


Quran --> has  function --> to guide ---e.g.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/2/185/default.htm
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/17/9/default.htm


Quran --> has  function --> to warn---e.g.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/6/19/default.htm





The Question was, what is the Reminder/ Al-dhikr referring to in in 15:6-9 and 41:41-42.



The Reminder/ Al-dhikr refers to the Quran / the Book / the Scripture:


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/15/6/

15:6 And they say, "O you (to) whom has been sent down [on him] the Reminder / Al-dhikr, indeed, you (are) surely mad.


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/15/9/default.htm

15:9 Indeed, We We have sent down the Reminder/ Al-dhikr, and indeed, We of it (are) surely Guardians.


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/41/

41:41 Indeed, those who disbelieve in the Reminder / Al-dhikr when it comes to them. And indeed, it (is) surely a Book mighty.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/42/

41:42 Not comes to it the falsehood from before it and not from behind it. A Revelation from (the) All-Wise, (the) Praiseworthy.



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



do not have illness asking why know it’s simple numerology nonsense.
peace!

Seems irrational i.e. those who disbelieve count, to prove that the Quran is a numerical structured preserved book revealed by God. (74:31)

Contradiction: that those who disbelieve  --> believe the Quran is from God.



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



Noon waalqalami

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #103 on: April 13, 2019, 06:35:00 AM »
Chapter and verse arrangement revealed not left to human desire.

What is the meaning of:

... warattalnāhu tartīlan             ..warattili l-qur'āna tartīlan

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/25/32/default.htm


peace -- means revealed in stages which "people" coalesced into chapter/verse #'s, etc.

Manuscript where some initials are as separated verses:

yes most all of oldest manuscripts have "ALL" initialed verses together as single verse.

conclusion: even a few examples should suffice that it was "human made" no big deal.


ibn_a

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #104 on: April 21, 2019, 03:11:45 AM »
Salaam,


peace -- means revealed in stages which "people" coalesced into chapter/verse #'s, etc.

Peace Noon,


I think arrange, organize  رتل is a  better translation / explanation  for ... warattalnāhu tartīlan.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/25/32/default.htm

And those who disbelieve say: Why is the Qur'an not revealed unto him all at once? ( i.e. why is the Quran  revealed  in stages ) thus that We may strengthen your heart by it;  and We have arranged it in right order..

Translating ... warattalnāhu tartīlan. as " revealed in stages ",  would just be repeating what "those who disbelieve say",  and it doesn't add any information.

waqāla alladhīna kafarū lawlā nuzzila ʿalayhi l-qur'ānu jum'latan wāḥidatan kadhālika linuthabbita bihi fuādaka warattalnāhu tartīlan

وقال الذين كفروا لولا نزل عليه القران جمله وحده كذلك لنثبت به فوادك ورتلنه ترتيلا

----

http://lisaan.net/search/%D8%B1%D8%AA%D9%84?cat=50

رتل      Ra Ta Lam

--------

If you observe the structure of the Quran you can clearly see that the arrangement in chapters and verses  was instructed and not left to human desire .

example:

- Chapter 2 has 286 verses,  why such a long chapter, compared to :

- Chapter 108 has only 3 verses:

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
انا اعطينك الكوثر
فصل لربك وانحر
ان شانيك هو الابتر


- The legth of 74:31 compared to the other verses in this chapter.
- Absence of the basmalah in chapter 9.
- Events repeated and scattered throughout the Quran :
       Moses and Pharaoh ,  Noah and his people , Adam and the angels/malaika, etc...


Human logic would expect:


- Chapters of approximately the same length.
- A chapter dedicated to each Prophet / Messenger, like chapter Joseph.
- A chapter about creation, Hereafter,...
- Historical order, etc...




yes most all of oldest manuscripts have "ALL" initialed verses together as single verse.

conclusion: even a few examples should suffice that it was "human made" no big deal.

Variation due to qiraa't, does not exclude that the current hafs manuscript was preserved and intended by God.
God challenges people to bring "something similar",  therefore arrangement in chapters and  verses and preservation by God and not human intervention.
What woud be the wisdom of revealing the Quran and leave the arrangement in chapters and verses to people's desire?


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/2/23/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/10/38/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/11/13/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/17/88/


------------------------------------


The Quran clearly indicates about a numerical structure:

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/30/default.htm

Over it (are) nineteen.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/31/default.htm
And not We have made keepers (of) the Fire except Angels. And not We have made their number except (as) a trial for those who disbelieve - that may be certain those who were given the Scripture and may increase those who believe (in) faith, and not may doubt those who were given the Scripture and the believers, and that may say those in their hearts (is) a disease and the disbelievers "What (does) intend Allah by this example?" Thus does let go astray Allah whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And none knows (the) hosts (of) your Lord except Him. And not it (is) but a reminder to (the) human beings.


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/72/28/
so as to make manifest that they have conveyed the messages of their Lord. He encompasses what they have, and has counted everything in numbers.

----

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/78/29/
And everything have We calculated / counted in writing / a book.

----

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/83/9/
A numerical / numbered / marked book.
-----

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/83/20/
A numerical / numbered / marked book.

-----
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/89/3/
And the even and the odd.

-----------------------------------------------------

And preservation:



The differences of cutting the Quranic text in verses (which affects the number of verses) in those manuscripts is probably due to the various qiraat (readings).
This are probably variations of an original manuscript.

The manuscript that has reached us and contains a numerical structure must be intended by God and can not be the result of a coincidence.
Numerous verses in the Quran referring to its preservation e.g.

15:9
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/15/9/

18:1-2
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/1/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/2/

41:41-42
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/41/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/42/

56:77-78
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/56/77/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/56/78/

72:28
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/72/28/

75:17-18-19
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/17/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/18/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/19/

85:21 -22
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/85/21/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/85/22/



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.