... And He has counted everything in numbers ...

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

Peace ibn_a.
There are many types of people arguing the "19" base of Qoran:

Those who insist it is coincidence ,so what? they argue you can find patterns in any book or make up pattern using today s computers randomly.

Those who see the unique pattern and order in Qoran as impossible to imitate now, never mind before computers. They see that the numerical base has been made to accommodate all the letters of Qoran, each letter to its special place in the text. They also see the present arrangement of verses and surahs are also mathematically placed . They see a miracle arrangement that cannot be man made.

Those who overdo this "19" base and try to find all sorts of patterns and get carried away  with it.

And those that imitate it and try very hard to underplay any 19 fact found in Qoran.

Yet it is plainly obvious to anyone who  checks ,regardless of their mathematical background, that there are many facts indicating the text is deliberately composed and structured mathematically as well as the order of the surahs and placing of verses in the surahs.
 
Coincidence is far from an accurate description. In my opinion ,it is denial, which they are entitled to.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace good logic,


I think that some results could be argued, but others are obvious, and cannot reasonably explained as coincidence, that is why some say for example that the Quran has 113 chapters, assembling chapter 8 and chapter 9 in one chapter, that the Basmalah has from 20 to 23 letters, that there is an extra number 14 in 2:234, that the arrangement of chapters and verses is not part of revelation, assign a meaningless purpose for 74:30-31,  etc ....

I think that the fact that the Quran mentions number 19  and explains its logical purpose in 74:30-31, and about other numbers in 72:28 and the 114 chapters, the 19 letters of the Basmalah, the absence of the Basmalah in chapter 9 and the inside Basmalah in chapter 27, the total numbers mentioned in the Quran, the position and length of the chapters, the initial letters, some word counts and  position , ... should suffice for an objective observer to reflect about a possible numerical structure in the Quran.


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

[good logic]

Peace ibn_a
When GOD said : "It is we who will collect/gather it as a Qoran",many do not believe GOD? Who else do they think  collected this Qoran in the form we have today? i.e 114 surahs!!!!!

 WHY are there 114 surahs in the Qoran ? although the fact that 114 is a multiple of 19, is by itself significant, the answer that this is the reason for 114 surahs is not sufficient enough since there are other multiples of 19, say 38, 57, 76, 95, 133?etc. which could have served the same function as well.
 The answer to the question is found in surah 75:17

[Qoran 75:17] It is we who will collect it into Qoran.

[75:17] It is we who will collect it (Arabic = Jama?ahu) into Qoran.

Here God says that He (using angelic forces) is responsible for the collecting of all the verses of the Qoran into what is now called the Qoran . The Arabic verb here for collecting or gathering is (jama?s)  and the nonoun corresponding to is is (Jami?u)  . God is called in the Quran Jami?u .. at least twice in the Qoran, 3:9 and 4:140

[3:9] "Our Lord, You will surely gather .. the people on a day that is inevitable. GOD never breaks a promise."

[4:140] He has instructed you in the scripture that: if you hear GOD's revelations being mocked and ridiculed, you shall not sit with them, unless they delve into another subject. Otherwise, you will be as guilty as they are. GOD will gather the hypocrites . and the disbelievers together in Hell.


While surahs 3:9 says that God is the Gatherer of mankind for the day of Judgment and Surah 4:140 says that He is the Gatherer of all those destined for the Doom, , Surah 75:17 asserts that He is also the Gatherer (Collector) of the revelations of the Qoran.

The gematrical value of the word ( Jam?u = Collector or Gatherer ) is 114.

As we know , there is NO co-incidence. God knows since creation that He will the Collector/gatherer of the Qoran, the Gatherer of the revelations and He assigned the value 114 to the word, J =3, A =1, M= 40 and A?in = 70 = 114

Thus Jami?u .. totals 114, the number of surahs in the Qoran.

Besides being the Author of the Qoran, He is responsible for its gathering and collection together. This explains the relationship between God?s special name Al-Jami?u and the number of surahs in the Qoran. God Himself gives the clue in 75:17.

This is all coincidence to those who deny , for reasons unknown??? Because they claim to believe the word of GOD ?

Well brother it will not go away. GOD has opened the seal . Qoran is making a second coming to this "Scientific" generation and future ones" until they realise Qoran is the truth. It is the word of GOD.
Being certain it is the word of GOD only makes one a better believer ,more aware , GOD conscious to change our ways and behaviour. Become a better person!

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[jkhan]

Peace ibn_a
When GOD said : "It is we who will collect/gather it as a Qoran",many do not believe GOD? Who else do they think  collected this Qoran in the form we have today? i.e 114 surahs!!!!!

 WHY are there 114 surahs in the Qoran ? although the fact that 114 is a multiple of 19, is by itself significant, the answer that this is the reason for 114 surahs is not sufficient enough since there are other multiples of 19, say 38, 57, 76, 95, 133?etc. which could have served the same function as well.
 The answer to the question is found in surah 75:17

[Qoran 75:17] It is we who will collect it into Qoran.

[75:17] It is we who will collect it (Arabic = Jama?ahu) into Qoran.

Here God says that He (using angelic forces) is responsible for the collecting of all the verses of the Qoran into what is now called the Qoran . The Arabic verb here for collecting or gathering is (jama?s)  and the nonoun corresponding to is is (Jami?u)  . God is called in the Quran Jami?u .. at least twice in the Qoran, 3:9 and 4:140

[3:9] "Our Lord, You will surely gather .. the people on a day that is inevitable. GOD never breaks a promise."

[4:140] He has instructed you in the scripture that: if you hear GOD's revelations being mocked and ridiculed, you shall not sit with them, unless they delve into another subject. Otherwise, you will be as guilty as they are. GOD will gather the hypocrites . and the disbelievers together in Hell.


While surahs 3:9 says that God is the Gatherer of mankind for the day of Judgment and Surah 4:140 says that He is the Gatherer of all those destined for the Doom, , Surah 75:17 asserts that He is also the Gatherer (Collector) of the revelations of the Qoran.

The gematrical value of the word ( Jam?u = Collector or Gatherer ) is 114.

As we know , there is NO co-incidence. God knows since creation that He will the Collector/gatherer of the Qoran, the Gatherer of the revelations and He assigned the value 114 to the word, J =3, A =1, M= 40 and A?in = 70 = 114

Thus Jami?u .. totals 114, the number of surahs in the Qoran.

Besides being the Author of the Qoran, He is responsible for its gathering and collection together. This explains the relationship between God?s special name Al-Jami?u and the number of surahs in the Qoran. God Himself gives the clue in 75:17.

This is all coincidence to those who deny , for reasons unknown??? Because they claim to believe the word of GOD ?

Well brother it will not go away. GOD has opened the seal . Qoran is making a second coming to this "Scientific" generation and future ones" until they realise Qoran is the truth. It is the word of GOD.
Being certain it is the word of GOD only makes one a better believer ,more aware , GOD conscious to change our ways and behaviour. Become a better person!

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Absolutely GL...
That's why I believe in chronological order of Quran ... God is the one who collect it and put in recitation order and He is the one who protects it...

I would like to add a comment to this... Has anywhere in Quran when God used "We Do" something and got the assistance of human ?... Can you check that pls GL... Or anyone else... Is there any instance in Quran?

[seekingtruth1111]

Absolutely GL...
That's why I believe in chronological order of Quran ... God is the one who collect it and put in recitation order and He is the one who protects it...

I would like to add a comment to this... Has anywhere in Quran when God used "We Do" something and got the assistance of human ?... Can you check that pls GL... Or anyone else... Is there any instance in Quran?

Peace Jkhan,

Whatever humans are capable of doing is because GOD has given us the ability. Its easy for God to use human for his purpose. He sent prophets/messengers to do exactly that by inspiration who served specific functions .

42:51 It is not for any human being that God would speak to him, except through inspiration, or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger to inspire whom He wills by His leave. He is the Most High, Most Wise.

God can inspire any human being not only prophets or messengers. God inspired mother of Moses .

28:7 We inspired to Moses' mother: "Suckle him, and when you become fearful for him, then cast him off in the sea, and do not fear nor grieve. We will return him to you and We will make him of the messengers."

So its easy for God to use humans for  preservation of the reminder (15:9) . And it has been a collective approach by humans to propagate Quran for 1400 years and I think still going on in terms of understanding the Quran via debates and discussion.

Even this argument whether there is a numerical structure of the Quran or not. Some people has mentioned waste of time at the same time wasting their time to disprove it. But with all the arguments for and against still we are enriching our knowledge somehow.  Even in this thread I can see people digging into old manuscript to debate about what should be the correct spelling of some words. So I think its not a total waste of time. But yes some people gets carried away and overdo it which is normal for anything. I am sure some people after revelation of the Quran got carried away and started collecting anything Muhammad said and after few hundred years heaps of hadith/sunnah collection emerged.

And in my opinion not everything has to be multiple of 19 if there is a numerical structure. Surah 68 is an example where where I think God intentionally did not make the count of NuN to be 133 . Instead its 132 . He could have used called Jonah by name in 68:48 and the count could become multiple of 19.

Also I find these arguments compelling the way some of the counts were done using inconsistent methodology. 

https://www.quranaloneislam.net/rashad-khalifa-exposed

May be one day there will emerge a consistent numerical structure if God wills and we can observe the Quran as it is in the preserved tablet.


So yes everything that goes towards preserving the reminder is divinely  guided by God and humans in different era probably got inspired to do so.

--When Arabic language emerged  as a written/scripted language
--When Quran was revealed in arabic
--Writing down the Quran
--Arranging the chapters of the Quran
--Memorizing the Quran
--Changes in the spelling of different words (adding alif, deleting alifs etc)
--Discovery of numerical structures or the argument/debate over whether there is one

[jkhan]

Peace ST1111...
No.. No.. Probably you didn't get what meant by human... God normally use 'We' and do it Himself and probably malaika... Suppose We destroyed the Nation... So human not involve there.. So I was asking is there any instance in Quran while using We and human involved directly...

[good logic]

Peace. seekingtruth1111
You say this, quote:
And in my opinion not everything has to be multiple of 19 if there is a numerical structure. Surah 68 is an example where where I think God intentionally did not make the count of NuN to be 133 . Instead its 132 . He could have used called Jonah by name in 68:48 and the count could become multiple of 19.

I have said this:
For me, the structure and composition of Qoran explains many odd verses and different spellings. The famous one is "NUN"
GOD not only assured us how it spelt in :

21:87
And Zan-Noon (Jonah, "the one with an `N' in his name"), abandoned his mission in protest, thinking that we could not control him. He ended up imploring from the darkness (of the big fish's belly): "There is no god other than You. Be You glorified. I have committed a gross sin."
وَذَا النّونِ إِذ ذَهَبَ مُغٰضِبًا فَظَنَّ أَن لَن نَقدِرَ عَلَيهِ فَنادىٰ فِى الظُّلُمٰتِ أَن لا إِلٰهَ إِلّا أَنتَ سُبحٰنَكَ إِنّى كُنتُ مِنَ الظّٰلِمينَ

So What? Well count the "N"s in this verse, there are 14 exactly why? I say it is an indication to the 14 initials and this confirms the initial N in surah 68 is spelt the same "NUN" .
So GOD has put 133 N s in surah 68 by spelling N as NUN i.e contains 2 N s. That is why he did not put Janah but Sahibi Al Hoot in the verses, it would have made it 134.

There is no coincidence with GOD s words only deliberate plans.
GOD bless you.
Peace

[seekingtruth1111]

Peace. seekingtruth1111
You say this, quote:
And in my opinion not everything has to be multiple of 19 if there is a numerical structure. Surah 68 is an example where where I think God intentionally did not make the count of NuN to be 133 . Instead its 132 . He could have used called Jonah by name in 68:48 and the count could become multiple of 19.

I have said this:
For me, the structure and composition of Qoran explains many odd verses and different spellings. The famous one is "NUN"
GOD not only assured us how it spelt in :

21:87
And Zan-Noon (Jonah, "the one with an `N' in his name"), abandoned his mission in protest, thinking that we could not control him. He ended up imploring from the darkness (of the big fish's belly): "There is no god other than You. Be You glorified. I have committed a gross sin."
وَذَا النّونِ إِذ ذَهَبَ مُغٰضِبًا فَظَنَّ أَن لَن نَقدِرَ عَلَيهِ فَنادىٰ فِى الظُّلُمٰتِ أَن لا إِلٰهَ إِلّا أَنتَ سُبحٰنَكَ إِنّى كُنتُ مِنَ الظّٰلِمينَ

So What? Well count the "N"s in this verse, there are 14 exactly why? I say it is an indication to the 14 initials and this confirms the initial N in surah 68 is spelt the same "NUN" .
So GOD has put 133 N s in surah 68 by spelling N as NUN i.e contains 2 N s. That is why he did not put Janah but Sahibi Al Hoot in the verses, it would have made it 134.

There is no coincidence with GOD s words only deliberate plans.
GOD bless you.
Peace

Peace good logic
What happens to waw if you spell NuN like that?

[Noon waalqalami]

[75:17] It is we who will collect it (Arabic = Jama?ahu) into Qoran.

The gematrical value of the word ( Jam?u = Collector or Gatherer ) is 114.

114 to the word, J =3, A =1, M= 40 and A?in = 70 = 114

peace – like all multiples meaningless.

75:17 جمعه jamahu/assembly its
5 + 70 + 40 + 3 = 118

18:99 فجمعنهم fajamanahum/so assemble we them جمعا jaman/assembly (host) of

why not play "hunting 29 multiples" it's much harder less probable?

الجمعه l-jumuati/the assembly (gathering) its
1 + 30 + 70 + 40 + 3+ 30 = 174 (6 x 29!)

اجمعىن ajmaina/all together (collectively)
1 + 70 + 40 + 3 + 10 + 50 = 174 (6 x 29!)

#   gv   word
1   120   جمعوا    70   40   3   6   1      
1   121   اجمعوا    1   70   40   3   6   1      
1   127   واجمعوا    6   1   70   40   3   6   1   
1   143   جمعه    70   40   3   30         
1   163   نجمع    50   70   40   3         
1   173   جمعكم    70   40   3   20   40      
1   174   الجمعه    1   30   70   40   3   30      
1   183   جمعهم    70   40   3   30   40      
1   213   لجمعهم    30   70   40   3   30   40      
1   223   جمعنكم    70   40   3   50   20   40      
1   233   جمعنهم    70   40   3   50   30   40      
1   313   فجمعنهم    80   70   40   3   50   30   40   
1   520   تجمعوا    400   70   40   3   6   1      
2   119   وجمع    6   70   40   3         
2   153   مجمع    40   70   40   3         
2   183   ىجمعكم    10   70   40   3   20   40      
2   193   فجمع    80   70   40   3         
2   201   فاجمعوا    80   1   70   40   3   6   1   
2   263   لىجمعنكم    30   10   70   40   3   50   20   40   
3   114   جمعا    70   40   3   1         
3   123   ىجمع    10   70   40   3         
3   144   الجمع    1   30   70   40   3      
3   170   اجمعون    1   70   40   3   6   50      
3   179   ىجمعون    10   70   40   3   6   50      
4   113   جمع    70   40   3         
4   194   الجمعن    1   30   70   40   3   50      
23   174   اجمعىن    1   70   40   3   10   50      

[good logic]

Peace  seekingtruth1111

What do you mean by, quote:
What happens to waw if you spell NuN like that?

It makes no difference to the count of N s?
GOD bless you.
Peace

[good logic]

Peace Noon.
The word "GATHERER"" is about GOD gathering the Qoran. Hence the total 114 applies to the word جامِعُ . This totals 114.
You are not reading the posts properly and you are using other derivatives that have nothing to do with what I wrote.
Your post is missing the point.
GOD bless you.
Peace.