Author Topic: Hafs or Warsh  (Read 12045 times)

Noon waalqalami

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Hafs or Warsh
« on: April 05, 2018, 11:30:07 PM »
Peace, a user messaged asking question based on Layth's article ?

http://www.free-minds.org/sites/default/files/WhichQuran.pdf

43:19 in Hafs is ُادَبِع? Ibaad? / In Warsh it is ندِع? Inda? without the ?Alif? and with a ?Nwn? instead of the ?Ba?.

There is no word in Qur'an with letter sequence ? عِن

Likewise there's no word in Qur'an 3inda ?has? ? عِندَ

http://www.tengugo.com/arabic/arabic1/arabic_1/part_2___useful_arabic/lesson_10c_possession_new#andii

See example manuscripts (if time permits investigate other verses); also note verse is offset by one less since initialed verses e.g. 43:1 حم ha meem were not counted as separate verses in oldest manuscripts; that's later innovation.

Berlin State Library ~85% of total text dated 662-765 CE (95.4%)
Berlin, Staatsbibliothek: Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305)

This manuscript mainly written no alif except scribe used to distinguish ʿibādi with ʿibādu perhaps?

43:15 عباده ʿibādihi (written with alif)
43:19 عبد ʿibādu (no alif)
43:20 عبدنهم abadnāhum (no alif)



Likewise The British Library?s oldest Qur?ān manuscript, Or.2165, dates from the eighth century.
~2/3 of text: Sūrah 7:40 - Sūrah 9:96; Sūrah 10: 9 - Sūrah 39:48; Sūrah 40:63 - Sūrah 43:71

http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=or_2165_f007v

43:15 عبده ʿibādihi (no alif)
43:19 عبد ʿibādu (no alif)
43:20 عبدنهم abadnāhum (no alif)



Likewise The Sana'a manuscript, is one of the oldest Quranic manuscripts in existence. A radiocarbon analysis has dated the parchment containing the lower text to before 671 CE with 99% probability.

https://archive.org/stream/SanaManuscripts-unesscoCdImages/SanaManuscriptsUnesscoCd#page/n9/mode/2up

43:15 عبده ʿibādihi (no alif)
43:19 عبد ʿibādu (no alif)
43:20 عبدنهم abadnāhum (no alif)






The Sardar

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2018, 07:11:03 AM »
It's good someone investigated the "versions" of Al-Quran. I never bought in to that argument. Salam/Peace.

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2018, 04:34:49 PM »
Here?s another 91:15 ولا and not ىخاف feared عقبها consequence its

https://www.free-minds.org/sites/default/files/WhichQuran.pdf

Quote
91:15 in Hafs is ?Wa La? / In Warsh it is ?Fa La? with a ?Fa? instead of a ?Waw?.

Gotthelf Bergstr??er Archive: "Saray Medina 1a" (= Istanbul, Topkapı Sarayı M?zesi: M 1)
Late 1st/early 2nd century before 800 CE looks like written with fa (see last line).
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/15?handschrift=56

Berlin, Staatsbibliothek: Wetzstein II 1925 (Ahlwardt 364)
Manuscript clearly written with wa (see 2nd line) 91:15 ولا and not
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/15?handschrift=480

Berlin, Staatsbibliothek: Wetzstein II 1943 (Ahlwardt 365)
Manuscript clearly written with wa (see 1st line) 91:15 ولا and not
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/15?handschrift=481

Rampur Raza Library: No. 1, Korankodex (ʿAlī b. Abī Ṭālib zugeschrieben)
1st/7th century clearly written with wa 91:15 ولا and not
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/15?handschrift=878

Cairo, al-Maktaba al-Markaziyya li-l-Maḫṭūṭāt al-Islāmiyya: Great Koran Codex
Late Umayyad before 700 CE clearly with wa (last line) 91:15 ولا and not
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/15?handschrift=170

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2018, 11:31:49 AM »
To disappoint numerologists, not about hafs/warsh, verses numbering old manuscripts were different.

1. initialed verses الم alif lam meem etc., not counted and consistently together with next verse.

7:1 المص alif lam meem saad (no end verse mark counted with next verse) 7:2 كتب book انزل descends الىك to you فلا so not ىكن beeth فى in صدرك breast your حرج critical منه from it لتنذر to thou warn به with it وذكرى and reminder للمومنىن to the believers



2. verse counts different on numerous chapters; work in progress can tell by end 10th verse marker.

Chapter 3 was 201 verses not 200 besides 3:1 الم alif lam meem (counted as single verse with 3:2)
Chapter 5 was 122 verses not 120
Chapter 8 was 77 verses not 75   
Chapter 9 was 130 verses not 129
Chapter 19 was 99 verses not 98 besides 19:1 كهىعص Kaaf Ha Ya Ain Sad (counted as single with 19:2)
Chapter 20 was 139 verses not 135 besides 20:1 طه ta ha (counted as single verse along with 20:2)






imrankhawaja

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2018, 08:54:07 PM »
exactly  :handshake:

people who are experts in math can atleast see this clearly .. on the other hand a person who is unaware about math cant understand what  is the purpose of algebra, integration, matrix, geometry, calculus , when we are solving them in book we dnt really understand what is the purpose of doing it but .. infact all that we see(around us from buildings to toys) is based on pure mathematics . and 19 number theory has nothing to do with simple math.

what we get from 19? its the only question i havnt got any satisfactory answer so far..

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2018, 02:19:23 PM »
what we get from 19? its the only question i havnt got any satisfactory answer so far..

Peace, it's nonsense (19 is a prime like 11, 29, etc.,) verses were not revealed with verse numbers.

89:1 والفجر and/by the dawn
89:2 ولىال and the nights عشر ten
89:3 والشفع and the even والوتر and the odd


1.   scribes used an odd-even system to keep count like an accounting ledger
2.   old manuscripts clearly had different counts using same text and system
3.   initially chapters الم alif lam meem etc., not counted as separate verses
4.   changed ~100 years afterwards using the same "text" odd-even system
5.   system had an odd-even balance symmetry which is easily accomplished

see examples chapter 8 with 2 extra verses (8:77) not 8:75 -- large dot end 10 verses marker.

Berlin, Staatsbibliothek: Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/71/handschrift/13



Paris, Biblioth?que nationale de France: Arabe 331
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/71?handschrift=32


Noon waalqalami

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2018, 06:55:12 AM »
Confirmation 4 old manuscripts ch 8 was 77 verses (2 extra, same script) not 75 like today.

Basically verses 8:36 and 8:42 were split into two see manuscripts posted above and below.

Cambridge, Cambridge University Library: Add. 1125
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/36?handschrift=282

8:36 ان indeed الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of ىنفقون spending اموالهم wealth theirs لىصدوا to hinder they of عن about سبىل path الله the god فسىنفقونها so shall spending they it ثم furthermore تكون being علىهم upon them حسره regret ثم furthermore ىغلبون conquered/defeated being (end verse)

(Start new verse) والذىن wa-alladhīna/and the ones كفروا reject they of الى to جهنم abyss ىحشرون gathered being




Cambridge, Cambridge University Library: Add. 1125
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/42?handschrift=282

8:42 اذ when انتم are you بالعدوه in the enemy الدنىا the world وهم and they بالعدوه in the enemy القصوى the top والركب and the caravan اسفل below منكم among you ولو and in case تواعدتم made appointment you لاختلفتم surely divergences/fails you فى in المىعاد the promise ولكن and however لىقضى to decreed الله the god امرا directive of كان be مفعولا fulfilled of (end verse)

(Start new verse) لىهلك liyahlika/that destroyed من whom هلك perished عن about بىنه clear proof وىحىى and yahya من who حى live عن about بىنه clear proof وان and indeed الله the god لسمىع surely hearer علىم knower



The Sardar

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2018, 05:19:30 AM »
Doesn't these so called "versions" completely involved dialects & the diacritic marks? Wouldn't be surprised if it did.

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2018, 09:44:42 AM »
Doesn't these so called "versions" completely involved dialects & the diacritic marks? Wouldn't be surprised if it did.

Peace, above posts are mostly about oldest manuscripts having different verse numbering system.

There are also minor disagreements in spelling, dialectical marks etc. hence warsh/hafs nonsense.


The Sardar

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2018, 10:49:44 AM »
Peace, above posts are mostly about oldest manuscripts having different verse numbering system.

There are also minor disagreements in spelling, dialectical marks etc. hence warsh/hafs nonsense.
Yeah even the claim of Aramiac language against the Qur'an.