### Author Topic: 9 and 19  (Read 10281 times)

#### good logic

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##### Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2018, 12:01:18 PM »
What is left for you brother The Sardar now, is work out how it is preserved?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

#### Noon waalqalami

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##### Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2018, 04:38:11 AM »
Why? But who can spell better than this:
وَذَا النّونِ إِذ ذَهَبَ مُغٰضِبًا فَظَنَّ أَن لَن نَقدِرَ عَلَيهِ فَنادىٰ فِى الظُّلُمٰتِ أَن لا إِلٰهَ إِلّا أَنتَ سُبحٰنَكَ إِنّى كُنتُ مِنَ الظّٰلِمينَ

Za-Noon ,Jonah, "the one with an `N' in his name" ن و ن
- Your name sake! Check your mushaf-?
Anyway we had all these conversations before. Is your mathematics still the same?-Random and boring?-
Mine is an amazing miracle.
As usual you say "So what?" . I say "Wow!".

Peace good logic,

21:87 وذا wadha النون l-nuni has nothing to do with 68:1 ن noon والقلم wal-qalami/and (by) the pen
Written in every old manuscript ? all the scribes did not conspire to misspell it according to you.

Don't call multiple hunting ?mathematics? as differential equations, etc., used to solve problems.

It's obvious you are infatuated by boring multiples. Likewise you need to put a disclaimer every time that you post on the subject ? that it is your speculation, no evidence from older manuscripts, on the contrary all evidence refutes it. Otherwise you are dishonest misleading readers.

#### Noon waalqalami

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##### Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2018, 04:59:50 AM »
Salaam Noon waalqalami,

I know that it is not impossible to remove/add verses in an orderly way so that the pattern will stay as it is.
But the more complicated the pattern, the more difficult to make changes in it, or to happen by coincidence.

We have also to consider that which is presented today as some of the numerical structure of the Qur'an,  might be a small part of that what is present in the Qur'an.

Symmetry sum chapters - verses  and even-odd  is maybe only a part of a more complicated pattern.

Not everyone is an expert in math,
so to make the pattern accessible to almost everone it has to contain a simple pattern
so that it is recognizable for most people and a more complicated one(s ) for more knowledgeable people and  experts who challenges the pattern.

note:
The pattern published by member Eid  was discovered by Abdullah Jalghoum.

I know that in this manuscript  chapter 10 has 110 verses

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/10/vers/1/handschrift/163

********************

But in this manuscript  chapter 10 has 109 verses.

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/10/vers/1/handschrift/460

This is written at the beginning of  chapter 10:

ٮوٮس     ماٮه     و    تسع      اٮٮ

younus     mi-ata     wa       tisaa       ayat

younus   hundred    and      nine       verses.

Peace ibn_a,

Again, verse numbers were not revealed with recitation (i.e. "this is verse #, say...") and added by scribes which is obvious from oldest manuscripts and had similar odd-even symmetry while some chapters had different counts and all the initials chapters alif lam meem, etc., were not counted as separate verses.

That re-arrangement was 100+ years later like the manuscript/style from 2nd century that you posted.

The writing style below is oldest and closest to the time: see Perf 558 (643 CE) and Birmingham Quran.

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610067.msg415444#msg415444

https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/news/latest/2015/07/quran-manuscript-22-07-15.aspx

http://www.medievalhistories.com/sensational-fragment-early-quran-identified/

see also Berlin, Staatsbibliothek: Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1/handschrift/163

#### good logic

• Wise One / Burnout
• Posts: 5718
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##### Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2018, 05:23:32 AM »
Peace Noon.
You say, quote:
21:87 وذا wadha النون l-nuni has nothing to do with 68:1 ن noon والقلم wal-qalami/and (by) the pen
Written in every old manuscript ? all the scribes did not conspire to misspell it according to you.

I say, this is no coincidence ,why?
I tell you exactly the connection between Jonah in surah 21  and the spelling of N( ن و ن  )in surah 68

In surah 21 GOD called Jonah "Za Noon" deliberately to show the spelling of N, this draws our attention to surah 68 where GOD called Jonah "Sahibi Al Huti"- The companion of the fish to let you know that there is no need of one extra N (If GOD said Younes-Jonah- your extra N would have been there easily!!!!) I,surah 68 :

68:48
You shall steadfastly persevere in carrying out the commands of your Lord. Do not be like Sahibi Al Huti (Jonah) who called from inside the fish.
فَاصبِر لِحُكمِ رَبِّكَ وَلا تَكُن كَصاحِبِ الحوتِ إِذ نادىٰ وَهُوَ مَكظومٌ
Go on tell me it is another coincidence?

As for a disclaimer, that should be automatically on everyone s words(every human) including yours, according to Qoran-17:36- Until checked.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

#### Noon waalqalami

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##### Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2018, 06:22:00 AM »
Peace Noon.
You say, quote:
21:87 وذا wadha النون l-nuni has nothing to do with 68:1 ن noon والقلم wal-qalami/and (by) the pen
Written in every old manuscript ? all the scribes did not conspire to misspell it according to you.

I say, this is no coincidence ,why?
I tell you exactly the connection between Jonah in surah 21  and the spelling of N( ن و ن  )in surah 68

In surah 21 GOD called Jonah "Za Noon" deliberately to show the spelling of N, this draws our attention to surah 68 where GOD called Jonah "Sahibi Al Huti"- The companion of the fish to let you know that there is no need of one extra N (If GOD said Younes-Jonah- your extra N would have been there easily!!!!) I,surah 68 :

68:48
You shall steadfastly persevere in carrying out the commands of your Lord. Do not be like Sahibi Al Huti (Jonah) who called from inside the fish.
فَاصبِر لِحُكمِ رَبِّكَ وَلا تَكُن كَصاحِبِ الحوتِ إِذ نادىٰ وَهُوَ مَكظومٌ
Go on tell me it is another coincidence?

As for a disclaimer, that should be automatically on everyone s words(every human) including yours, according to Qoran-17:36- Until checked.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace, again you are mindlessly ranting and do not understand your logic.

Why all scribes wrote it as such; 68:1 nothing to do with 21:87 and 68:48?

21:87 وذا wadha النون l-nuni اذ when ذهب left مغاضبا angry of فظن so assume ان that لن never نقدر we decree علىه on him فنادى so called فى in الظلمات the darkness ان that لا not اله deity الا except انت are thou سبحانك majesty you انى indeed I كنت be I من among الظلمىن the wrongdoers

68:1 ن noon والقلم wal-qalami/and (by) the pen وما and what ىسطرون they writing

68:48 فاصبر so patience لحكم for wisdom ربك lord your ولا and not تكن thou be كصاحب like companion الحوت l-ḥūti/the fish اذ when نادى called وهو and he مكظوم distressed

#### good logic

• Wise One / Burnout
• Posts: 5718
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##### Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2018, 06:42:34 AM »
Peace Noon.
Irrelevant. Unless you produce the original copy that the prophet wrote?
Scribes have copied what existed at their time, they also differ in some words (hafs and warsh write and spell some words differently).
All the copies that you are showing have that spelling mistake. It does not prove 68 :1 is only 1 N.

All the indication is with "The future belongs to GOD ,wait ,we are also waiting". The right spelling and how Qoran is preserved is with us now that Mathematics is speaking to us. Qoran has been mathematically composed ,this is a full proof method.
So regardless of the scribes mistakes, we now know exactly how each letter and word are chosen and spelled.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

#### ibn_a

• Apprentice
• Posts: 196
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##### Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2018, 01:37:38 AM »

Salaam Noon waalqalami,

Again, verse numbers were not revealed with recitation (i.e. "this is verse #, say...") and added by scribes which is obvious from oldest manuscripts and had similar odd-even symmetry while some chapters had different counts and all the initials chapters alif lam meem, etc., were not counted as separate verses.

That re-arrangement was 100+ years later like the manuscript/style from 2nd century that you posted.

The writing style below is oldest and closest to the time: see Perf 558 (643 CE) and Birmingham Quran.

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610067.msg415444#msg415444

https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/news/latest/2015/07/quran-manuscript-22-07-15.aspx

http://www.medievalhistories.com/sensational-fragment-early-quran-identified/

see also Berlin, Staatsbibliothek: Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1/handschrift/163

I know that the numbering of verses was later, but the text was separated in those manuscripts, so we know the first verse, verse number 2, verse number 3, ....
----

I do not understand what you mean by this:
Did the scribes know about the even - odd symmetry or is it just a  coincidence?
----

What member Eid posted is only a part of the even - odd symmetry
A  more detailed explanation here:

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/05/even-and-odd-numbers/

----

- The manuscripts you posted ( where the  initial letters are not separated verses )seem to have a  resemblance with the   Warsh reading .
The initial letters in Warsh reading are not separated verses in the 29 chapters.

- In the Hafs reading the initial letters are separated verses in 19 chapters
and not separated verses  in 10  chapters .

----------------

الم         2
الم         3
المص         7
الر تلك ايت الكتب الحكيم       10
الر كتب احكمت ايته ثم فصلت من لدن حكيم خبير       11
الر تلك ايت الكتب المبين       12
المر تلك ايت الكتب و الذي انزل اليك من ربك الحق و لكن اكثر الناس لا يومنون       13
الر كتب انزلنه اليك لتخرج الناس من الظلمت الي النور باذن ربهم الي صرط العزيز الحميد       14
الر تلك ايت الكتب و قران مبين       15
كهيعص       19
طه       20
طسم       26
طس تلك ايت القران و كتاب مبين       27
طسم       28
الم       29
الم       30
الم       31
الم       32
يس       36
ص و القران ذي الذكر       38
حم       40
حم       41
حم 1 عسق 2     42
حم       43
حم       44
حم       45
حم       46
ق و القران المجيد      50
ن و القلم و ما يسطرون      68

#### Noon waalqalami

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• Posts: 1857
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##### Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2018, 12:36:13 PM »
Peace Noon.
Irrelevant. Unless you produce the original copy that the prophet wrote?
Scribes have copied what existed at their time, they also differ in some words (hafs and warsh write and spell some words differently).
All the copies that you are showing have that spelling mistake. It does not prove 68 :1 is only 1 N.

All the indication is with "The future belongs to GOD ,wait ,we are also waiting". The right spelling and how Qoran is preserved is with us now that Mathematics is speaking to us. Qoran has been mathematically composed ,this is a full proof method.
So regardless of the scribes mistakes, we now know exactly how each letter and word are chosen and spelled.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace good logic, if you haven't looked into it then why post?

Perhaps tell us then using your code/whatever how to spell ?

21:3 لاهىه lāhiyatan/divert ? or written لهىه without alif?

I know that the numbering of verses was later, but the text was separated in those manuscripts, so we know the first verse, verse number 2, verse number 3, ....
----

I do not understand what you mean by this:
Did the scribes know about the even - odd symmetry or is it just a  coincidence?
----

What member Eid posted is only a part of the even - odd symmetry
A  more detailed explanation here:

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/05/even-and-odd-numbers/

Peace ibn_a, what you wrote doesn?t make sense? If you agree that numbering of verses was added later i.e. after revelation then it was the scribes who added the verses numbers by separating sentences etc. It was not a coincidence since it was the scribes who added the verse numbers.

It's simple ledger system e.g. remove this verse due to hadith to get a meaningless multiple?

Zayd bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Quran and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. [That verse was]: 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.'"[Quran 33:23][Bukhari Sahih al-Bukhari, 6:61:510]

Then combine any 2 verses in any of these chapters keeps odd-even symmetry?

3   200
5   120
6   165
7   206
8   75
10   109
12   111
19   98
20   135
21   112
23   118
26   227
31   34
33   72
36   83
37   182
40   85
41   54
42   53
44   59
46   35
47   38
48   29
49   18
50   45
51   60
52   49
53   62
54   55
55   78

Zayd also said:

"So I started looking for the Holy quran and collected it from (what was written on) palm-leaf stalks, thin white stones, and also from men who knew it by heart, until I found the last verse of Surat at-Tauba (repentance) with Abi Khuzaima al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p. 478).

Simply remove last 2 verses from ch 9 to get meaningless multiple keep symmetry -- infinite combinations.

- The manuscripts you posted ( where the  initial letters are not separated verses )seem to have a  resemblance with the   Warsh reading .
The initial letters in Warsh reading are not separated verses in the 29 chapters.

Not about hafs/warsh ? where you get warsh count/reading?
Show warsh total verse counts for chapter 20 posted earlier?

Earliest manuscripts end 10 verses marker 20:127 (20:131) thus total 139.
It is the same text yet (4) extra verses not counting chapter title or initials.

20:1 طه ta ha (together with next verse) 20:2 ما not انزلنا descends we of علىك upon you القران the qur?an لتشقى that thou agonize

Berlin, Staatsbibliothek: Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/127/handschrift/163

T?bingen, Universit?tsbibliothek: Ma VI 165
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/127/handschrift/107

#### Rilum

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##### Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2018, 12:47:23 PM »
Where did you get the english translation from?

#### Noon waalqalami

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##### Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2018, 02:41:30 PM »
Where did you get the english translation from?

Peace, translation is mine; structurally close to  Arabic, consistent, allows for quick searches, analytics, etc.