Author Topic: Hafs or Warsh  (Read 7790 times)

good logic

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #80 on: September 24, 2018, 09:49:05 AM »
Peace Imran.
I have seen this, quote:
i asked where is the evidence that God decided to write in such a way to hinting towards numbering ? did he personally told you or just ur wishfulthinking ?

"...Ahsa Kulla Chaiin Addadan".. i.e GOD counted the numbers ..
I repeat:
Brother Imran, I think the above should be enough,but let me elaborate more on 21:87:
وَذَا النّونِ إِذ ذَهَبَ مُغٰضِبًا فَظَنَّ أَن لَن نَقدِرَ عَلَيهِ فَنادىٰ فِى الظُّلُمٰتِ أَن لا إِلٰهَ إِلّا أَنتَ سُبحٰنَكَ إِنّى كُنتُ مِنَ الظّٰلِمينَ
Why do I think this verse is indicating to us how to spell the letter N in 68:1?
There are 14 different initial letters used in Qoran, this verse is screaming  N the initial (The only one in 68:1) also is spelt like the N in this verse. Count how many N s in it?
Yes brother GOD has put exactly 14 N s in that verse  as indication. Or it is coincidence to you?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

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ibn_a

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #81 on: September 24, 2018, 10:10:59 AM »
Salaam,



peace, see oldest manuscripts الامثل l-amthāla/the examples (no extra alif) same word

13:17  الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
14:25  الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
14:45  الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
16:74  الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
17:48  الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
25:9 الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
24:35 الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
25:39  الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
29:43 الامثل l-amthālu/the examples
59:21  الامثل l-amthālu/the examples

these are different (no extra alif)

3:182 بظلم biẓul'min/in wrong/injustice 
4:153 بظلمهم biẓul'mihim/in wrong/injustice theirs
4:160 فبظلم fabiẓul'min/so in wrong/injustice
6:82  بظلم biẓul'min/in wrong/injustice
6:131 بظلم biẓul'min/in wrong/injustice
11:117 بظلم biẓul'min/in wrong/injustice
16:61 بظلمهم biẓul'mihim/in wrong/injustice theirs
22:25 بظلم biẓul'min/in wrong/injustice

(with extra alif)
8:51 ذلك such بما in what قدمت have set forth اىدىكم hands yours وان and that الله the god لىس not is بظلام biẓallāmin/in darkness للعبىد to the devotees?
22:10 ذلك such بما in what قدمت have set forth ىداك hands your وان and that الله the god لىس not is بظلام biẓallāmin/in darkness للعبىد to the devotees?
41:46 من who عمل work صلحا righteous of فلنفسه so for soul his/himself ومن and who اسا does evil فعلىها so against it وما and not ربك lord your بظلام biẓallāmin/in darkness للعبىد to the devotees?
50:29 ما not ىبدل changed القول the speech لدى with me وما and not انا I am بظلام biẓallāmin/in darkness للعبىد to the devotees?

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/182/handschrift/163



https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/51/handschrift/163



What is your theory,  understanding on these differences?


imrankhawaja

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #82 on: September 24, 2018, 10:58:40 AM »
Why do I think this verse is indicating to us how to spell the letter N in 68:1?
There are 14 different initial letters used in Qoran, this verse is screaming  N the initial (The only one in 68:1) also is spelt like the N in this verse. Count how many N s in it?
Yes brother GOD has put exactly 14 N s in that verse  as indication.


so your thinking has nothing to do with God decision isnt it ? the answer you gave is just your thinking not the reality.

BOLD so what ?


 


good logic

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #83 on: September 24, 2018, 12:15:13 PM »
Peace Imran.
Like I said to you. Accountability dictates that each of us check for themselves.
If you are happy with your lot(Your old manuscripts) ,it is your choice.
I am happy with mine(after checking for myself the mathematical structure).
 
As for the message, it is crystal clear in both our mushafs . So I wish you the best of works/morals  brother.
This is the most important thing in Qoran.(Inna Akramakum inda Allah Atkaakum)
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #84 on: September 24, 2018, 06:22:41 PM »
Peace, last post need to take a break...

21:87:
وَذَا النّونِ إِذ ذَهَبَ مُغٰضِبًا فَظَنَّ أَن لَن نَقدِرَ عَلَيهِ فَنادىٰ فِى الظُّلُمٰتِ أَن لا إِلٰهَ إِلّا أَنتَ سُبحٰنَكَ إِنّى كُنتُ مِنَ الظّٰلِمينَ
Why do I think this verse is indicating to us how to spell the letter N in 68:1?
There are 14 different initial letters used in Qoran, this verse is screaming  N the initial

68:1 ن noon والقلم wal-qalami/and the pen وما and what ىسطرون yasṭurūna/they write being (i.e. writing)

Furthermore, نون does not spell N (noon) rather parse the word ?

21:87 النون l-nuni/the noon being

ال the
ن N (noon) 
ون being (i.e. so-called)

Likewise, see example ?

49:17 ىمنون yamunnūna/favored being ... ىمن yamunnu/favored

What is your theory,  understanding on these differences?

Oldest manuscripts are consistent while those ~200 years afterward contain inconsistencies.

4:82 افلا do so not ىتدبرون they reflecting القران the qur?an/recitation ولو and in case كان be من from عند near/with غىر other than الله the god لوجدوا surely found they of فىه in it اختلفا ikhtilafan/divergences of (single occurrence) كثىرا kathiran/much of (3+)

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/50/vers/29?handschrift=163



https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/50/vers/29?handschrift=32




good logic

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #85 on: September 24, 2018, 11:13:41 PM »
Peace Noon.
Common brother, the "being" word is made up  here i:
21:87 النون l-nuni/the noon being

ال the
ن N (noon) 
ون being (i.e. so-called)

So-called what? There is no word "being" in the verse. The word  النون  in the verse just means the letter N .
There is no relation to: 49:17 ىمنون yamunnūna/favored being ... ىمن yamunnu/favoured.

Enjoy your break brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

ibn_a

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #86 on: September 25, 2018, 01:25:49 AM »
Salaam,


Peace, last post need to take a break...

 

Oldest manuscripts are consistent while those ~200 years afterward contain inconsistencies.

4:82 افلا do so not ىتدبرون they reflecting القران the qur?an/recitation ولو and in case كان be من from عند near/with غىر other than الله the god لوجدوا surely found they of فىه in it اختلفا ikhtilafan/divergences of (single occurrence) كثىرا kathiran/much of (3+)




When you have time, please share what you consider as consistent  "oldest manuscripts" that you are referring to.


Noon waalqalami

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #87 on: September 25, 2018, 09:21:34 AM »
When you have time, please share what you consider as consistent  "oldest manuscripts" that you are referring to.

Peace gave numerous examples including ten consistently spelled الامثل not half spelled الامثال (same word).

1.   13:17 الامثل the examples
2.   14:25 الامثل the examples
3.   14:45 الامثل the examples
4.   16:74 الامثل the examples
5.   17:48 الامثل the examples

6.   25:9 الامثل the examples
7.   24:35 الامثل the examples
8.   25:39 الامثل the examples
9.   29:43 الامثل the examples
10.   59:21 الامثل the examples

13:17 الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/13/vers/17?handschrift=13


16:74 الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
UNESCO ?Memory of the World? Program ?San?a Manuscripts CD First AH 16:73-89


17:48 الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/17/vers/49?handschrift=107


ibn_a

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #88 on: September 26, 2018, 03:09:55 AM »
Salaam,



peace gl, your infatuation with nineteen is making you lose sense of basic logic.
it's not about original (same word/phrases need to be consistent) see examples.

NOT consistent extra alif 130140500130 الأمثال in current manuscript/s and should be...

13:17 ... ىضرب yaḍribu/striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
14:25 ... وىضرب wayaḍribu/and striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
14:45 ... وضربنا waḍarabnā/and strike we of لكم for you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
16:74 فلا so not تضربوا taḍribū/thou strike ye of لله to god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
17:48 انظر observe كىف how ضربوا ḍarabū/strike they of لك to you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples فضلوا so astray they of فلا so not ىستطىعون capable being سبىلا path of


These verses consistent in current manuscript/s (no extra alif) as in oldest manuscripts...

25:9 انظر observe كىف how ضربوا ḍarabū/strike they of لك to you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples فضلوا so astray they of فلا so not ىستطىعون capable being سبىلا path of
24:35 ... وىضرب wayaḍribu/and striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
25:39 ... ضربنا ḍarabnā/strike we of له to him الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
29:43 وتلك and those الامثل l-amthālu/the examples نضربها naḍribuhā/we strike them للناس to the humankind وما and not ىعقلها understand them الا except العالمون the knowing
59:21 ... وتلك and those الامثل l-amthālu/the examples نضربها naḍribuhā/we strike them للناس to the humankind لعلهم perhaps they ىتفكرون reflecting


Some examples of differences in the spelling of words  from what you  call " consistent  oldest manuscripts".

 Example:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/218/handschrift/163
line 9  - Mercy / Grace of God:  رحمت الله

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/56/handschrift/163
line 3    - Mercy / Grace of God:  رحمت الله

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/11/vers/73/handschrift/163
line 3    - Mercy / Grace of God:  رحمت الله

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/30/vers/50?handschrift=107
line 9    - Mercy / Grace of God:  رحمت الله

--  Compare to:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/107?handschrift=163
line 21 - Mercy / Grace of God:    رحمه الله

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/39/vers/53?handschrift=163
line 23-24  - Mercy / Grace of God:    رحمه الله


Example:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/38?handschrift=163
line: 20-21   - Way  (of) the former (people)  : سنت الاولين

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/35/vers/43?handschrift=163
line: 19-20  -   Way  (of) the former (people)    : سنت الاولين
 

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/40/vers/85?handschrift=163
line: 19-20   ( the) Way (of) Allah   : سنت الله

--  Compare to:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/15/vers/13?handschrift=163
line: 9  -  Way  (of) the former (people)    : سنه الاولين

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/18/vers/55?handschrift=163
line: 3  - Way  (of) the former (people)    :  سنه الاولين

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/33/vers/38?handschrift=107
last line   ( the) Way (of) Allah     :  سنه الله


--------

I think that the particular spelling of some words in the Quran we have today is not inconsistent,  it is for a purpose  and in time the purpose will be revealed by God.
 
Like the example of the word Ibraheem , spelled without Ya ي  in chapter 2 and spelled with Ya ي in the rest of the Quran.

There is no logique in saying that the scribes changed the spelling of the word Ibraheem only in chapter 2 and not in the rest of the Quran, they must have had a source for these particular spellings.

Cautious when saying "inconsistent" about the current manuscript especially  when in condradiction with Quran veses referring to the the preservation of the Quran by God.



Noon waalqalami

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #89 on: September 28, 2018, 05:57:23 PM »
Some examples of differences in the spelling of words  from what you  call " consistent  oldest manuscripts".

 Example:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/218/handschrift/163
line 9  - Mercy / Grace of God:  رحمت الله

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/56/handschrift/163
line 3    - Mercy / Grace of God:  رحمت الله

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/11/vers/73/handschrift/163
line 3    - Mercy / Grace of God:  رحمت الله

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/30/vers/50?handschrift=107
line 9    - Mercy / Grace of God:  رحمت الله

--  Compare to:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/107?handschrift=163
line 21 - Mercy / Grace of God:    رحمه الله

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/39/vers/53?handschrift=163
line 23-24  - Mercy / Grace of God:    رحمه الله

peace, same in ?new? manuscripts slight distinction رحمت verb & رحمه verbal noun from root رحم raḥima/mercy ‎

39:38 ? برحمه biraḥmatin/in mercy its هل shall هن they ممسكت with-holders رحمته raḥmatihi/mercy his ?

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/39/vers/38/handschrift/163



Example:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/38?handschrift=163
line: 20-21   - Way  (of) the former (people)  : سنت الاولين

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/35/vers/43?handschrift=163
line: 19-20  -   Way  (of) the former (people)    : سنت الاولين
 

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/40/vers/85?handschrift=163
line: 19-20   ( the) Way (of) Allah   : سنت الله

--  Compare to:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/15/vers/13?handschrift=163
line: 9  -  Way  (of) the former (people)    : سنه الاولين

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/18/vers/55?handschrift=163
line: 3  - Way  (of) the former (people)    :  سنه الاولين

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/33/vers/38?handschrift=107
last line   ( the) Way (of) Allah     :  سنه الله

again same in ?new? manuscripts slight nuance/distinction ?‎

17:77 سنه sunnata/manner من from قد hence ارسلنا sent we of قبلك before you من from رسلنا messengers ours ولا and not تجد thou find لسنتنا lisunnatina/to manner its ours تحوىلا turning

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/17/vers/77/handschrift/163



Like the example of the word Ibraheem , spelled without Ya ي  in chapter 2 and spelled with Ya ي in the rest of the Quran.

likewise it was already shown to you numerous times that the oldest manuscripts "consistently" spelled ا ب ر ه ى م abraham (same word/person) in all chapters  and chapter 2 "inconsistency" appears ~200+ years afterwards and likewise the new verse arrangement separating 18 of ?29? initialed chapters into separate verses, etc.

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/124?handschrift=163



1.   2:1 الم alif lam meem ذلك such الكتب the book لا not رىب doubt فىه in it هدى guidance للمتقىن for the righteous
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/1?handschrift=116

2.   3:1 الم alif lam meem الله the god لا not اله deity الا except هو he الحى the alive القىوم the sustainer
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/1/handschrift/116

3.   7:1 المص alif lam meem saad كتب book انزل descends الىك to you فلا so not ىكن beeth فى in صدرك breast your حرج critical منه from it لتنذر to thou warn به with it وذكرى and reminder للمومنىن to the believers
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/1/handschrift/163

4.   10:1 الر alif lam ra تلك those اىت signs الكتب the book الحكىم the wise
5.   11:1 الر alif lam ra كتب book احكمت are perfected اىته signs/verses its ثم furthermore فصلت explained من from لدن one who حكىم wise خبىر aware
6.   12:1 الر alif lam ra تلك those اىت signs الكتب the book المبىن the clear
7.   13:1 المر alif lam meem ra تلك those اىت signs الكتب the book والذى and the which انزل descends الىك to you من from ربك lord your الحق the truth ولكن and however اكثر more الناس the humankind لا not ىومنون believing
8.   14:1 الر alif lam ra كتب book انزلنه descends we it الىك to you لتخرج that thou evict الناس the humankind من from الظلمات the darkness الى to النور the light باذن by permission ربهم lord theirs الى to صرط path العزىز the mighty الحمىد the praiseworthy
9.   15:1 الر alif lam ra تلك those اىت signs الكتب the book وقران and qur?an/recitation مبىن clear

10.   19:1 كهىعص kaaf ha ya ain saad ذكر remembrance رحمت mercy ربك lord your عبده devotee his زكرىا zakariyya
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/19/vers/1/handschrift/163

11.   20:1 طه ta ha ما not انزلنا descends we of علىك upon you القران the qur?an/recitation لتشقى that thou agonize
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1/handschrift/163

12.   26:1 طسم ta seen mim تلك those اىت signs الكتب the book المبىن the clear
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/26/vers/1/handschrift/163

13.   27:1 طس ta seen تلك those اىت signs القران the qur?an/recitation وكتب and book مبىن clear

14.   28:1 طسم ta seen mim تلك those اىت signs الكتب the book المبىن the clear
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/28/vers/1?handschrift=107

15.   29:1 الم alif lam meem احسب do calculate الناس the humankind ان that ىتركوا left they of ان that ىقولوا speaketh they of امنا believe we of وهم and they لا not ىفتنون tested being
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/29/vers/1/handschrift/107

16.   30:1 الم alif lam meem غلبت ghalabat/triumph الروم the romans
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/30/vers/1/handschrift/107

17.   31:1 الم alif lam meem تلك those اىت signs الكتب the book الحكىم the wise
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/31/vers/1/handschrift/107

18.   32:1 الم alif lam meem تنزىل revelation الكتب the book لا not رىب doubt فىه in it من from رب lord العلمىن the world?s inhabitants
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/32/vers/1/handschrift/107

19.   36:1 ىس ya seen والقران and the qur?an/recitation الحكىم the wise
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/36/vers/1/handschrift/107

20.   38:1 ص saad والقران and the qur?an/recitation ذى owner الذكر the reminder
21.   40:1 حم ha meem تنزىل revelation الكتب the book من from الله the god العزىز the mighty العلىم the knower
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/40/vers/1?handschrift=163

22.   41:1 حم ha meem تنزىل revelation من from الرحمن the almighty الرحىم the merciful
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/41/vers/1/handschrift/163

23.   42:1 حم ha meem عسق ayn seen qaf  كذلك like such ىوحى inspired الىك to you والى and toward الذىن the ones من from قبلك before you الله the god العزىز the mighty الحكىم the wise
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/42/vers/1/handschrift/163

24.   43:1 حم ha meem والكتب and the book المبىن the clear
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/43/vers/1?handschrift=163

25.   44:1 حم ha meem والكتب and the book المبىن the clear
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/44/vers/1/handschrift/163

26.   45:1 حم ha meem تنزىل revelation الكتب the book من from الله the god العزىز the mighty الحكىم the wise
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/45/vers/1/handschrift/163

27.   46:1 حم ha meem تنزىل revelation الكتب the book من from الله the god العزىز the mighty الحكىم the wise
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/46/vers/1/handschrift/163

28.   50:1 ق qaf والقران and the qur?an/recitation المجىد the glorious
29.   68:1 ن noon والقلم wal-qalami/and the pen وما and what ىسطرون they write being