Drinking Alcohol is a Sin! Why is it not according to Layth/Edip's Translation?

[IsaMuslim]

In the Name of Allah, The Almighty, The All-Merciful.

I want you people to notice a thing, and then discuss about it.
Visit quranix.org, and jump to verse 2:219

2:219
Reformist Translation: They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say, "In them is great HARM, and a benefit for people; but their HARM is greater than their benefit." They ask you how much are they to give, say, "The excess." Thus, God clarifies for you the signs that you may think.

Monotheist Translation: They ask you about alcohol and gambling. Say: "In them is great HARM, and a benefit for the people; but their HARM is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much they are to give, say: "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.

You will notice that the word "ithm" is translated as "harm" instead of "sin".
But then, in many other verses the very same word "ithm" has been translated as "sin"...!

4:107
Reformist: Do not argue on behalf of those who betray themselves. God does not like those who are betrayers, SINNERS.

Monotheist: And do not argue on behalf of those who betray themselves. God does not love those who are betrayers, SINNERS.

7:33
Reformist: Say, "My Lord has forbidden all lewd action, what is obvious from them and what is subtle, and SIN, aggression without cause, your setting up partners with God that were never authorized by Him, and saying about God what you do not know."

Monotheist: Say: "My Lord has made unlawful immorality; what is public of it and private; and SIN, and aggression without cause, and that you set up partners with God that which He has never authorized, and that you say about God what you do not know."


In all of the above verses, the word "Ithm" has been translated as "Sin" except for the verses regarding intoxicants.
Is this not an attempt to manipulate the Word of God, trying to make lawful what he has prohibited?

He does not say "Intoxicants are Haram", but:
- Using intoxicants is a Sin (Ithm)
- Sins are Haram (7:33, uses a verb coming from the same root of Haram)
- Therefore, intoxicants are Haram

Notice: If you visit free-minds.org/quran, then you will notice that this has instead changed:
2:219
Monotheist Translation: They ask you about alcohol and gambling. Say: "In them is much SIN, and a benefit for the people; but their SIN is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much they are to give, say: "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.

Also, is there a justification for the choice of translating "al-Khamri" to "Alcohol" instead of "Intoxicants"?
I think that "khamri" could also include other substances that have an obfuscating action on the brain, such as psychedelics (LSD, DMT, ...) and meth.
God bless you All.

[HP_TECH]

Because they're gyappas

[huruf]

What is the definition of sin? Is it a magical word that should stop any discussion of something because once we say it is a sin, there no more to say? Because that is what sin has come to mean in christianity and people now laugh at it. So a definition before dealing with it would be necessary.

The Qur'an makes it abundantly clear that what wrong we do we do it against ourselves, against God we cannot do anything.

So what is the big deal, harming oneself and harming others is what? a good deed?

Of course intoxicants are a harm, and since we are duly warned if we still push them as normal and harmless then, what are we doing? It does not matter what you call them, but that we are conscious of what they entail, what they entail is destruction of ourselves and societies.

There are much more harming translations of many things int he Qur'an that betray it.

And also the endless "debate on whether khamr is haram, again as if haram was a magic word that if it is not there would do harmful things harmless. That is a subject that comes up continuously .

On the other hand in this aya 219 there is the mention that there is some benefit to it but that the ithm (whatever you translaTE) is greater. So in a sense translating harm as antonym of benefit is not all that wrong, although of course is not as magical as "sin", or haram. Haram since it is not there when the Qur'an speaks about khamr is used by many who think that drinking spirits is ok, thus disregarding what the Qur'an explains. ?Why, on earth did God bother explaining, when just putting a "haram" in would avoid troubling people with the unbearable burden of thinking and taking responsibility for what they do.

If you do harm deliberately is it a sin? Jege yourself.

Again, fine, we may split hairs with this particular translation of this aya, but I do not see that it is very conflicting. As said, there are many, many translations of elemnts in the Qur'an that of far much more concern.

God's explains things int he Qur'an but people wants to do away with those explanations and reduce everything to haram or halal or sin or not sin. That is not the question. God gives explanations so we are conscious of what we do and its import, not push buttons machines.

Salaam

[Rilum]

Peace Isa,

Thank You. In Khamr is great ithm, and ithm is  according to 7:33 haram, simple as that.

[HP_TECH]

Peace Isa,

Thank You. In Khamr is great ithm, and ithm is  according to 7:33 haram, simple as that.

You are the MVP

[IsaMuslim]

Salaam,
I got your point.
We then both acknowledge that Khamr is Ithm, and Ithm is Haram, but you think that Haram is something more on a personal level?
I am sure that of course each one of us in the end is responsible for one's own actions, but we must remember that it's a duty upon us to teach the good things to our brothers and keep them away from the harmful things. For example, I refer to verse 7:157, where it says that those who follow the ummy prophet which "commands right and forbids wrong", those are the successful ones.
Based on the understanding that ithm is defined as haram and that in khamr there is ithm, wouldn't it be better for a community to avoid it, maybe not by making it illegal as we all should know that prohibitionism fails, but discourage it at a social level?

[hawk99]

Peace Isa,

Thank You. In Khamr is great ithm, and ithm is  according to 7:33 haram, simple as that.

Peace

Not so fast brother Rilum, what about:


قُلْ فِيهِمَا إِثْمٌ كَبِيرٌ وَمَنَافِعُ لِلنَّاس 2:219 They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and benefit for people.
Nun-Fa-Ayn = to profit, do good, be useful, beneficial.

[HP_TECH]

That's not a good objection.
So because something sinful might have a benefit then it should be lawful?
No, killing dumb retarded idiots might be beneficial to me and many intellectuals in the world but it doesn't make unwarranted killing a good or lawful thing.

[The Sardar]

That's not a good objection.
So because something sinful might have a benefit then it should be lawful?
No, killing dumb retarded idiots might be beneficial to me and many intellectuals in the world but it doesn't make unwarranted killing a good or lawful thing.

Salam/Peace i recommend see the whole verse Hawk99 is trying to show:

2:219 يسلونك عن الخمر والميسر قل فيهما اثم كبير ومنفع للناس واثمهما اكبر من نفعهما ويسلونك ماذا ينفقون قل العفو كذلك يبين الله لكم الءايت لعلكم تتفكرون
Yas-aloonaka AAani alkhamri waalmaysiriqul feehima ithmun kabeerun wamanafiAAu lilnnasiwa-ithmuhuma akbaru min nafAAihima wayas-aloonaka mathayunfiqoona quli alAAafwa kathalika yubayyinu Allahulakumu al-ayati laAAallakum tatafakkaroona
They ask you about alcohol and gambling. Say: "In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much they are to give, say: "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.

[huruf]

Salaam,
I got your point.
We then both acknowledge that Khamr is Ithm, and Ithm is Haram, but you think that Haram is something more on a personal level?
I am sure that of course each one of us in the end is responsible for one's own actions, but we must remember that it's a duty upon us to teach the good things to our brothers and keep them away from the harmful things. For example, I refer to verse 7:157, where it says that those who follow the ummy prophet which "commands right and forbids wrong", those are the successful ones.
Based on the understanding that ithm is defined as haram and that in khamr there is ithm, wouldn't it be better for a community to avoid it, maybe not by making it illegal as we all should know that prohibitionism fails, but discourage it at a social level?

That is precisely the question, each muslim should defend the health and integrity of all the others by the means within his or her reach. To impose things on others is not feasible, but to impose things on ourselves it is feasible. And teaching others, if we are convinced that we have something to teach the best way to do it is to behave in such a way that is convincing. Giving orders as if we were entitled is not the way. Talking and iscussing properly and behaving acocrding to what our avowed beliefs are is more convincing.
erst
As to alcohol and others hard drugs, abstaining voluntarily is the most constructive. In that way we help people that might feel tempted by the general trend to drink because everybody drinks. We should think of those who are not bad persons but do have a tendency or weakness for that. The best help we can give them is to male alcohol rarer  and not go along with the trend that those who do not drink are boring or do not like life. But for that we should may be ban words such as haram or sin, because people then think that we do not drink because we are afraid or because we are stupid. We should have good reasons for not drinking and God gives them. Why should we neglect thsoe reasons, those are the reasons why God warns us not to drink, why ignore those reasons and carry on as if we were trained berasts that answer to the leash they do nto understand.

On the other hand, the reasons the Qur'an gives are well known even without Qur'an. That alcoh9ol is a social plague is well known. Beause some people enjoy it and find in it a lot of pleasure or distinction or standing in life with knowledge about this and that harvest, that does nto detract from the fact that alcohol is one of the scourges of many societies. Always full of danger and always unalarming. Apart from the deaths it causes there is all the misfortune, destruction of families and individuals, and rotting away of societies.

Again, there are some benefits to alcohol, but do those out weight the amount of pain and destruction it causes?

Salaam