Author Topic: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...  (Read 18883 times)

jkhan

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #90 on: February 28, 2019, 06:30:34 PM »
Salaam,


Interesting observations about Al Qamar (The Moon ) in the Quran 


The Sidereal and Synodic Months


The sidereal month is the time the Moon takes to complete one full revolution around the Earth with respect to the background stars.

However, because the Earth is constantly moving along its orbit about the Sun, the Moon must travel slightly more than 360? to get from one new moon to the next.

Thus, the synodic month, or lunar month, is longer than the sidereal month.
 A sidereal month lasts 27.322 days, while a synodic month lasts 29.531 days.

animation:
http://www.sumanasinc.com/webcontent/animations/content/sidereal.html



The Arabic word " (al )qamar" meaning "(the) moon" is used 27 times in the Quran:



Translation:Muhammad Asad:

--------------------------------------------1--------------------------------------------
فلما را القمر بازغا قال هذا ربي فلما افل قال لين لم يهدني ربي لاكونن من
 القوم الضالين

6:77 Then, when he beheld the moon rising, he said, "This is my Sustainer!"-but when it went down, he said, "Indeed, if my Sustainer guide me not. I will most certainly become one of the people who go astray!"

--------------------------------------------2--------------------------------------------
فالق الاصباح وجعل اليل سكنا والشمس والقمر حسبانا ذلك تقدير العزيز العليم
6:96 [He is] the One who causes the dawn to break; and He has made the night to be [a source of] stillness, and the sun and the moon to run their appointed courses:  [all] this is laid down by the will of the Almighty, the All-Knowing.

--------------------------------------------3--------------------------------------------
ان ربكم الله الذي خلق السموت والارض في سته ايام ثم استوي علي العرش يغشي اليل النهار يطلبه حثيثا والشمس والقمر والنجوم مسخرت بامره الا له الخلق والامر تبارك الله رب العلمين
7:54 VERILY, your Sustainer is God, who has created the heavens and the earth in six aeons, and is established on the throne of His almightiness. He covers the day with the night in swift pursuit, with the sun and the moon and the stars subservient to His command: oh, verily, His is all creation and all command. Hallowed is God, the Sustainer of all the worlds!

--------------------------------------------4--------------------------------------------
هو الذي جعل الشمس ضيا والقمر نورا وقدره منازل لتعلموا عدد السنين والحساب ما خلق الله ذلك الا بالحق يفصل الايت لقوم يعلمون
10:5 He it is who has made the sun a [source of] radiant light and the moon a light [reflected],  and has determined for it phases so that you might know how to compute the years and to measure [time]. None of this has God created without [an inner] truth.  Clearly does He spell out these messages unto people of [innate] knowledge:

--------------------------------------------5--------------------------------------------
اذ قال يوسف لابيه يابت اني رايت احد عشر كوكبا والشمس والقمر رايتهم لي سجدين
12:4 LO! [7] Thus spoke Joseph unto his father: "O my father! Behold, I saw [in a dream] eleven stars, as well as the sun and the moon: I saw them prostrate themselves before me!"

--------------------------------------------6--------------------------------------------
الله الذي رفع السموت بغير عمد ترونها ثم استوي علي العرش وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري لاجل مسمي يدبر الامر يفصل الايت لعلكم بلقا ربكم توقنون
13:2 It is God who has raised the heavens without any supports that you could see, and is established on the throne of His almightiness; and He [it is who] has made the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws], each running its course for a term set [by Him]. He governs all that exists. Clearly does He spell out these messages, so that you might be certain in your innermost that you are destined to meet your Sustainer [on Judgment Day].

--------------------------------------------7--------------------------------------------
وسخر لكم الشمس والقمر دايبين وسخر لكم اليل والنهار
14:33 and has made the sun and the moon, both of them constant upon their courses, subservient [to His laws, so that they be of use] to you; and has made the night and the day subservient [to His laws, so that they be of use] to you.

--------------------------------------------8--------------------------------------------
وسخر لكم اليل والنهار والشمس والقمر والنجوم مسخرت بامره ان في ذلك لايت لقوم يعقلون
16:12 And He has made the night and the day and the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws, so that they be of use] to you;  and all the stars are subservient to His command: in this, behold, there are messages indeed for people who use their reason!

--------------------------------------------9--------------------------------------------
وهو الذي خلق اليل والنهار والشمس والقمر كل في فلك يسبحون
21:33 and [fail to see that] it is He who has created the night and the day and the sun and the moon - all of them floating through space!

--------------------------------------------10--------------------------------------------
الم تر ان الله يسجد له من في السموت ومن في الارض والشمس والقمر والنجوم والجبال والشجر والدواب وكثير من الناس وكثير حق عليه العذاب ومن يهن الله فما له من مكرم ان الله يفعل ما يشا
22:18 ART THOU NOT aware that before God prostrate themselves all [things and beings] that are in the heavens and all that are on earth  the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and the beasts? And many human beings [submit to God con?sciously],  whereas many [others, having defied Him,] will inevitably have to suffer [in the life to come];  and he whom God shall scorn [on Resur?rection Day] will have none who could bestow honour on him: for, verily, God does what He wills.

--------------------------------------------11--------------------------------------------
تبارك الذي جعل في السما بروجا وجعل فيها سرجا وقمرا منيرا
25:61 HALLOWED is He who has set up in the skies great constellations, and has placed among them a [radiant] lamp and a light-giving moon.

--------------------------------------------12--------------------------------------------
ولين سالتهم من خلق السموت والارض وسخر الشمس والقمر ليقولن الله فاني يوفكون
29:61 And thus it is [with most people]:  if thou ask them,  Who is it that has created the heavens and the earth, and made the sun and the moon subservi?ent [to His laws]?  - they will surely answer,  God.  How perverted, then, are their minds!

--------------------------------------------13--------------------------------------------
الم تر ان الله يولج اليل في النهار ويولج النهار في اليل وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري الي اجل مسمي وان الله بما تعملون خبير
31:29 Art thou not aware that it is God who makes the night grow longer by shortening the day, and makes the day grow longer by shortening the night, and that He has made the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws], each running its course for a term set [by Him]  and that God is fully aware of all that you do?

--------------------------------------------14--------------------------------------------
يولج اليل في النهار ويولج النهار في اليل وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري لاجل مسمي ذلكم الله ربكم له الملك والذين تدعون من دونه ما يملكون من قطمير
35:13 He makes the night grow longer by shortening the day, and He makes the day grow longer by shortening the night; and He has made the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws], each running its course for a term set [by Him]. Thus is God, your Sustainer: unto Him belongs all dominion - whereas those whom you invoke instead of Him do not own so much as the husk of a date-stone!

--------------------------------------------15--------------------------------------------
والقمر قدرنه منازل حتي عاد كالعرجون القديم
36:39 and [in] the moon, for which We have determined phases [which it must traverse] till it becomes like an old date-stalk, dried-up and curved:

--------------------------------------------16--------------------------------------------
لا الشمس ينبغي لها ان تدرك القمر ولا اليل سابق النهار وكل في فلك يسبحون
36:40 [and] neither may the sun overtake the moon, nor can the night usurp the time of day,  since all of them float through space [in accordance with Our laws].

--------------------------------------------17--------------------------------------------
خلق السموت والارض بالحق يكور اليل علي النهار ويكور النهار علي اليل وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري لاجل مسمي الا هو العزيز الغفر
39:5 He it is who has created the heavens and the earth in accordance with [an inner] truth.  He causes the night to flow into the day, and causes the day to flow into the night; and He has made the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws], each running its course for a term set [by Him].  Is not He the Almighty, the All-Forgiving?

--------------------------------------------18--19------------------------------------------
ومن ايته اليل والنهار والشمس والقمر لا تسجدوا للشمس ولا للقمر واسجدوا لله الذي خلقهن ان كنتم اياه تعبدون
41:37 Now among His signs are the night and the day, as well as the sun and the moon: [hence,] adore not the sun or the moon, but prostrate yourselves in adoration before God, who has created them - if it is Him whom you [really] worship.

--------------------------------------------20--------------------------------------------
اقتربت الساعه وانشق القمر
54:1 THE LAST HOUR draws near, and the moon is split asunder!

--------------------------------------------21--------------------------------------------
الشمس والقمر بحسبان
55:5 [At His behest] the sun and the moon run their appointed courses;

--------------------------------------------22--------------------------------------------
وجعل القمر فيهن نورا وجعل الشمس سراجا
71:16 and has set up within them the moon as a light [reflected] and set up the sun as a [radiant] lamp?

--------------------------------------------23--------------------------------------------
كلا والقمر
74:32 NAY, but consider the moon!

--------------------------------------------24--------------------------------------------
وخسف القمر
75:8 and the moon is darkened,

--------------------------------------------25--------------------------------------------
وجمع الشمس والقمر
75:9 and the sun and the moon are brought together

--------------------------------------------26--------------------------------------------
والقمر اذا اتسق
84:18 and the moon, as it grows to its fullness

--------------------------------------------27--------------------------------------------
والقمر اذا تليها
91:2 and the moon as it reflects the sun!


----------------------

Only one of these 27 occurrences ( of Qamar, Moon) is an indefinite ( نكرة  ) noun:

25:61 HALLOWED is He who has set up in the skies great constellations, and has placed among them a [radiant] lamp and a light-giving moon

تبارك الذي جعل في السما بروجا وجعل فيها سرجا وقمرا منيرا

and a moon.............wa qamaran .............. وقمرا

and this is the 2916 th verse from the beginning of the Quran:

2916 = 54 x 54

54 is the number of chapter Al Qamar (The Moon )

https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir34104/#.XHZlzqBCeCh

----------------------

The moon  ( Al Qamar القمر )  is related to the lunar month.

9:36   https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/9/36/default.htm

BEHOLD, the number of months, in the sight of God, is twelve months, [laid down] in God's decree on the day when He created the heavens and the earth; [and] out of these, four are sacred: this is the ever-true law [of God]. Do not, then, sin against yourselves with regard to these [months]. And fight against those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God, all together-just as they fight against you, [O believers,] all together -and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him.
(translation:Muhammad Asad)

ان عده الشهور عند الله اثنا عشر شهرا في كتب الله يوم خلق السموت والارض منها اربعه حرم ذلك الدين القيم فلا تظلموا فيهن انفسكم وقتلوا المشركين كافه كما يقتلونكم كافه واعلموا ان الله مع المتقين

The word "month ; shahr شهر , الشهر ,  شهرا  " in singular form is mentioned 12 times in the Quran.
                                           
Count   Chapter verse    Arabic word    Transliteration
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1                2:185                    شهر                     shahr
2                2:185                   الشهر                    al-shahr
3                2:194                   الشهر                    al-shahr
4                2:194                  بالشهر                    bil-shahr
5                2:217                   الشهر                    al-shahr
6                5:2                       الشهر                    al-shahr
7                5:97                    والشهر                   wal-shahr
8                9:36                    شهرا                      shahran
9               34:12                    شهر                     shahr
10             34:12                    شهر                     shahr
11             46:15                   شهرا                     shahran
12             97:3                      شهر                    shahr


Another interesting observation that seems referring to number 12 in chapter 54.

The first letters of the verses in chapter 54 Al Qamar (The Moon ) consist of 12 different letters.

 
count         number of times         different letters   
1                  و                         19      
2                  ا                         11        
3                  ف                         10      
4                   ك                         5      
5                   س                         2      
6                   ت                         2      
7                   ي                         1                       
8                   ب                         1      
9                   ن                         1               
10                  م                         1                 
11                  خ                         1                 
12                  ح                         1    



http://www.alargam.com/prove2/burhan4/3.htm
www.alargam.com/prove2/burhan4/
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=%24hr


---------------------------


An indication in the Quran in (chapter 54- The Moon  Al Qamar , 1) referring to the landing on the moon.

54:1- The Hour has come closer and the moon has split (shaqqa).

iq'tarabati l-sāʿatu wa-inshaqqa l-qamaru

اقتربت الساعه وانشق القمر


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/54/1/default.htm




There is another indication in the Quran in the above verse referring to the landing on the moon. In order to have a better insight into this, let us dwell on the connotation of the Arabic word ?shaqqa? which, among its multifarious meanings, signifies ?rending asunder,? ?splitting,? ?fissuring;? it may also signify plowing the soil.

    25- We pour forth water in abundance.
    (chapter 80- He Frowned, 25)

    26- And We split (shaqqa) the earth in fragments.
    (chapter 80- He Frowned, 26)

As we see, to describe the fissures made by water on the earth?s soil, the same word ?shaqqa? is used. One of the most important events that occasioned man?s visit to the moon was the sampling of the soil on the surface of the moon. The surface of the moon was fissured by man for the first time in history. The term ?shaqqa? may refer to this cleavage.

We have examined the 1st verse of the sura ?The Moon.? The 2nd verse of the same sura addresses the wrongdoers who preferred to ignore the evidences of God.

 
    2- Yet if they see a sign they turn away and they say, ?A continuous sorcery!?
    (chapter 54- The Moon, 2)


http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/05/journey-to-the-moon/



The number of verses after 54:1 to the end of the Quran is 1389.

The year 1389 Hijri in the Muslim calendar corresponds to year 1969  in the Gregorian calendar, the year in which man landed on the moon for the first time
.


http://www.discoveringislam.org/mathematical_miracles.htm
https://www.gawaher.com/topic/738769-numerical-miracles-in-the-quran-real-evidence/?do=findComment&comment=1258639



Gregorian to Hijri Calender (July 21, 1969)  :

https://www.islamicfinder.org/islamic-date-converter/
https://www.searchtruth.com/hijri/





sources:
http://www.sumanasinc.com/webcontent/animations/content/sidereal.html
http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03/the-orbit-of-the-moon/
https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir34104/#.XHZlzqBCeCh
http://www.discoveringislam.org/mathematical_miracles.htm
https://www.gawaher.com/topic/738769-numerical-miracles-in-the-quran-real-evidence/?do=findComment&comment=1258639
Quran Uthmani Script
The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)
http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/...07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9obKsQW-2LlazNfQjRGYS1ORlk/view


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

25:61 .....in this verse... Which MOON  you are talking about....  :rotfl:

ibn_a

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #91 on: March 22, 2019, 09:00:05 AM »
Salaam,


whoever is dealing with these numbers is really appreciable and hard work and the results are phenomenon
God bless you all to find more  :bravo:

Peace jkhan,
I agree.



25:61 .....in this verse... Which MOON  you are talking about....  :rotfl:

Those who accept  a "flat earth model"  will have different understanding
of some verses than those who accept a  "heliocentric model".

Btw off-topic here.

ibn_a

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #92 on: March 22, 2019, 09:10:15 AM »
Salaam,



The Metonic cycle .

For astronomy and calendar studies, the Metonic cycle or Enneadecaeteris (from Ancient Greek: ἐννεακαιδεκαετηρίς, "nineteen years") is a period of very close to 19 years that is nearly a common multiple of the solar year and the synodic (lunar) month. The Greek astronomer Meton of Athens (fifth century BC) observed that a period of 19 years is almost exactly equal to 235 synodic months and, rounded to full days, counts 6,940 days. The difference between the two periods (of 19 solar years and 235 synodic months) is only a few hours, depending on the definition of the year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonic_cycle



- In the Quran the words "sun, shams" and "moon, qamar " are mentioned toghether 19 times in 18 verses.


- The 19th time the words "sun, shams" and "moon, qamar "  appear together in the Quran is in chapter 75 verse 9:


75:9 and the sun and the moon are brought together.

        wajumiʿa l-shamsu wal-qamaru

        وَجُمِعَ الشَّمْسُ وَالْقَمَرُ

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/9/default.htm




--------------------------------------------1--------------------------------------------
فالق الاصباح وجعل اليل سكنا والشمس والقمر حسبانا ذلك تقدير العزيز العليم
6:96 [He is] the One who causes the dawn to break; and He has made the night to be [a source of] stillness, and the sun and the moon to run their appointed courses:  [all] this is laid down by the will of the Almighty, the All-Knowing.


--------------------------------------------2--------------------------------------------
ان ربكم الله الذي خلق السموت والارض في سته ايام ثم استوي علي العرش يغشي اليل النهار يطلبه حثيثا والشمس والقمر والنجوم مسخرت بامره الا له الخلق والامر تبارك الله رب العلمين
7:54 VERILY, your Sustainer is God, who has created the heavens and the earth in six aeons, and is established on the throne of His almightiness. He covers the day with the night in swift pursuit, with the sun and the moon and the stars subservient to His command: oh, verily, His is all creation and all command. Hallowed is God, the Sustainer of all the worlds!


--------------------------------------------3--------------------------------------------
هو الذي جعل الشمس ضيا والقمر نورا وقدره منازل لتعلموا عدد السنين والحساب ما خلق الله ذلك الا بالحق يفصل الايت لقوم يعلمون
10:5 He it is who has made the sun a [source of] radiant light and the moon a light [reflected],  and has determined for it phases so that you might know how to compute the years and to measure [time]. None of this has God created without [an inner] truth.  Clearly does He spell out these messages unto people of [innate] knowledge:


--------------------------------------------4--------------------------------------------
اذ قال يوسف لابيه يابت اني رايت احد عشر كوكبا والشمس والقمر رايتهم لي سجدين
12:4 LO! [7] Thus spoke Joseph unto his father: "O my father! Behold, I saw [in a dream] eleven stars, as well as the sun and the moon: I saw them prostrate themselves before me!"


--------------------------------------------5--------------------------------------------
الله الذي رفع السموت بغير عمد ترونها ثم استوي علي العرش وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري لاجل مسمي يدبر الامر يفصل الايت لعلكم بلقا ربكم توقنون
13:2 It is God who has raised the heavens without any supports that you could see, and is established on the throne of His almightiness; and He [it is who] has made the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws], each running its course for a term set [by Him]. He governs all that exists. Clearly does He spell out these messages, so that you might be certain in your innermost that you are destined to meet your Sustainer [on Judgment Day].


--------------------------------------------6--------------------------------------------
وسخر لكم الشمس والقمر دايبين وسخر لكم اليل والنهار
14:33 and has made the sun and the moon, both of them constant upon their courses, subservient [to His laws, so that they be of use] to you; and has made the night and the day subservient [to His laws, so that they be of use] to you.


--------------------------------------------7--------------------------------------------
وسخر لكم اليل والنهار والشمس والقمر والنجوم مسخرت بامره ان في ذلك لايت لقوم يعقلون
16:12 And He has made the night and the day and the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws, so that they be of use] to you;  and all the stars are subservient to His command: in this, behold, there are messages indeed for people who use their reason!


-------------------------------------------8--------------------------------------------
وهو الذي خلق اليل والنهار والشمس والقمر كل في فلك يسبحون
21:33 and [fail to see that] it is He who has created the night and the day and the sun and the moon - all of them floating through space!


--------------------------------------------9--------------------------------------------
الم تر ان الله يسجد له من في السموت ومن في الارض والشمس والقمر والنجوم والجبال والشجر والدواب وكثير من الناس وكثير حق عليه العذاب ومن يهن الله فما له من مكرم ان الله يفعل ما يشا
22:18 ART THOU NOT aware that before God prostrate themselves all [things and beings] that are in the heavens and all that are on earth the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and the beasts? And many human beings [submit to God con?sciously],  whereas many [others, having defied Him,] will inevitably have to suffer [in the life to come];  and he whom God shall scorn [on Resur?rection Day] will have none who could bestow honour on him: for, verily, God does what He wills.


--------------------------------------------10--------------------------------------------
ولين سالتهم من خلق السموت والارض وسخر الشمس والقمر ليقولن الله فاني يوفكون
29:61 And thus it is [with most people]:  if thou ask them,  Who is it that has created the heavens and the earth, and made the sun and the moon subservi?ent [to His laws]?  - they will surely answer,  God.  How perverted, then, are their minds!


--------------------------------------------11--------------------------------------------
الم تر ان الله يولج اليل في النهار ويولج النهار في اليل وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري الي اجل مسمي وان الله بما تعملون خبير
31:29 Art thou not aware that it is God who makes the night grow longer by shortening the day, and makes the day grow longer by shortening the night, and that He has made the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws], each running its course for a term set [by Him]  and that God is fully aware of all that you do?


--------------------------------------------12--------------------------------------------
يولج اليل في النهار ويولج النهار في اليل وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري لاجل مسمي ذلكم الله ربكم له الملك والذين تدعون من دونه ما يملكون من قطمير
35:13 He makes the night grow longer by shortening the day, and He makes the day grow longer by shortening the night; and He has made the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws], each running its course for a term set [by Him]. Thus is God, your Sustainer: unto Him belongs all dominion - whereas those whom you invoke instead of Him do not own so much as the husk of a date-stone!


--------------------------------------------13--------------------------------------------
لا الشمس ينبغي لها ان تدرك القمر ولا اليل سابق النهار وكل في فلك يسبحون
36:40 [and] neither may the sun overtake the moon, nor can the night usurp the time of day,  since all of them float through space [in accordance with Our laws].


--------------------------------------------14--------------------------------------------
خلق السموت والارض بالحق يكور اليل علي النهار ويكور النهار علي اليل وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري لاجل مسمي الا هو العزيز الغفر
39:5 He it is who has created the heavens and the earth in accordance with [an inner] truth.  He causes the night to flow into the day, and causes the day to flow into the night; and He has made the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws], each running its course for a term set [by Him].  Is not He the Almighty, the All-Forgiving?


--------------------------------------------15--16------------------------------------------
ومن ايته اليل والنهار والشمس والقمر لا تسجدوا للشمس ولا للقمر واسجدوا لله الذي خلقهن ان كنتم اياه تعبدون
41:37 Now among His signs are the night and the day, as well as the sun and the moon: [hence,] adore not the sun or the moon, but prostrate yourselves in adoration before God, who has created them - if it is Him whom you [really] worship.


--------------------------------------------17--------------------------------------------
الشمس والقمر بحسبان
55:5 [At His behest] the sun and the moon run their appointed courses;


--------------------------------------------18--------------------------------------------
وجعل القمر فيهن نورا وجعل الشمس سراجا
71:16 and has set up within them the moon as a light [reflected] and set up the sun as a [radiant] lamp?


--------------------------------------------19--------------------------------------------
وجمع الشمس والقمر
75:9 and the sun and the moon are brought together

---------------




والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonic_cycle
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/9/default.htm
http://www.discoveringislam.org/mathematical_miracles.htm
Quran Uthmani Script
The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)
http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/...07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9obKsQW-2LlazNfQjRGYS1ORlk/view



Noon waalqalami

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #93 on: March 23, 2019, 08:10:00 AM »
- In the Quran the words "sun, shams" and "moon, qamar " are mentioned toghether 19 times in 18 verses.

peace, since verse numbers are man-made; obviously not included in revelation evident looking at the earlier manuscripts and were mainly used by scribes as checksum and for quick reference (as today); therefore, combine below and now have (20) occurrences in (19) verses which is also meaningless other than numerology infatuation.

91:1-2 والشمس wal-shamsi/and the sun وضحها and brightness its والقمر wal-qamari/and the moon اذا when تلها follows it

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/2?handschrift=481


ibn_a

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #94 on: March 26, 2019, 09:36:10 AM »
Salaam,


peace, since verse numbers are man-made; obviously not included in revelation evident looking at the earlier manuscripts and were mainly used by scribes as checksum and for quick reference (as today);
91:1-2 والشمس wal-shamsi/and the sun وضحها and brightness its والقمر wal-qamari/and the moon اذا when تلها follows it
...

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/2?handschrift=481



Peace Noon,

Also answered in previous pages e.g.
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610157.msg419600#msg419600

And why post this manuscript and not thoses manuscripts where the first verse of chapter 91 is :

91:1 By the sun and its brightness.
wal-shamsi waḍuḥāhā.
وَالشَّمْسِ وَضُحَىٰهَا

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/91/1/default.htm


e.g. this manuscript:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/1?handschrift=170





or this manuscript:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/1?handschrift=56




The differences of cutting the Quranic text in verses (which affects the number of verses) in those manuscripts is probably due to the various qiraat (readings).
This are probably variations of an original manuscript.

The manuscript that has reached us and contains a numerical structure must be intended by God and can not be the result of a coincidence.
Numerous verses in the Quran referring to its preservation e.g.

15:9
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/15/9/

18:1-2
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/1/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/2/

41:41-42
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/41/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/42/

56:77-78
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/56/77/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/56/78/

72:28
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/72/28/

75:17-18-19
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/17/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/18/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/19/

85:21 -22
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/85/21/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/85/22/



... therefore, combine below and now have (20) occurrences in (19) verses which is also meaningless other than numerology infatuation.

Posting this in a thread named?   

... And He has counted everything in numbers ... from 72:28

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/72/28/default.htm

so as to make manifest that they have conveyed the messages of their Lord. He encompasses what they have, and has counted everything in numbers .

liyaʿlama an qad ablaghū risālāti rabbihim wa-aḥāṭa bimā ladayhim wa-aḥṣā kulla shayin ʿadadan


---------------------

Your opposition to the numerical structure of the Quran is illogical and seems in contradiction with your understanding of 74:30-31.

According to your understanding 74:30-31 prophesies that those who disbelieve, will count and search for multiples of number 19  and patterns. (seems irrational i.e. those who disbelief, trying to prove that the Quran is a revelation from God and a numerical structured preserved book).

And why oppose a fulfilled Prophecy, according to your understanding of 74:30-31?


---------------------


How is it possible to deny evidence like this:

God revealed number 19 and indicates to other numbers and explains the purposes e.g. 74:31 and 72:28,  evident if read in context and use logique, otherwise irrational explanations.

some examples simple and clear:

-The Quran has 114 chapters : 114 = 19 x 6.

-The Basmalah occurs 114 times, despite its absence in chapter 9 it occurs twice in chapter 27

-The basmala has 19 letters

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

- From the missing Basmalah in chapter 9 to the inside Basmalah in chapter 27, there are 19 chapters

- Number 9 is mentioned in two verses in chapter 27, each at a 19- verse distance from the inside basmalah( Number 9 is mentioned only 4 times in the Quran, so it is very unlikely that this two occurrences of number 9 in chapter 27 at a 19- verse distance from the inside basmalah are the result of a coincidence)

More about the link between chapter 9 and chapter 27.

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610099.0


-The 19 th chapter from the end of the Quran has 19 verses.

-The Quran mentions 30 different whole numbers:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

10 11 12 19 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 99

100 200 300

1000 2000 3000 5000 50000 100000


The sum of these numbers = 162146 = 19 x 8534.


- There is only one chapter in the Quran that ends with the name " Allah " , this chapter has 19 verses
and this is the 19 th occurrance of the name" Allah " from the end of the Quran.

- Chapter 16 the Bee and the number of chromosomes.
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610157.0

Very clear example and evidence for an objective observer.( but some might say that chapter "The Bee" is the 15 th chapter,  assembling chapter 8 and chapter 9 in one chapter )

- The odd - even symmetry 6555 - 6236
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610157.msg419600#msg419600

- Numerous other examples:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?board=54.0
etc, ....


---------------------


-  Some critises and try to discredit the numerical structure of the Quran by pointing out to errors and exaggerations of some results or/and an illogical explanation for 74:31 and other verses referring to the numerical structure of the Quran.

- Others try to cover up this number 19 by going as far as saying that the Quran consists of 113 chapters ( saying that chapter 8 and chapter 9 are one chapter )

- Others say that the basmalah has from 20 to 23 letters:

-- Some see an extra letter letter Ra ر because of the "Chedda ( diacritics for reading purpose ) on the letter Ra ر "in Al Rahman and Al Raheem  الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ

-- Others want an extra Alif in the name Al Rahman.

-- Others say that there should be an extra alif in the word bismi بِسْمِ , like in bismi Rabbika 96:1 بِاسْمِ رَبِّكَ

- Some claim that the results are 1/19.
whatever result one can always claim it is a coincidence, 1/19, numerology, etc....

What would be the reaction  of the author of a book containing patterns based on number 19 and/or other numbers, to those claiming that these patterns are not intended by the author, but the result of a coincidence or 1/19 or 1/... or  numerology, etc...


- Some still asking, like predicted in 74:31:

...“What does God mean by this example?”...
... matha arada Allahu bihatha mathalan ?
... مَاذَا أَرَادَ اللَّهُ بِهَٰذَا مَثَلًا ...


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/31/default.htm


- Others want to (do not) believe in the numerical structure of the Quran but with the condition that the patterns should conform to their expectations.


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/26/4/default.htm

If (such) were Our Will, We could send down to them from the sky a Sign, to which they would bend their necks in humility.

in nasha nunazzil ʿalayhim mina l-samāi āyatan faẓallat aʿnāquhum lahā khāḍiʿīna

إِن نَّشَأْ نُنَزِّلْ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ السَّمَاءِ ءَايَةً فَظَلَّتْ أَعْنَٰقُهُمْ لَهَا خَٰضِعِينَ



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



Noon waalqalami

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #95 on: March 26, 2019, 05:39:37 PM »
e.g. this manuscript:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/1?handschrift=170

or this manuscript:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/1?handschrift=56

The differences of cutting the Quranic text in verses (which affects the number of verses) in those manuscripts is probably due to the various qiraat (readings).
This are probably variations of an original manuscript.

The manuscript that has reached us and contains a numerical structure must be intended by God and can not be the result of a coincidence.

peace,

Not about different readings see oldest manuscripts time of revelation.
consistently don?t number initials, etc. rearrangement 100+ years later.

Numerous verses in the Quran referring to its preservation e.g.

15:9
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/15/9/

الذكر l-dhik'ra/the reminder not manuscript of evolving script.

18:1-2

this refers to the book?s "contents" and not structure.
3:99, 7:45, 786, 11:19, 14:3, 18:1 عوجا crookedness of

41:41-42

56:77-78

72:28

75:17-18-19

85:21 -22

not about man-made verse numbers or non-existent code.

And why oppose a fulfilled Prophecy, according to your understanding of 74:30-31?

74:31 وما and not جعلنا made we of عدتهم count theirs الا except فتنه infatuation (trial)


some examples simple and clear:

-The Quran has 114 chapters : 114 = 19 x 6.

books/hadith, chapters, door numbers, etc. have multiples that people freak out!

-The Basmalah occurs 114 times, despite its absence in chapter 9 it occurs twice in chapter 27

Ok, and they do not consistently include perhaps code 27 since it's 2nd or 27th occurrence!

-The basmala has 19 letters

Ok exactly 19 letters below 19th verse if include chapter title.

2:18 صم deaf بكم dumb عمى blind فهم so they لا not ىرجعون returning

- From the missing Basmalah in chapter 9 to the inside Basmalah in chapter 27, there are 19 chapters

Ok, try start counting from chapter 1 or 8 or backwards from 114.

- Number 9 is mentioned in two verses in chapter 27, each at a 19- verse distance from the inside basmalah( Number 9 is mentioned only 4 times in the Quran, so it is very unlikely that this two occurrences of number 9 in chapter 27 at a 19- verse distance from the inside basmalah are the result of a coincidence)

Not coincidence hunt and hide failed trials only show hits!

-The 19 th chapter from the end of the Quran has 19 verses.

Ok, and there are 98 (not multiple) verses in 19th chapter from beginning.

-The Quran mentions 30 different whole numbers:

30 / 19 = 1.57894736842

The sum of these numbers = 162146 = 19 x 8534.

try add sums all occurrences 5% probability.

- There is only one chapter in the Quran that ends with the name " Allah " , this chapter has 19 verses
and this is the 19 th occurrance of the name" Allah " from the end of the Quran.

from beginning 19th is 2:60 رزق provision الله the god
from end 19th occurrence 101:0 بسم in name الله the god
from beginning start verse i.e. 7th 2:15 الله the god

- Chapter 16 the Bee and the number of chromosomes.
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610157.0

16 or 128 is not multiple nor has to do with code.

- The odd - even symmetry 6555 - 6236

try adding/deleting even # of verses to any odd ch 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, etc.

- Numerous other examples:

Ok small chapter some say last revealed.

1. show which chapter it is use code whatever?
2. show how it is protected use code whatever?

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/110/vers/1?handschrift=481

ibn_a

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #96 on: March 31, 2019, 07:56:01 AM »
Salaam,


peace,

Not about different readings see oldest manuscripts time of revelation.
consistently don’t number initials, etc. rearrangement 100+ years later.
Peace Noon,

Not about man made or rearranged , rather variations (i.e. cutting the same text in verses) of an original source.

Example: The length of verse 31 compared to other verses in chapter 74.
(what was the source ?), why not cut verse 31 into more verses?


بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
يايها المدثر﴿1﴾ قم فانذر﴿2﴾ وربك فكبر﴿3﴾ وثيابك فطهر ﴿4﴾ والرجز فاهجر ﴿5﴾ ولا تمنن تستكثر ﴿6﴾ ولربك فاصبر﴿7﴾ فاذا نقر في الناقور﴿8﴾ فذلك يوميذ يوم عسير ﴿9﴾ علي الكفرين غير يسير﴿10﴾ذرني ومن خلقت وحيدا﴿11﴾وجعلت له مالا ممدودا﴿12﴾ وبنين شهودا ﴿13﴾ ومهدت له تمهيدا﴿14﴾ ثم يطمع ان ازيد ﴿15﴾ كلا انه كان لايتنا عنيدا ﴿16﴾ سارهقه صعودا ﴿17﴾انه فكر وقدر﴿18﴾ فقتل كيف قدر ﴿18﴾ ثم قتل كيف قدر ﴿20﴾ ثم نظر﴿21﴾ ثم عبس وبسر﴿22﴾ ثم ادبر واستكبر﴿23﴾ فقال ان هذا الا سحر يوثر﴿24﴾ ان هذا الا قول البشر ﴿25﴾ساصليه سقر﴿26﴾ وما ادريك ما سقر ﴿27﴾ لا تبقي ولا تذر ﴿28﴾ لواحه للبشر ﴿28﴾ عليها تسعه عشر ﴿30﴾ وما جعلنا اصحب النار الا مليكه وما جعلنا عدتهم الا فتنه للذين كفروا ليستيقن الذين اوتوا الكتب ويزداد الذين امنوا ايمنا ولا يرتاب الذين اوتوا الكتب والمومنون وليقول الذين في قلوبهم مرض والكفرون ماذا اراد الله بهذا مثلا كذلك يضل الله من يشا ويهدي من يشا وما يعلم جنود ربك الا هو وما هي الا ذكري للبشر﴿31﴾ كلا والقمر﴿32﴾واليل اذ ادبر﴿33﴾ والصبح اذا اسفر﴿34﴾ انها لاحدي الكبر ﴿35﴾ نذيرا للبشر ﴿36﴾ لمن شا منكم ان يتقدم او يتاخر ﴿37﴾ كل نفس بما كسبت رهينه ﴿38﴾ الا اصحب اليمين ﴿38﴾ في جنت يتسالون ﴿40﴾ عن المجرمين ﴿41﴾ ما سلككم في سقر ﴿42﴾ قالوا لم نك من المصلين ﴿43﴾ ولم نك نطعم المسكين ﴿44﴾ وكنا نخوض مع الخايضين ﴿45﴾ وكنا نكذب بيوم الدين﴿46﴾ حتي اتينا اليقين ﴿47﴾ فما تنفعهم شفعه الشفعين ﴿48﴾ فما لهم عن التذكره معرضين ﴿48﴾ كانهم حمر مستنفره﴿50﴾ فرت من قسوره ﴿51﴾ بل يريد كل امري منهم ان يوتي صحفا منشره ﴿52﴾ كلا بل لا يخافون الاخره ﴿53﴾ كلا انه تذكره ﴿54﴾ فمن شا ذكره ﴿55﴾ وما يذكرون الا ان يشا الله هو اهل التقوي واهل المغفره ﴿56﴾




------

An example of variations( cutting the same text in verses ) :
See manuscript you posted in and see manuscripts i posted here;

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610157.msg423891#msg423891

------

Example: Initial letters (in 29  chapters ) separated in first verse in 19 chapters, and part of first verse in 10 chapters. (what was the source ?), why not all saparated or all part of first verse?

Also answered about initials :

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610099.msg415581#msg415581

-------


Example: The spelling of the name IBRAHEEM ابرهم  in chapter 2 (15 occurrences )  without "ya ي" , and with "ya ي" in the rest of the Quran (54 occurrences), if the spelling of the name IBRAHEEM  in original manuscript was with "ya ي" , why was the spelling changed only in chapter 2 and not in the 24 other chapters.

It is more likely that original was spelled  without "ya ي" in chapter 2 and with "ya ي" in the 24 other chapters, and that some scribes added the letter "ya ي" in chapter 2 to conform to the rest of the manuscript, "thinking they were correcting an error" of  previous scribes, while this particular spelling seems intended.
In some "oldest manuscripts" with "ya ي"and in others whithout "ya ي" in chapter 2.

https://corpuscoranicum.de/


-------



الذكر l-dhik'ra/the reminder not manuscript of evolving script.

Could you explain what is " الذكر l-dhik'ra/the reminder" and how it is preserved.



this refers to the book’s "contents" and not structure.
3:99, 7:45, 786, 11:19, 14:3, 18:1 عوجا crookedness of

Yes, also possible explanation.



not about man-made verse numbers or non-existent code.

Could you explain,  refer to what?

41:41-42
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/41/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/42/

56:77-78
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/56/77/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/56/78/

72:28
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/72/28/

75:17-18-19
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/17/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/18/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/19/

85:21 -22
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/85/21/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/85/22/


74:31 وما and not جعلنا made we of عدتهم count theirs الا except فتنه infatuation (trial)

- 19 referring to a numerical structure as an answer in ( 74:30-31 ) to those claiming " human words" in 74:25 and
 fitna / difficulty / trial  for those who disbelieve/ reject,
certainty for some, increasing in faith for others and no doubt for others.

It does not seem a satisfying answer, to those who claim " human words" in 74:25 to
reveal a number without other meaning.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/25/default.htm

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/30/default.htm

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/31/default.htm





books/hadith, chapters, door numbers, etc. have multiples that people freak out!

?



Ok exactly 19 letters below 19th verse if include chapter title.

2:18 صم deaf بكم dumb عمى blind فهم so they لا not ىرجعون returning

The basmalah has 19 letters and is repeated 114 times.
Why would that exclude other verses consisting of 19 letters.



Ok, try start counting from chapter 1 or 8 or backwards from 114.

There is no link here ( chapter 1 and  8 ) , link between chapter 9 and 27 i.e. missing basmalah, extra basmalah.



Ok, and they do not consistently include perhaps code 27 since it's 2nd or 27th occurrence!
Not coincidence hunt and hide failed trials only show hits!

Inconceivable how an objective person can say "coincidence" about this, it is to obvious,  and that is also the reason why some try to cover up this number 19 by claiming 113 chapters,  20-23 letters in the basmalah, etc ....

Facts:

The Quran clearly mentioned this number 19 as a response to the claim " Human words 74: 25"

-The Quran has 114 chapters : 114 = 19 x 6.

-The Basmalah occurs 114 times, despite its absence in chapter 9 it occurs twice in chapter 27

-The basmala has 19 letters

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

- From the missing Basmalah in chapter 9 to the inside Basmalah in chapter 27, there are 19 chapters

- Number 9 is mentioned in two verses in chapter 27, each at a 19- verse distance from the inside basmalah( Number 9 is mentioned only 4 times in the Quran, so it is very unlikely that this two occurrences of number 9 in chapter 27 at a 19- verse distance from the inside basmalah are the result of a coincidence)

-The 19 th chapter from the end of the Quran has 19 verses.

- There is only one chapter in the Quran that ends with the name " Allah " , this chapter has 19 verses
and this is the 19 th occurrance of the name" Allah " from the end of the Quran.





Ok, and there are 98 (not multiple) verses in 19th chapter from beginning.

More subtle, i.e. the Quran uses 77 different numbers for the  total verses of  the chapters :

From largest to smallest, chapter 19 ( 98 verses) is the 19 th:

286 -- 227 -- 206 -- 200 -- 182 -- 176 -- 165 -- 135 -- 129 -- 128 -- 123 -- 120 -- 118 -- 112 -- 111 -- 110 -- 109 -- 99 -- 98 -- 96 -- 93 -- 89 -- 88 -- 85 -- 83 -- 78 -- 77 --  75 -- 73 -- 69 -- 64 -- 62 -- 60 -- 59 -- 56 -- 55 -- 54 -- 53 -- 52 -- 50 -- 49 -- 46 -- 45 -- 44 -- 43 -- 42 -- 40 -- 38 -- 37 -- 36 -- 35 -- 34 -- 31 -- 30 -- 29 -- 28 -- 26 -- 25 -- 24 --  22 -- 21 -- 20 -- 19 --18 -- 17 -- 15 -- 14 -- 13 -- 12 -- 11 -- 9 -- 8 -- 7 -- 6 -- 5 -- 4 -- 3






30 / 19 = 1.57894736842
try add sums all occurrences 5% probability.

Each person would have a different request.



from beginning 19th is 2:60 رزق provision الله the god
from end 19th occurrence 101:0 بسم in name الله the god
from beginning start verse i.e. 7th 2:15 الله the god

Not only about 19, numerous other examples in the name "Allah" in the Quran.



16 or 128 is not multiple nor has to do with code.

Not about code, about chapter 16 and the number of chromosomes of honey bee.

Read more here...

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610157.0




try adding/deleting even # of verses to any odd ch 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, etc.

Why so careful, add/delete randomly.


Ok small chapter some say last revealed.

1. show which chapter it is use code whatever?
2. show how it is protected use code whatever?

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/110/vers/1?handschrift=481

Not sure if there is, consider also that what is discovered is only a part, and some results contain errors, exaggerations and coincidences.

----------


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



Noon waalqalami

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #97 on: April 01, 2019, 12:12:13 AM »
Not about man made or rearranged , rather variations (i.e. cutting the same text in verses) of an original source.

peace, yes that's what it means man made rearrangements is cutting the same verses of an original source.

Example: The length of verse 31 compared to other verses in chapter 74.
(what was the source ?), why not cut verse 31 into more verses?

same reason 2:282 is longest verse and likewise 3:154 and 48:29 are the only two verses which contain all letters.

An example of variations( cutting the same text in verses )

Example: Initial letters (in 29  chapters ) separated in first verse in 19 chapters, and part of first verse in 10 chapters. (what was the source ?), why not all saparated or all part of first verse?

Example: The spelling of the name IBRAHEEM ابرهم  in chapter 2 (15 occurrences )  without "ya ي" , and with "ya ي" in the rest of the Quran...

no need to cite me examples I've thoroughly looked into it (more than anyone) including numerology nonsense; again look at "the oldest" manuscripts see that all initials were consistently together likewise ا ب ره ى م Abraham consistently spelled in every chapter then ~100-150 years later there was a revision, numerous alif's added, verses rearranged, etc.

Could you explain what is " الذكر l-dhik'ra/the reminder" and how it is preserved.

Could you explain,  refer to what?

41:41-42

56:77-78

72:28

75:17-18-19

85:21 -22

it is continuous 16:43 فسلوا so ask ye of اهل individuals الذكر l-dhik'ri/the reminder ان if كنتم be you لا not تعلمون thou knowing

hence the reminder similar to a file retrieved from "the cloud" no need to preserve or back it up since it's downloadable

- 19 referring to a numerical structure as an answer in ( 74:30-31 ) to those claiming " human words" in 74:25

?

The basmalah has 19 letters and is repeated 114 times.

Inconceivable how an objective person can say "coincidence" about this, it is to obvious ...

Facts:

NOT coincidence hunting multiples showing hits, hiding failures, including/excluding chapter titles, etc. may also lead to Arithmomania  mental disorder/disease obsessive?compulsive disorder (OCD) need to count everything around them including number of posts, etc.

NOT about structure/code; verses pertain to those who reject...

66:6  علىها over her/it ملىكه controllers غلاظ stern شدد severe

74:22 ثم furthermore عبس he frowned وبسر and scowled
74:23 ثم furthermore ادبر departs واستكبر and acts arrogant
74:24 فقل so said ان indeed هذا this الا except سحر magic ىوثر imitated
74:25 ان indeed هذا this الا except قول speech البشر the mortal
74:26 ساصلىه soon I will drive him سقر abyss
74:27 وما and what ادراك to make know you ما what سقر abyss?
74:28 لا not تبقى lets remain ولا and not تذر leave
74:29 لوحه scorching للبشر to the mortal
74:30 علىها over her/it تسعه nonet [group of (9)] عشر ten (10) [group of (19)]
74:31 وما and not جعلنا made we of اصحب companions النار the fire الا except ملىكه controllers (angels) وما and not جعلنا made we of عدتهم count theirs الا except فتنه trial للذىن for the ones كفروا reject they of ...



Why so careful, add/delete randomly.

the verses were clearly numbered by scribes (not random, that's what they said, likewise added chapter titles as well) it's a simple grid used as checksum and balance easily done with billions of combinations. e.g. took two chapters from bible Gospel of Matthew and Acts since they each have 28 chapters and cut up a couple of verses (took only 10 minutes although longer to format) have a look perfectly balanced with countless combinations and to my surprise totals were multiples! Coincidence?

ch    vrs    ch+v            odd            even    0=e 1=o    oo    oe eo    ee       
         
1    25        26            0    0        26    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
2    23        25            1    25        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
3    17        20            0    0        20    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
4    25        29            1    29        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
5    38        43            1    43        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
6    34        40            0    0        40    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
7    29        36            0    0        36    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
8    34        42            0    0        42    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
9    28        37            1    37        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
10    42        52            0    0        52    1        0    0        0    0    0    1           
11    30        41            1    41        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
12    50        62            0    0        62    1        0    0        0    0    0    1           
13    48        61            1    61        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
14    27        41            1    41        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
15    39        54            0    0        54    1        1    1        1    0    0    0           
16    28        44            0    0        44    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
17    27        44            0    0        44    1        1    1        1    0    0    0           
18    25        43            1    43        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
19    20        39            1    39        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
20    34        54            0    0        54    1        0    0        0    0    0    1           
21    36        57            1    57        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
22    46        68            0    0        68    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
23    39        62            0    0        62    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
24    41        65            1    65        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0           
25    36        61            1    61        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
26    65        91            1    91        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
27    67        94            0    0        94    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
28    19        47            1    47        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
         
Matt totals ................. 14                    14      14  14        7    7    7    7     
         
29    16        45            1    45        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
30    37        67            1    67        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
31    16        47            1    47        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
32    27        59            1    59        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
33    32        65            1    65        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
34    15        49            1    49        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
35    50        85            1    85        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
36    40        76            0    0        76    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
37    43        80            0    0        80    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
38    48        86            0    0        86    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
39    20        59            1    59        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
40    15        55            1    55        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
41    42        83            1    83        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
42    28        70            0    0        70    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
43    41        84            0    0        84    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
44    40        84            0    0        84    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
45    24        69            1    69        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
46    28        74            0    0        74    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
47    41        88            0    0        88    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
48    38        86            0    0        86    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
49    41        90            0    0        90    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
50    30        80            0    0        80    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
51    35        86            0    0        86    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
52    17        69            1    69        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
53    27        80            0    0        80    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
54    23        77            1    77        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
55    45        100         0    0        100    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
56    31        87            1    87        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
         
Acts totals ................. 14                    14      14  14        7    7    7    7     
         
1596 1862   3458        28 1596 1862   28     28    28      14  14  14  14         
84.0  98.0    182.0             84.0   98.0         
x 19  x 19    x 19               x 19    x 19                       

peace!


ibn_a

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #98 on: April 06, 2019, 12:03:14 AM »
Salaam,


peace, yes that's what it means man made rearrangements is cutting the same verses of an original source.

Peace Noon,

This is my understanding:


The differences of cutting the Quranic text in verses (which affects the number of verses) in those manuscripts is probably due to the various qiraat (readings).
This are probably variations of an original manuscript.

The manuscript that has reached us and contains a numerical structure must be
intended by God and can not be the result of a coincidence.
Numerous verses in the Quran referring to its preservation e.g.

15:9
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/15/9/

18:1-2
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/1/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/2/

41:41-42
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/41/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/42/

56:77-78
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/56/77/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/56/78/

72:28
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/72/28/

75:17-18-19
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/17/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/18/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/19/

85:21 -22
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/85/21/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/85/22/



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.






same reason 2:282 is longest verse and likewise 3:154 and 48:29 are the only two verses which contain all letters.

You say:" same reason", but don't explain what this "same reason" is.

The length of 74:31 compared to the other verses in this chapter is an indication that this is an intended structure and not an "arbitrary man made cutting of the text in verses".

The length of the chapters seems also to be part of this structure, i.e. in the Quran there are very short chapters and long chapters:

Examlpe: chapter 2  has almost the same length(considering the number of letters) as  the last 53 chapters of the Quran.

Examlpe: 2:282  has the same length(considering the number of letters) as  the 8 shortest chapters of the Quran.
 
It seems that his structure is intended and there is wisdom behind it.
The numerical structure could be one of the reasons for this arrangement.






no need to cite me examples I've thoroughly looked into it (more than anyone) including numerology nonsense; again look at "the oldest" manuscripts see that all initials were consistently together ...

Not in all "the oldest" manuscripts, Here is one of the "oldest manuscript"(Or. 2165 ) where some of the initials are as a separated verses, which show some resemblance with the current hafs reading concerning the initials.



More information about this manuscript (Or. 2165 )
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date

    Second half of the 1st century of hijra.

    The dating of B. L. Or. 2165 has an interesting history.[1] William Wright was perhaps the first scholar to publish this manuscript and he dated it to the 8th century CE.[2] This date was accepted by Josef von Karabacek who dated the manuscript to the early 8th century CE, i.e., the end of the 1st century of hijra or the beginning of the 2nd century.[3] On the other hand, based on a careful evaluation of the palaeographic considerations, Adolf Grohmann dated this manuscript to the 1st century of hijra.[4] Furthermore, Noseda places this manuscript in the 1st century of hijra.[5]

    For reasons which remain unelaborated, Martin Lings and Yasin Safadi dated B. L. Or. 2165 to the late 2nd century of hijra (i.e., 8th century CE).[6] However, a study by Dutton has shown that this manuscript is remarkably similar to the 1st century Qur'anic manuscript Arabe 328a in the Biblioth?que Nationale, Paris, suggesting that it was written in the qira'at of Ibn ʿAmir.[7] This manuscript was recently studied by Intisar A. Rabb, who corrected Dutton's initial suggestion showing that it has the non–canonical Ḥimṣī reading.[8] Based on the similarity between Arabe 328a and B. L. Or. 2165, Dutton suggests re–dating this manuscript to the time just before the Umayyad Caliph Walid (r. 86–96 AH), i.e., within the period 30–85 AH with the latter end of this time scale being safer. The last part of first century hijra dating for this manuscript was also suggested by Rabb.[9] Thus, these studies confirm the earlier datings of Karabacek and Grohmann.
...
https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/mss/ms2165.html

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Manuscript where some initials are as separated verses.


http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=or_2165
f88v
30:1 الم Alif. Lam. Mim.


---------------




http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=or_2165
f91r
31:1 الم Alif. Lam. Mim.


---------------




http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=or_2165
f117r
42:1 حم عسق Ha. Mim.   Ayn. Sin. Qaf.



--------------------------------------------------------






...  likewise ا ب ره ى م Abraham consistently spelled in every chapter then ~100-150 years later there was a revision, numerous alif's added, verses rearranged, etc.

Moved this part of your post to: "TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM":

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610294.msg424177#msg424177






it is continuous 16:43 فسلوا so ask ye of اهل individuals الذكر l-dhik'ri/the reminder ان if كنتم be you لا not تعلمون thou knowing

hence the reminder similar to a file retrieved from "the cloud" no need to preserve or back it up since it's downloadable

In 16:43 what is continuous and who should ask what to who?

That does not explain what is "الذكر l-dhik'ri/the reminder" and how it is preserved?

The verse says: "preserved". 
You say: "no need to preserve", maybe explain better wat you mean.





NOT coincidence hunting multiples showing hits, hiding failures, including/excluding chapter titles, etc. may also lead to Arithmomania  mental disorder/disease obsessive–compulsive disorder (OCD) need to count everything around them including number of posts, etc.

NOT about structure/code; verses pertain to those who reject...

66:6  علىها over her/it ملىكه controllers غلاظ stern شدد severe

74:22 ثم furthermore عبس he frowned وبسر and scowled
74:23 ثم furthermore ادبر departs واستكبر and acts arrogant
74:24 فقل so said ان indeed هذا this الا except سحر magic ىوثر imitated
74:25 ان indeed هذا this الا except قول speech البشر the mortal
74:26 ساصلىه soon I will drive him سقر abyss
74:27 وما and what ادراك to make know you ما what سقر abyss?
74:28 لا not تبقى lets remain ولا and not تذر leave
74:29 لوحه scorching للبشر to the mortal
74:30 علىها over her/it تسعه nonet [group of (9)] عشر ten (10) [group of (19)]
74:31 وما and not جعلنا made we of اصحب companions النار the fire الا except ملىكه controllers (angels) وما and not جعلنا made we of عدتهم count theirs الا except فتنه trial للذىن for the ones كفروا reject they of ...


- Not about hiding -- see results and calculate probability.

- I don't think that 66:6 is relevant to explain 74:31
In 74:31  "The fitna, to have certainty, increase in faith, no doubt" ;  is not about Malāika / Angels,  but about " their number / ʿiddatahum / عدتهم"

- How does it make sense to reveal a number without meaning  as response to those who accuse the Quran to be "human words".





the verses were clearly numbered by scribes (not random, that's what they said, likewise added chapter titles as well) it's a simple grid used as checksum and balance easily done with billions of combinations. e.g. took two chapters from bible Gospel of Matthew and Acts since they each have 28 chapters and cut up a couple of verses (took only 10 minutes although longer to format) have a look perfectly balanced with countless combinations and to my surprise totals were multiples! Coincidence?

ch    vrs    ch+v            odd            even    0=e 1=o    oo    oe eo    ee       
         
1    25        26            0    0        26    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
2    23        25            1    25        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
3    17        20            0    0        20    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
4    25        29            1    29        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
5    38        43            1    43        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
6    34        40            0    0        40    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
7    29        36            0    0        36    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
8    34        42            0    0        42    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
9    28        37            1    37        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
10    42        52            0    0        52    1        0    0        0    0    0    1           
11    30        41            1    41        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
12    50        62            0    0        62    1        0    0        0    0    0    1           
13    48        61            1    61        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
14    27        41            1    41        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
15    39        54            0    0        54    1        1    1        1    0    0    0           
16    28        44            0    0        44    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
17    27        44            0    0        44    1        1    1        1    0    0    0           
18    25        43            1    43        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
19    20        39            1    39        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
20    34        54            0    0        54    1        0    0        0    0    0    1           
21    36        57            1    57        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
22    46        68            0    0        68    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
23    39        62            0    0        62    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
24    41        65            1    65        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0           
25    36        61            1    61        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
26    65        91            1    91        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
27    67        94            0    0        94    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
28    19        47            1    47        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
         
Matt totals ................. 14                    14      14  14        7    7    7    7     
         
29    16        45            1    45        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
30    37        67            1    67        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
31    16        47            1    47        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
32    27        59            1    59        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
33    32        65            1    65        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
34    15        49            1    49        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
35    50        85            1    85        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
36    40        76            0    0        76    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
37    43        80            0    0        80    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
38    48        86            0    0        86    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
39    20        59            1    59        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
40    15        55            1    55        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
41    42        83            1    83        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
42    28        70            0    0        70    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
43    41        84            0    0        84    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
44    40        84            0    0        84    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
45    24        69            1    69        0    0        1    0        0    1    0    0         
46    28        74            0    0        74    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
47    41        88            0    0        88    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
48    38        86            0    0        86    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
49    41        90            0    0        90    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
50    30        80            0    0        80    1        0    0        0    0    0    1         
51    35        86            0    0        86    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
52    17        69            1    69        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
53    27        80            0    0        80    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
54    23        77            1    77        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
55    45        100         0    0        100    1        1    1        1    0    0    0         
56    31        87            1    87        0    0        0    1        0    0    1    0         
         
Acts totals ................. 14                    14      14  14        7    7    7    7     
         
1596 1862   3458        28 1596 1862   28     28    28      14  14  14  14         
84.0  98.0    182.0             84.0   98.0         
x 19  x 19    x 19               x 19    x 19                       

peace!

Working "backwards" i.e. imitate,replicate a pattern after it becomes known.
Adapting the number of verses to obtain symmetry. Done on purpose not randomly,




والله اعلم
Allah knows best.
......................................


Noon waalqalami

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Re: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ...
« Reply #99 on: April 06, 2019, 10:23:44 AM »
peace ibn_a

This is my understanding:

You say:" same reason", but don't explain what this "same reason" is.

The length of 74:31 compared to the other verses in this chapter is an indication that this is an intended structure and not an "arbitrary man made cutting of the text in verses".

The length of the chapters seems also to be part of this structure, i.e. in the Quran there are very short chapters and long chapters:

Examlpe: chapter 2  has almost the same length(considering the number of letters) as  the last 53 chapters of the Quran.

Examlpe: 2:282  has the same length(considering the number of letters) as  the 8 shortest chapters of the Quran.
 
It seems that his structure is intended and there is wisdom behind it.
The numerical structure could be one of the reasons for this arrangement.

Again chapter/verses is simple human made arrangement for easy reference and checksum.

Not in all "the oldest" manuscripts, Here is one of the "oldest manuscript"(Or. 2165 ) where some of the initials are as a separated verses, which show some resemblance with the current hafs reading concerning the initials.

Yes know manuscript (not oldest) some initialed verses resemble current while others do not.
Or.2165 dating from the eighth century (701 to 800 CE) over two-thirds of the complete text.

Sūrah 7:40 - Sūrah 9:96
Sūrah 10: 9 - Sūrah 39:48
Sūrah 40:63 - Sūrah 43:71

http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/asian-and-african/2016/04/the-british-librarys-oldest-quran-manuscript-now-online.html

Have a look at chapters 19 and 29 for example which clearly initials are together single verse.
Likewise check end 10th verse marker offset by one i.e. what should be 29:11 was 29:12, etc.



Moved this part of your post to: "TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM":

Again look at 1st century "the oldest" manuscripts ا ب ره ى م consistently spelled in 2nd chapter.
(no more comments on this end of discussion)

In 16:43 what is continuous and who should ask what to who?

That does not explain what is "الذكر l-dhik'ri/the reminder" and how it is preserved?

The verse says: "preserved". 
You say: "no need to preserve", maybe explain better wat you mean.

- How does it make sense to reveal a number without meaning  as response to those who accuse the Quran to be "human words".

Not about numerology, open separate topic/thread otherwise we?ll be all over the place.
Not about ?human words? (your assumption) makes sense simply read what it is about.

74:31 ? ولىقول and let speaketh/ask الذىن the ones فى in قلوبهم hearts theirs مرض illness والكفرون and the rejecting ماذا what hath اراد intends الله the god بهذا in this مثلا similitude of?
كذلك like such ىضل misguided الله the god من whom ىشا willed وىهدى and guided من whom ىشا willed ?


Working "backwards" i.e. imitate,replicate a pattern after it becomes known.
Adapting the number of verses to obtain symmetry. Done on purpose not randomly,

Again chapter/verses arrangements which there are several is clearly by humans (1. not part of revelation 2. they said verse #s added later) and only showed you an example how it was done which btw is superior with (5) multiple totals.

peace!