... And He has counted everything in numbers ...

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

Salaam,



Is your understandig of this part of verse 31 :

That the purpose of mentioning (a group of )19 is for disbelievers to count and search for multiples of 19 in the Quran ?



Explain your understanding of the rest of 74:31 ...

Yes, numerology simply read stop inquiring when purpose is clearly stated. Search "fitnah" by brother Ayman as well.

Peace!

- Why would those who  reject/disbelieve, count and search for multiples  of 19 and a pattern in tha Quran,  in order to prove that the Quran is a revelation from God and a numerical structured preserved book ?

- Consider also that "saqar" and its description and number 19 was a response to the accusation that the Quran is " magic and  words of a human". 74:24-25

------------



- Most of your post on other subjects  seems interesting and from a knowledgeable person , but i don't understand your harsh attitude against a possible numerical structure of the Quran.

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

Peace, no # 19 is not mentioned; rather "a group" of nineteen.

17:101/27:12 تسع nine (# 9) 
18:25 تسعا nine of (# 9)
38:23 تسع nine (# 9)

27:48 تسعه nonet (i.e. "group" of nine)

In arabic:
Number nineteen:  رقم تسعة عشر

http://arabic.speak7.com/arabic_numbers.htm

seem as in:

Quran:
74:30   Over it (are) nineteen : عليها تسعه عشر

74:29-30 لواحه scorching للبشر to the mortal علىها over her/it (feminine/hellfire NOT masculine/qur'an) تسعه nonet عشر ten ...
(i.e. "group" of nineteen malāikatun/controllers over hellfire!)

66:6 ... نارا fire of وقودها and fuel hers/its الناس the humankind والحجاره and the stone علىها over her/it ملىكه malāikatun/controllers ...

scorching:

74:29    لواحه للبشر
74:29    lawwāḥatun lil'bashar
74:29  " lawwāḥatun" to mortal man.

Other meanings beside  "scorching" for " lawwāḥatun" :

manifest, appeared, shone forth, became visible.

 علىها over her/it (feminine/hellfire NOT masculine/qur'an)

" It " refers to  " Saqar"

74:26  I will cast him in  "Saqar".
74:27  And what could make thee conceive what  "Saqar" is?
74:28  It does not spare nor leave.

74:29  Manifest/making visible to mortal man.
74:30  Over it (are)nineteen.

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

Peace All.
There is no doubt that GOD has "counted the numbers" in Qoran and issued a challenge to the generation that has the means(Technology/Science) to check it;
GOD is not asking anyone to be a mathematician or to receive salvation by mathematics, nor is GOD asking us to idolise numbers or ignore them completely. GOD is sending a clear message that Qoran is mathematically composed beyond a human knowledge and only GOD is capable of such a composition.
 A book that tells stories, gives instructions, commands, lessons,...Yet also numerically collected and arranged in letters, words sentences and chapters.
"...if only a miracle could be sent to himm..Wait ...the future belongs to GOD..." So the wait is over:

Example of a very minute FACT of the composition of Qoran among hundreds:
The frequency of occurrence of "Q" in Sura "Q"(No.50) is 57, 19x3
The frequency of "Q" in the only other Q-initialed sura (No.42) is also 57, 19x3
The total occurrence of the letter "Q" in the only two "Q"-initialed suras is 114,=19x6, as we read in sura "Q", the "Q" indicates the Quran. 114 is the total number of suras in the Quran.
Like the letter "Q" in each sura (42&50), the word Quran is mentioned in the Quran 57 times in referral to this Quran(Not Qoran other than this!). 57=19x3
Sura 42 has 53 verses and 42+53=95 , 19x5
Sura 50 has 45 verses and 50+45=95, 19x5
The number of "Q"s in all the verses numbered "19" throughout the Quran is 76, 19x4 .

Coincidence?? Or is this not a fact?...Among lots of other deliberate mathematical arrangements of Qoran..
One can argue that humans are taking this to the point of trials or not admitting their 19 failures...etc
But GOD has counted the numbers accurately, precisely and deliberately for us . Another sign/miracle among many other signs all around us.
It does not matter about our redemption,being good/doing good is more important, but it is there for all to see.
Also, with the aid of computers, some are trying to imitate 19 code to argue their part as humans always try to argue. Unfortunately coming with even a complete chapter that is mathematically composed for example like chapter 1,is impossible for them:

[Qoran 2:106] When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that God is Omnipotent?
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

Another interesting observation in chapter 50  Qaf:

" qawmu Lot     people of Lot    قوم لوط "    is   mentioned 7 times in the Quran

11:70  11:74  11:89    22:43   26:160   38:13   54:33


And also 5 times as :  " his people  qawmihi   قومه  " when"  Lot   لوط  " addresses " his people " or when they address Lot.

  7:80    21:74    27:54   27:56     29:28


And one time as :   " Ikhwanu Lot     brethren of Lot    اخون لوط  "    in chapter 50 Qaf

The term "brethren  (ikhwanu ) " is used here metonymically.  ( Muhammad Asad )

In the context it seems referring  to

" qawmu Lot     people of Lot    قوم لوط " :


50:12   Denied before them (the) people (of) Nuh and (the) companions (of) and Thamud,
50:13    And Aad and Firaun and (the) brethren (of) Lot,
50:14    And (the) companions (of) the wood and (the) people (of) Tubba. All denied the Messengers, so was fulfilled My Threat.



If " qawmu Lot     people of Lot    قوم لوط "   was mentioned in 50:13 ,  then there would be 58 lettes Qaf.



Some have opposed to this and say that there are other references to the people of Lot

as : " ala Lot      Famly of Lot        ال لوط "

15:59   15:61   27:56   54:34

This is not correct:

" qawmu Lot     people of Lot    قوم لوط " is refered  to in a negative way,  they were destroyed.

" ala Lot      Famly of Lot        ال لوط "  is refered  to in a positive way , they were saved  (exept his wive 15:60 ) .


coclusion:

It seems that: 

"Ikhwanu Lot   brethren of Lot    اخون لوط "  in 50:13 was " chosen" to result in 57 occurrences of the  letter Qaf ق

[Noon waalqalami]

- Most of your post on other subjects  seems interesting and from a knowledgeable person , but i don't understand your harsh attitude against a possible numerical structure of the Quran.

Peace, nothing about possibility of numerical structure (my profession is high tech science, physics, computing, and math) harshness toward ignorant include/exclude statically insignificant evidence.

http://arabic.speak7.com/arabic_numbers.htm

seem as in:

Quran:
74:30   Over it (are) nineteen : عليها تسعه عشر

No earliest manuscripts scribes clearly differentiated between "a number" vs "a group".

again see usage in 17:101, 27:12, 38:23 تسع nine (no  "ة" i.e. pertains to number # 9) 

Not as in link with "ة" which in qur'an means "group of nine" again see 27:48 تسعه nonet

" It " refers to  " Saqar"

right, tell "it" to the numerologists!

It seems that: 

"Ikhwanu Lot   brethren of Lot    اخون لوط "  in 50:13 was " chosen" to result in 57 occurrences of the  letter Qaf ق

other chapters?

ch   #q
14   57
32   38
42   57
47   38
50   57

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

Peace, nothing about possibility of numerical structure (my profession is high tech science, physics, computing, and math) harshness toward ignorant include/exclude statically insignificant evidence.

25:63 And the servants of the  Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say / reply / peace / peacefully / with words of peace.
( i.e not harsh )

- What is your / a statistically meaningful standard agreed on?

No earliest manuscripts scribes clearly differentiated between "a number" vs "a group".

again see usage in 17:101, 27:12, 38:23 تسع nine (no  "ة" i.e. pertains to number # 9) 

Not as in link with "ة" which in qur'an means "group of nine" again see 27:48 تسعه nonet

How do you spell " number 19"  in Arabic ?

right, tell "it" to the numerologists!

No  numerology in what i posted, either coincidence or  pattern.

----

What is your understanding on this:

74:31

What will  convince / give certainty to those who were given the Book / Scripture
and increase the faith of those who believe
and remove all traces of doubt from those who were given the Book / Scripture and the believers ?

other chapters?

ch   #q
14   57
32   38
42   57
47   38
50   57

Chapter 42 and chapter 50  are not arbitrarily chosen, they share the initial letter Qaf , and occurs  57 + 57 = 114  same as the number of chapters in the Quran.
Not the case for chapter 14 , 32 and 47

50:12   Denied before them (the) people (of) Nuh and (the) companions (of) ?  and Thamud,
50:13    And Aad and Firaun and (the) brethren (of) Lot,
50:14    And (the) companions (of) the wood and (the) people (of) Tubba. All denied the Messengers, so was fulfilled My Threat.

Sorry for this error in the translation, should be :

50:12 Denied before them (the) people (of) Nuh and (the) companions /dwellers (of) Al-Raas and Thamud,
50:13 And Aad and Firaun and (the) brethren (of) Lot,
50:14 And (the) companions/dwellers (of) the wood and (the) people (of) Tubba. All denied the Messengers, so was fulfilled My Threat.

[Noon waalqalami]

- What is your / a statistically meaningful standard agreed on?

Peace, it needs to be a consistent repeatable pattern NOT hiding ~95% (18/19) misses only showing ~5% (1/19) hits and using deceptive tricks by excluding/including, etc.

Likewise, what is yours; good logic (refuses to share interlock ☹) et al are claiming code?

How do you spell " number 19"  in Arabic ?

How many examples suffice?
Again, the scribes consistently wrote with trailing "ه" i.e. group; without "ه" number.

6:160/89:2 عشر ten (10)
2:196/5:89 عشره tentet (group of ten)

17:101/27:12 تسع nine (9)
27:48 تسعه nonet (group of nine)
74:30 تسعه nonet عشر ten (i.e. group of nineteen)

2:29/2:261/12:43-48 سبع seven (7)
15:44/18:22 سبعه septet (group of seven)

9:2 فسىحوا so move about فى in الارض the land اربعه quartet (written with trailing "ه" i.e. group of four) اشهر ashhurin ...

4:3/35:1 وربعand four (4)
24:8 اربعfour (i.e. 4 times)
2:226/2:234/2:260/4:15/9:2/9:36 اربعه quartet (group of four)
24:4/24:13 باربعه with quartet (i.e. group of four witnesses)

4:3 وثلث and three (3)
2:196/2:228/3:41/4:171 ثلثه trio (group of three)

No  numerology in what i posted, either coincidence or  pattern.

There is no consistent repeatable pattern in any of your posts.

Likewise, was referring to 19 hunters who say ?it? refers to Qur?an.

What is your understanding on this:

74:31

What is your understanding?

74:27 وما and what ادراك to make know you ما what سقر abyss?
74:28 لا not تبقى lets remain ولا and not تذر leave
74:29 لواحه scorching للبشر to the mortal
74:30 علىها over her/it تسعه nonet عشر ten (group of nineteen)
74:31 وما and not جعلنا made we of اصحب companions النار the fire الا except ملىكه controllers
 وما and not جعلنا made we of عدتهم count theirs الا except فتنه trial/infatuation للذىن for the ones كفروا reject they of
 لىستىقن surely convinced الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتب the book
 وىزداد and increase الذىن the ones امنوا believes they of اىمنا faith of
 ولا and not ىرتاب doubted الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتب the book والمومنون and the believing
 ولىقول and let speaketh الذىن the ones فى in قلوبهم hearts theirs مرض illness والكفرون and the rejecting
 ماذا what hath اراد intends الله the god بهذا in this مثلا similitude of
 كذلك like such ىضل misguided الله the god من whom ىشا willed وىهدى and guided من whom ىشا willed
 وما and not ىعلم knoweth جنود soldiers ربك lord your الا except هو he
 وما and not هى it is الا except ذكرى reminder للبشر to the mortal

Chapter 42 and chapter 50  are not arbitrarily chosen, they share the initial letter Qaf , and occurs  57 + 57 = 114  same as the number of chapters in the Quran.
Not the case for chapter 14 , 32 and 47

What is total ق in Quran ? not multiple? Where is consistent repeatable pattern?

How many ط ch 20? 28 not multiple?

How many ن ch 68? 132 not multiple?

50:12 Denied before them ...

Denied what? You saying people who don't believe 19 code/whatever are deniers?

[good logic]

Peace Noon.
Common brother. I said Interlock has been discussed with you multiple times here with me, brother Bahman and others. You do not need me to provide anything new that you do not know?
You know you only want to imitate with your numerology . It does not benefit either of us.

So you agree that 5%  at least is not numerology but patterns?

I do not care a jot about arguments or numerology or ...I see facts in front of me about the composition of Qoran. If others do not see it, it is fine by me.
I just wish you stop this 1/19 nonsense. I am also a mathematician and if there are only two facts the probability will be 1/19 x 1/19 = 1/361. 1 fact= 1/19, two facts= 1/19 x 1/19
Since there are hundreds,, or even in your 5% admission the probability will be approx. zero ie 1/19 x 1/19 x 1/19...etc.

Also the brother asked how do you spell 19 in Arabic(Tisata Ashar) .why the need for many examples in your post?

Like many other people who conversed with you here ,I do not understand your  stand against the clear numerical composition of Qoran despite many obvious facts?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Noon waalqalami]

I said Interlock has been discussed with you multiple times here with me, brother Bahman and others. You do not need me to provide anything new that you do not know?

Peace good logic ? you, Bahman, et al only provided statistically meaningless multiples.

So you agree that 5%  at least is not numerology but patterns?

5% (1/19 all numbers are multiple) expected perusing most anything e.g. two verses you deny...

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/9/vers/129?handschrift=163

see link to old manuscripts: https://postimg.cc/image/81jjnr2xj/

9:128 لقد verily جاكم came you رسول messenger من from انفسكم souls yours عزىز mighty علىه on him ما what عنتم suffer you حرىص concerned علىكم over you بالمومنىن with the believers روف kind رحىم merciful
9:129 فان so if تولوا turn they of فقل so say حسبى suffices me الله the god لا not اله deity الا except هو he علىه on him توكلت trust I وهو and he رب lord العرش the throne العظىم the major

19th word is Allah!

9 + 128 + 129 = 266 = 14 x 19!

9:129 # of letters start verse to including Allah = 19!

Coincidence? No, since that is how it is written.
Pattern? No, it is not consistent nor repeatable.

Also the brother asked how do you spell 19 in Arabic(Tisata Ashar) .why the need for many examples in your post?

It was to show difference how to spell/refer to "a group" vs "a number" e.g.

18:22 سىقولون shall saying ثلثه trio (i.e. group of three) ربعهم fourth theirs كلبهم dog theirs ...

18:25 ولبثوا and stay they of فى in كهفهم cave theirs ثلث three (i.e. the number 3) ماىه hundred ...

[good logic]

Peace Noon.
You know very well as a Mathematician that 1/19 is not 1 single fact for all multiples. But you deny?
You cannot just say if all  are multiples of 19 the probability is 1/19. It is false. It is  the "AND" rule of probability! (1/19 x 1/19 x...etc).

We also discussed your old manuscripts, similar to all the other mushafs that exist ,they contain errors. Or are they the original copy?

So you do not like omitting the two verses? And who is forcing you? Or because of that, you deny any numerical composition?

Your choice brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

Peace, it needs to be a consistent repeatable pattern NOT hiding ~95% (18/19) misses only showing ~5% (1/19) hits and using deceptive tricks by excluding/including, etc.

Likewise, what is yours; good logic (refuses to share interlock ☹) et al are claiming code?

What would they gain by hiding or deceiving people?

I think that those who search for a pattern in the Quran have good intentions, even if there are some errors and exaggerations and coincidences in their results.

I do not agree with all what they claim, but there are some interesting points that are significant and could not be the result of coincidences.

There is no consistent repeatable pattern in any of your posts.

Likewise, was referring to 19 hunters who say “it” refers to Qur’an.

I didn't claim a repeatable pattern, My posts are about interesting numerical observations in the Quran that could not be the result of a coincidence.

See examples in this topic:

- link between chapter 16 and the number of chromosomes of honey bees..
- Moses and the 9 signs.
- The particular spelling of the word nunjy and Da Nun
- Similarity between Adam and Jesus.
- Twelve months in the book of Allah
- Allah loves... and opposite ... Allah does not love...
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610157.0

and
-------
9 and 19
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610099.0
-------
Chapter Al-Rahman : 31 and 13
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610098.0
-------
The first verse (basmalah) 19 _ 9 and 10
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610122.0
-------
Bring 10 surahs like it
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610097.0
-------
Symmetry in not mentioning the word Noah in 2 ? 43 chapters.
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610101.0
-------
7 heavens (al) samawaat
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610116.0
-------
The initial letters and number 13
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610111.0
--------
Chapter 72 Al-Jinn a reference to 114 chapters ? 
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610107.0
---------
365 days or 475 days ?
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610104.0
--------
Symmetry and number 7
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610100.0

The Quran refers to the count of everything in numbers:

72:28  So as to make manifest that they have delivered the messages of their Lord, and He encompasses all that is with them, and He has counted everything in numbers.

What is your understanding?

74:27 وما and what ادراك to make know you ما what سقر abyss?
74:28 لا not تبقى lets remain ولا and not تذر leave
74:29 لواحه scorching للبشر to the mortal
74:30 علىها over her/it تسعه nonet عشر ten (group of nineteen)
74:31 وما and not جعلنا made we of اصحب companions النار the fire الا except ملىكه controllers
 وما and not جعلنا made we of عدتهم count theirs الا except فتنه trial/infatuation للذىن for the ones كفروا reject they of
 لىستىقن surely convinced الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتب the book
 وىزداد and increase الذىن the ones امنوا believes they of اىمنا faith of
 ولا and not ىرتاب doubted الذىن the ones اوتوا given they of الكتب the book والمومنون and the believing
 ولىقول and let speaketh الذىن the ones فى in قلوبهم hearts theirs مرض illness والكفرون and the rejecting
 ماذا what hath اراد intends الله the god بهذا in this مثلا similitude of
 كذلك like such ىضل misguided الله the god من whom ىشا willed وىهدى and guided من whom ىشا willed
 وما and not ىعلم knoweth جنود soldiers ربك lord your الا except هو he
 وما and not هى it is الا except ذكرى reminder للبشر to the mortal

My question was not a translation of 74:31.
My question was  your understanding of:

What will  convince / give certainty to those who were given the Book / Scripture
and increase the faith of those who believe
and remove all traces of doubt from those who were given the Book / Scripture and the believers.

How many examples suffice?
Again, the scribes consistently wrote with trailing "ه" i.e. group; without "ه" number.

6:160/89:2 عشر ten (10)
2:196/5:89 عشره tentet (group of ten)

17:101/27:12 تسع nine (9)
27:48 تسعه nonet (group of nine)
74:30 تسعه nonet عشر ten (i.e. group of nineteen)

2:29/2:261/12:43-48 سبع seven (7)
15:44/18:22 سبعه septet (group of seven)

9:2 فسىحوا so move about فى in الارض the land اربعه quartet (written with trailing "ه" i.e. group of four) اشهر ashhurin ...

4:3/35:1 وربعand four (4)
24:8 اربعfour (i.e. 4 times)
2:226/2:234/2:260/4:15/9:2/9:36 اربعه quartet (group of four)
24:4/24:13 باربعه with quartet (i.e. group of four witnesses)

4:3 وثلث and three (3)
2:196/2:228/3:41/4:171 ثلثه trio (group of three)

Thanks for sharing your observations, my question was:

How do you spell " number 19 "  in Arabic ?

What is total ق in Quran – not multiple? Where is consistent repeatable pattern?

How many ط ch 20? 28 not multiple?

How many ن ch 68? 132 not multiple?

I know that all initial letters are not a multiple of 19 and I did not claim that.

See this:

Thanks for your reply.
In chapter 68 i count 132 letters Nun(N) ن with the basmalah  , or 131 without the basmalah.

And this:

- There could be another explanation for  chapter 68 having 132 letters Nun(N)  ن  with the basmalah,  or 131 without the basmalah.

Denied what? You saying people who don't believe 19 code/whatever are deniers?

Be honest and sincere when you quote;I was referring to an error in my previous post, where i forgot the name "Al-Raas " in 50:12