Author Topic: 9 and 19  (Read 10328 times)

Noon waalqalami

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Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2018, 02:14:34 AM »
Earliest manuscripts end 10 verses marker 20:127 (20:131) thus total 139.
It is the same text yet (4) extra verses not counting chapter title or initials.

20:1 طه ta ha (together with next verse) 20:2 ما not انزلنا descends we of علىك upon you القران the qur?an لتشقى that thou agonize

Berlin, Staatsbibliothek: Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/127/handschrift/163

T?bingen, Universit?tsbibliothek: Ma VI 165
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/127/handschrift/107

Peace, chapter 20 is 140 total verses (not counting chapter title) in oldest manuscripts.
The below verse is split into two verses and last verse ch 20 has end 10 verses marker.

20:131 ولا and not تمدن extend عىنىك eyes your الى to ما what متعنا provide we of به with it ازوجا spouses of منهم among them زهره blossom/opulence الحىه the life الدنىا the world (end verse marker)

(start new verse) لنفتنهم linaftinahum/to we test them فىه in it ورزق and provision ربك lord your خىر better وابقى and lasts




good logic

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Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2018, 03:41:35 AM »
Peace Noon.
Is this a random coincidence or have you chosen this verse deliberate?:
لاهِيَةً قُلوبُهُم وَأَسَرُّوا النَّجوَى الَّذينَ ظَلَموا هَل هٰذا إِلّا بَشَرٌ مِثلُكُم أَفَتَأتونَ السِّحرَ وَأَنتُم تُبصِرونَ

It is not how I spell the words .
With Alif it fits in fine.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
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Noon waalqalami

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Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2018, 05:37:03 AM »
Peace Noon.
Is this a random coincidence or have you chosen this verse deliberate?:
لاهِيَةً قُلوبُهُم وَأَسَرُّوا النَّجوَى الَّذينَ ظَلَموا هَل هٰذا إِلّا بَشَرٌ مِثلُكُم أَفَتَأتونَ السِّحرَ وَأَنتُم تُبصِرونَ

It is not how I spell the words .
With Alif it fits in fine.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace, it was asked of you use code/whatever show why with alif?

21:3 لاهىه lāhiyatan/divert (oldest manuscripts spelled لهىه no alif)

T?bingen, Universit?tsbibliothek: Ma VI 165
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/21/vers/3?handschrift=107



Berlin, Staatsbibliothek: Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/21/vers/3/handschrift/163


good logic

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Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2018, 07:38:07 AM »
Peace Noon
Old manuscript just means one way or the other. i.e there could be mistakes of spelling

Like I said ,the original copy that the prophet wrote can then make all the difference and give the right spelling then it must be adhered to

For me,the mathematically composed text in Qoran serves both as an authenticating tool and as a guard to protect and preserve the scripture.
Obviously, finding an original  unaltered Qoran is also extremely important. Then we shall see if it will be proven by the remarkable mathematical design of the Qoran that we have now.
Readers can check all information for themselves. In fact, this strong advice is given in the Qoran itself: "You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them." (17:36).

We  have interlock ,Mathematics has spoken to us now. So I am going by this fool proof method .

Unless you have proof that the old manuscript you have is that original copy written by the prophet, we will only be going back and forth brother Noon.
SO thank you again for the conversation.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

ibn_a

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Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2018, 08:02:11 AM »
Salaam Noon waalqalami,



what you wrote doesn’t make sense? If you agree that numbering of verses was added later i.e. after revelation then it was the scribes who added the verses numbers by separating sentences etc. It was not a coincidence since it was the scribes who added the verse numbers.



Maybe i did not express myself well ( i am not a native english speaker ) .
You said in a previous post that de numbering of the verses was later, what i was trying to say, is that they can number the separated verses later, as the end of the verses were marked.




It's simple ledger system e.g. remove this verse due to hadith to get a meaningless multiple…

Zayd bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Quran and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. [That verse was]: 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.'"[Quran 33:23][Bukhari Sahih al-Bukhari, 6:61:510]

Then combine any 2 verses in any of these chapters keeps odd-even symmetry…

3   200
5   120
6   165
7   206
8   75
10   109
12   111
19   98
20   135
21   112
23   118
26   227
31   34
33   72
36   83
37   182
40   85
41   54
42   53
44   59
46   35
47   38
48   29
49   18
50   45
51   60
52   49
53   62
54   55
55   78

Zayd also said:

"So I started looking for the Holy quran and collected it from (what was written on) palm-leaf stalks, thin white stones, and also from men who knew it by heart, until I found the last verse of Surat at-Tauba (repentance) with Abi Khuzaima al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p. 478).


Simply remove last 2 verses from ch 9 to get meaningless multiple keep symmetry -- infinite combinations.


In a previous  post i said:



I know that it is not impossible to remove/add verses in an orderly way so that the pattern will stay as it is.
But the more complicated the pattern, the more difficult to make changes in it, or to happen by coincidence.



you can not change randomly without destroying the odd-even symmetry in some attempts.
( odd-even symmetry is only a part of the Quran's numerical structure )





Not about hafs/warsh – where you get warsh count/reading?
Show warsh total verse counts for chapter 20 posted earlier?

Earliest manuscripts end 10 verses marker 20:127 (20:131) thus total 139.
It is the same text yet (4) extra verses not counting chapter title or initials.

20:1 طه ta ha (together with next verse) 20:2 ما not انزلنا descends we of علىك upon you القران the qur’an لتشقى that thou agonize

Berlin, Staatsbibliothek: Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/127/handschrift/163



In previous posts you said that the initial letters were part of verses and not separated  verses.
My comment was about the initial letters,  not the total number of verses:


- The manuscripts you posted ( where the  initial letters are not separated verses ) seem to have a  resemblance with the   Warsh reading .
The initial letters in Warsh reading are not separated verses in the 29 chapters.

- In the Hafs reading the initial letters are separated verses in 19 chapters
and not separated verses  in 10  chapters .


It seems that the differences in the number of verses is because of the different qira'at readings. 

"Cutting the same corpus, into verses."

Read more here...page 85 -110 ( variant Quranic Readings,  qira'at   page 100 )

http://www.academia.edu/32938738/The_Sun_Rises_in_the_West_2017_


Example:

Here: a qira'at with 140 verses in chapter 20.

http://audio.islamweb.net/audio/index.php?page=rewayat&rewaya=26


chapter 20. T. H.

http://live.islamweb.net/quran_list/hesham/s20.pdf


The most important is what the Qur'an says about its preservation and numerical structure :


- I believe that the Qur'an we have  today is preserved by God, if not then what are this verses about?

----

15:9   Indeed it is We who have sent down the reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.

----

18:1   Praise be to God who has sent down the Book to His servant, and He has not made in it any crookedness.
18:2   It is valuable, giving warning of the severe punishment from Him; and it gives glad tidings to the believers who do good works, that they will have an excellent reward.

----
41:41   Those who have rejected the reminder when it came to them; and it is an Honorable Book.
41:42   No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from One Most Wise, Praiseworthy.




- And i believe that the numerical structure of the Qur'an prouves/will prouve its preservation.

If there is no numerical structure in the Qur'an, then what are these verses about , counting all things in numbers, 19, have certainty, increase in faith,  that the message is deliverd .... ?


72:28
so as to make manifest that they have delivered the messages of their Lord, and He surrounds all that is with them, and He has counted the number of all things.

                                                                        ------------------------

74:25   "This is nothing except the saying of a human being."
...

74:30   Upon it is nineteen.
74:31
We have appointed only angels to be wardens of the fire, and their number have We made to be a stumbling block for those who disbelieve; that those to whom the scripture hath been given may have certainty, and that believers may increase in faith; and that those to whom the Scripture hath been given and believers may not doubt; and that those in whose hearts there is disease, and disbelievers, may say: What meaneth Allah by this similitude? Thus Allah sendeth astray whom He will, and whom He will He guideth. None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him. This is naught else than a Reminder unto mortals.
...
74:35   It is one of the great ones.
74:36   A warning to human beings.

Salam see this verses:

85:21 بل هو قرءان مجيد
Bal huwa qur'?nun maj?dun
No,it is a glorious Qur'an.
85:22 فى لوح محفوظ
F? lawHin maHf?Zin
In a tablet, preserved.

Noon waalqalami

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Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2018, 08:27:08 AM »
We  have interlock ,Mathematics has spoken to us now. So I am going by this fool proof method .

Imaginary interlock multiple hunting/numerology is as ignorant as flat earth and absurd hadith.

It was interesting conversing with everyone, need to focus on work ? have nice life all the best.

Peace!

ibn_a

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Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2018, 08:53:23 AM »
Salaam,



- chapter 27 Al-Naml  is linked to chapter  9 Al-Tawbah because of the absence of the basmalah in
  chapter 9  Al-Tawbah and the inside basmalah in chapter 27  Al-Naml .

- chapter Al-Naml has 93 verses.
- All verses end with the letter nun  ن except 9 verses, ending with the letter meem  م
84 verses end with the letter nun  ن
9 verses end with the letter meem م
--------------
- The 9 words at the end of the  9 verses ending  with the letter meem  م consist of 9 different letters .

عليم    الحكيم   رحيم  عظيم  العظيم  كريم  الرحيم   كريم  العليم

ع  ل  ي  م  ا  ح  ك  ر ظ
------------
- The sum of of the verse numbers of these 9 verses ending with the letter meem م is 252

    6 + 9 + 11 + 23 + 26 + 29 + 30 + 40 + 78 = 252   is a multiple of 9   (  252 = 9 ? 28 )


-The letter meem م is mentioned in chapter 27 Al-Naml  396 times, a multiple of 9
 ( 396 = 9 ? 44 )

44 is the sum of the letters of the 9 words at the end of the  9 verses ending  with the letter meem م





link to chapter  9 Al-Tawbah

- There are 9 words beginning with the letter meem  م at the end of  9 verses in chapter  27  Al-Naml .
- These 9 words consist of 9 different letters .

و   د  ر  س ل  م  ب ي ن

    verse number and last word:

81   80   75   42   38   31   21   13   1

مبين    مبين   مبين  مسلمين   مسلمين   مسلمين   مبين   مدبرين   مسلمون       
 


A reference to the chapter number 27  Al-Naml ?

- The word Allah الله is mentioned 27 times in chapter Al-Naml.

-The first initial letter of chapter Al-Naml is the letter  ط  and this letter is repeated 27 times in this chapter.


chapter 27 Al-Naml  verse 27

This verse  has 27 letters.

قال سننظر اصدقت ام كنت من الكذبين

ق ا ل س ن ن ظ ر ا ص د ق ت ا م ك ن ت م ن ا ل ك ذ ب ي ن


27:27    He said, "We will see if you are being truthful or are one of those who lie."

----------

This verse is the 3186  th verse from the beginning of the Qur'an

3186 = 27 ?118

----------

and the 3051  th verse from the end of the Qur'an.

3051 = 27 ?113

-----------

- The letter qaf ق   is repeated 120 times in this chapter, equal to the sum of the chapter  number ( 27 ) and the number of verses ( 93 ).

- The first letter of verse 27 is the letter qaf ق and  is preceded by 27  letters qaf ق   from the  beginning of this chapter.

 - And from  verse 27 to the end of this chapter  there are 93 letters qaf ق    

- The initial letter seen س  is repeated 93 times in this chapter.

----------

source:
Arabic:
https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir33323/#.WutE_38uCCi
https://www.quranway.com/article/%D9%85%D9%88%D8%A7%D8%B2%D9%8A%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%86%D9%85%D9%84


The software for counting verses , words and letters,....( arabic)

http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/1/1690-2014-07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9obKsQW-2LlazNfQjRGYS1ORlk/view



ibn_a

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Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2018, 10:22:16 AM »
Salaam,



 - There is only one chapter (  chapter 82 ) in the Quran that ends with the name " Allah " , this  chapter has 19 verses.

- and this is the 19 th occurrance of the name " Allah  " from the end of the Quran.


82:19
Yawma la tamliku nafsun linafsin shay-an waal-amru yawma-ithin lillahi

A day on which no soul hath power at all for any (other) soul. The (absolute) command on that day is Allah's. ( M. M. Pickthall )   

يَوْمَ لَا تَمْلِكُ نَفْسٌ لِّنَفْسٍ شَيْئًا وَالْأَمْرُ يَوْمَئِذٍ لِّلَّهِ   


The software for counting verses , words and letters,....( arabic)

http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/1/1690-2014-07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9obKsQW-2LlazNfQjRGYS1ORlk/view




imrankhawaja

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Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2018, 06:38:41 PM »
some more facts...

if there is only one chapter ending with name ALLAH then there must b one chapter started with the name of Allah oooh hold on for a second....

infact every chapter started with the name of GOD. but lets keep the bislmillahs section at side for the sake of argument and we can see there is only one chapter i e chap 3 in which u can see the speech started with Allah but there is one quranic initial is before that ?

so how you see that coincidence with help of any code thing ? do some trials you may find some multiples of 19 with lot of fail trials ?

now its quite intersting or a coincidence all this research i did in just 10 mins.. to find out the hidden failed trials lol

another thing what i find out is ,even in some chapters there is not a name of God mention= ( if we keep the bismillah section at side) more intresting thing , right in the middle of quran cahpters( 3 chapters )in a row dnt even have name Allah in all of the speech of those chapters 54,55,56

i wonder how possible the name of Allah missing in a beautiful chapter like 55 ?

only we can find out with the help of code nineteen so i request all of them to help me understanding it with code ?

ibn_a

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Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2018, 08:19:31 AM »
Salaam,



For those who oppose a numerical structure of the Quran,
what is your understanding of these verses in chapter 74 and the purpose of  mentioning number 19 ?



74:24       Faqala in hatha illa sihrun yu' tharu

74:25       In hatha illa qawlu albashari

74:26       Saosleehi saqara

74:27       Wama adraka ma saqaru

74:28       La tubqee wala tatharu

74:29       Lawwahatun lilbashari

74:30       AAalayha tisAAata AAashara

74:31       Wama jaAAalna as-haba alnnari illa mala-ikatan wama jaAAalna AAiddatahum illa fitnatan lillatheena kafaroo liyastayqina allatheena ootoo alkitaba wayazdada allatheena amanoo eemanan wala yartaba allatheena ootoo alkitaba waalmu/minoona waliyaqoola allatheena fee quloobihim maradun waalkafiroona matha arada Allahu bihatha mathalan kathalika yudillu Allahu man yashao wayahdee man yashao wama yaAAlamu junooda rabbika illa huwa wama hiya illa thikra lilbashari

74:32       Kalla waalqamari

74:33       Waallayli ith adbara

74:34       Waalssubhi itha asfara

74:35       Innaha la-ihda alkubari

74:36       Natheeran lilbashari


And your understanding of this verse :


72:28     LiyaAAlama an qad ablaghoo risalati rabbihim waahata bima ladayhim waahsa kulla shay-in AAadadan