Author Topic: 9 and 19  (Read 6907 times)

ibn_a

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9 and 19
« on: March 14, 2018, 01:59:32 AM »
Salaam.

Of the all Qur?n, chapter 9  is distinguished by being the only one that does not open with a  basmalah.
And chapter 27  is the only one that contains an inside basmalah, in addition to its opening basmalah.

Let us note, within the framework of this relation between 9 and 27, that the number 9 is the only one to be cited in chapter 27. It is cited 2 times.  (4 times in the Qur?n)

 The first time in verse 12:
"And make your hand accede to your pocket: it comes out white, different from the stain, in nine signs, to Pharaoh and his community, they were certainly a community [of] perverts"

 And the second time in verse 48:
"And there were in the state nine related ones who corrupt on the earth and do not reform "

The two instances of 9 cited in chapter 27 are located symmetrically on either side of the singular  basmalah(verse 30), one before it and the other after, at an equal distance.

And it is a 19 -verse distance. Indeed, from verse 12 to verse 30, which contains the singular basmalah, there are 19 verses, as well as from verse 30 to verse 48.

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30
30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48

source: (book: english): www.academia.edu/32938738/The_Sun_Rises_in_the_West_2017_

ibn_a

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Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2018, 12:35:51 AM »
Salaam,


- chapter 27 Al-Naml  is linked to chapter  9 Al-Tawbah because of the absence of the basmalah in
  chapter 9  Al-Tawbah and the inside basmalah in chapter 27  Al-Naml .

- chapter Al-Naml has 93 verses.
- All verses end with the letter nun  ن except 9 verses, ending with the letter meem  م
84 verses end with the letter nun  ن
9 verses end with the letter meem م
--------------
- The 9 words at the end of the  9 verses ending  with the letter meem  م consist of 9 different letters .

عليم    الحكيم   رحيم  عظيم  العظيم  كريم  الرحيم   كريم  العليم

ع  ل  ي  م  ا  ح  ك  ر ظ
------------
- The sum of of the verse numbers of these 9 verses ending with the letter meem م is 252

    6 + 9 + 11 + 23 + 26 + 29 + 30 + 40 + 78 = 252   is a multiple of 9   (  252 = 9 ? 28 )


-The letter meem م is mentioned in chapter 27 Al-Naml  396 times, a multiple of 9
 ( 396 = 9 ? 44 )

44 is the sum of the letters of the 9 words at the end of the  9 verses ending  with the letter meem م


******************

A reference to the chapter number 27  Al-Naml ?

- The word Allah الله is mentioned 27 times in chapter Al-Naml.

-The first initial letter of chapter Al-Naml is the letter  ط  and this letter is repeated 27 times in this chapter.

*****************
    

                    
verse   last word      

   1      مبين   
   2      للمومنين   
   3      يوقنون
   4      يعمهون   
   5      الاخسرون   
   6      عليم   
   7      تصطلون   
   8      العلمين   
   9      الحكيم   
   10      المرسلون   
   11      رحيم   
   12      فسقين   
   13      مبين   
   14      المفسدين   
   15      المومنين   
   16      المبين   
   17      يوزعون   
   18      يشعرون   
   19      الصلحين   
   20      الغايبين   
   21      مبين   
   22      يقين   
   23      عظيم   
   24      يهتدون   
   25      تعلنون   
   26      العظيم   
   27      الكذبين   
   28      يرجعون   
   29      كريم   
   30      الرحيم   
   31      مسلمين   
   32      تشهدون   
   33      تامرين   
   34      يفعلون   
   35      المرسلون   
   36      تفرحون   
   37      صغرون   
   38      مسلمين   
   39      امين   
   40      كريم   
   41      يهتدون   
   42      مسلمين   
   43      كفرين   
   44      العلمين   
   45      يختصمون   
   46      ترحمون   
   47      تفتنون   
   48      يصلحون   
   49      لصدقون   
   50      يشعرون   
   51      اجمعين   
   52      يعلمون   
   53      يتقون   
   54      تبصرون   
   55      تجهلون   
   56      يتطهرون   
   57      الغبرين   
   58      المنذرين   
   59      يشركون   
   60      يعدلون   
   61      يعلمون   
   62      تذكرون   
   63      يشركون   
   64      صدقين   
   65      يبعثون   
   66      عمون   
   67      لمخرجون   
   68      الاولين   
   69      المجرمين   
   70      يمكرون   
   71      صدقين   
   72      تستعجلون   
   73      يشكرون   
   74      يعلنون   
   75      مبين   
   76      يختلفون   
   77      للمومنين   
   78      العليم   
   79      المبين   
   80      مدبرين   
   81      مسلمون   
   82      يوقنون   
   83      يوزعون   
   84      تعملون   
   85      ينطقون   
   86      يومنون   
   87      دخرين   
   88      تفعلون   
   89      امنون   
   90      تعملون   
   91      المسلمين   
   92      المنذرين   
   93      تعملون   

            
   


The last verse of chapter 27  Al-Naml :

وقل الحمد لله سيريكم ايته فتعرفونها وما ربك بغفل عما تعملون

And say, “All praise is due to God! In time He will show you His Signs, so that you will recognize them.”
And your Lord is not unaware of whatever you do. 27:93         
   
source: ( arabic )
https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir33323/#.WtYV8n8uCCg

good logic

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Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2018, 03:15:53 AM »
Some will say useless numerology, so what? Oh and they want to see the failure of this numerology elsewhere in the text!
Some will become certain the text  can only be from the Lord of the universe. GOD counted the number of everything.
GOD will surely keep showing His signs to this and future generations.
Thank you for the info.
GOD bless.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

ibn_a

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Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2018, 08:09:56 AM »
Salaam good logic,


Thanks for your interest.


Some will say useless numerology, so what? Oh and they want to see the failure of this numerology elsewhere in the text!
Some will become certain the text  can only be from the Lord of the universe. GOD counted the number of everything.
GOD will surely keep showing His signs to this and future generations.
...

I agree.


Constructive criticism is sometime useful it helps to do a more profound research and see things from a different angle.
We have to be ojective when we look into the numerical structure of the Qur'an,
some of what is published,  is forced, exaggerated or coincidence.


We have also to consider that which is presented today as some of the numerical structure of the Qur'an,  might be a small part of that what is present in the Qur'an.

An objective observer has to differentiate between numerology, coincidence and a pattern.

example:

a book has 114 chapters ,
and all the chapters start with the same titel consisting of 19 letters,
except chapter 9 ,
but 19 chapters further ,
inside chapter 27 the same titel is present.
In chapter 27  some indications to the number  9.
The number 9 is mentioned two times surrounding the same titel consisting of 19 letters.
at a 19 -verse distance.
And number 19 is mentioned in this book as a response to the claim :
"This is nothing but the words of a human."
.....
Is this a coincidence ,numerology or a pattern?



Noon waalqalami

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Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2018, 11:43:15 AM »
Is this a coincidence ,numerology or a pattern?

Peace,

?   Not coincidences if going through combinations only showing what excites you leave out failures
?   Pattern e.g. odd-even symmetry is primarily due to scribes adding verse numbers to keep count
?   Verse numbers did NOT come with revelations, oldest manuscripts used different verse counts
?   E.g. older manuscripts did not count initials as separate verses: that was about 100 years later

?   Chapter 27 had 94 verses (95 if include chapter title) not 93 as today -- although same script
?   See below large marker end of 10 verses thus verse 27:90 is really 27:91 and 27:93 is 27:94
?   See Hafs or Warsh thread which is a bunch of nonsense since no one looked into it thoroughly

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610132.msg415476#msg415476

Paris, Biblioth?que nationale de France: Arabe 333 (b)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/27/vers/31/handschrift/570



Paris, Biblioth?que nationale de France: Arabe 333 (b)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/27/vers/91/handschrift/570





good logic

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Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2018, 11:59:45 AM »
Thank you for your reply.
For me the following tells me everything I need to know about Qoran:
It is we who will collect it into Quran. 75:17إِنَّ عَلَينا جَمعَهُ وَقُرءانَهُ

The geometrical value of the word ( Jam?u = Collector or Gatherer ) is 114.
 There is NO co-incidence. God knows since creation that He will be the Collector of the Quran, the Gatherer of the revelations and He assigned the value 114 to the word, J =3, A =1, M= 40 and A?in = 70 = 114
That is why there are 114 surahs.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

Noon waalqalami

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Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2018, 05:12:20 PM »
For me the following tells me everything I need to know about Qoran:
It is we who will collect it into Quran. 75:17إِنَّ عَلَينا جَمعَهُ وَقُرءانَهُ

The geometrical value of the word ( Jam?u = Collector or Gatherer ) is 114.
 There is NO co-incidence. God knows since creation that He will be the Collector of the Quran, the Gatherer of the revelations and He assigned the value 114 to the word, J =3, A =1, M= 40 and A?in = 70 = 114
That is why there are 114 surahs.

Peace, no alif in the word جمعه jamʿahu

ج م ع ه

3 + 40 + 70 + 5 = 118
OR
3 + 40 + 70 = 113 (no hu)

Likewise ch 75 was 39 verses (40 with chapter title) 75:16 and 75:17 were together.

75:16 لا not تحرك move به in/with it لسنك tongue your لتعجل to thou hasten به in/with it
(No end verse marks i.e. was counted together with next verse as a single verse)
75:17 ان indeed علىنا upon us جمعه jamʿahu/assembly its وقرانه and recitation its

Paris, Biblioth?que nationale de France: Arabe 324 (c)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/75/vers/17?handschrift=24



Gotthelf-Bergstr??er-Archiv: "Saray Medina 1a" (= Istanbul, Topkapı Sarayı M?zesi: M 1)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/75/vers/17/handschrift/56




Rilum

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Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2018, 11:59:12 PM »
Salam,
Where did you get these pictures from Noon waalqalami?

The Sardar

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Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2018, 07:11:08 AM »
Salam,
Where did you get these pictures from Noon waalqalami?
Salam/Peace, check the links Noon gave.

ibn_a

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Re: 9 and 19
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2018, 08:18:18 AM »
Salaam Noon waalqalami,


•   Not coincidences if going through combinations only showing what excites you leave out failures



The failures are not a proof of the absance of a pattern.
The failures are the result of researchers not knowing how the pattern looks like.

Example (from the Qur'an we have today 114 chapters and 6236 verses) :
If you are searching for multiples of 19:

The Qur'an has 6236 verses, not a multiple of 19
The 19 th chapter has 98 verses, not a multiple of 19
The sum of the first half of the Qur'an or the second half, not a multiple of 19
The  number of the chapters with initial letters, not a multiple of 19
The sum of the numbers of the chapters with initial letters, not a multiple of 19
....
The failures here, is because it is not intended to be a multiple of 19 , i think it serves an other purpose in the numerical structure of the Qur'an.

If you write a book and put a pattern in it, then the failed attempts of those searching for this pattern,  does not not make your book pattenless.




•   Pattern e.g. odd-even symmetry is primarily due to scribes adding verse numbers to keep count


Do you think that the scribes made the division of the Quranic text to obtain this?

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9666.msg196954#msg196954







                                                           ---------------------------------

•   Chapter 27 had 94 verses (95 if include chapter title) not 93 as today -- although same script
•   See below large marker end of 10 verses thus verse 27:90 is really 27:91 and 27:93 is 27:94


- I believe that the Qur'an we have  today is preserved by God, if not then what are this verses about?

----

15:9   Indeed it is We who have sent down the reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.

----

18:1   Praise be to God who has sent down the Book to His servant, and He has not made in it any crookedness.
18:2   It is valuable, giving warning of the severe punishment from Him; and it gives glad tidings to the believers who do good works, that they will have an excellent reward.

----
41:41   Those who have rejected the reminder when it came to them; and it is an Honorable Book.
41:42   No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from One Most Wise, Praiseworthy.


*********************

I looked into some of these manuscripts ( incomplete ) and found some differences between them in the the division of the Quranic text and some words :

example:

chapter 10

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/10/vers/1/handschrift/163

110 verses (in this manuscript)

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/10/vers/1/handschrift/460

109 verses (in this manuscript)

*********************

chapter 18

 https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/18/vers/1/handschrift/163

109 verses? (in this manuscript)   (difficult to read, someone can confirm?)

https://archive.org/stream/QuranTubingenUniversity/Quran%20-%20Tubingen%20University%20-%20oldest%20MaVI165#page/n7/mode/2up

105 verses  (in this manuscript)


*********************


In this manuscript chapter Al-Jinn 72:9   the word شهابا ( shihaben,flame) seems missing .

وانا كنا نقعد منها مقعد للسمع فمن يستمع الان يجد له شهابا رصدا
72:9

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/72/vers/7/handschrift/170/flip/1


*********************
note:
In chapter 2 the word Ibrahim is written A B R H M  ابرهم    in 12 verses ( 15 times ) and in the rest of the quran it is written A B R H I M  ابرهيم    in 51 verses (54 times ) in 24 chapters, in the quran we have today ( 114 chapters and 6236 verses ).

*********************

In this manuscript in chapter 2 the word Ibrahim is written:

 A B R H I M   ابرهيم

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/132/handschrift/163
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/126/handschrift/163

                                             
*********************


In this manuscript in chapter 2  the word Ibrahim is written:

sometimes A B R H M  ابرهم  and sometimes   A B R H I M  ابرهيم

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/124/handschrift/170
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/125/handschrift/170/flip/1
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/130/handschrift/170/flip/1
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/133/handschrift/170/flip/1


***********************


- And i believe that the numerical structure of the Qur'an prouves/will prouve its preservation.

If there is no numerical structure in the Qur'an, then what are these verses about , counting all things in numbers, 19, have certainty, increase in faith,  that the message is deliverd .... ?


72:28
so as to make manifest that they have delivered the messages of their Lord, and He surrounds all that is with them, and He has counted the number of all things.

                                                                        ------------------------

74:25   "This is nothing except the saying of a human being."
...

74:30   Upon it is nineteen.
74:31
We have appointed only angels to be wardens of the fire, and their number have We made to be a stumbling block for those who disbelieve; that those to whom the scripture hath been given may have certainty, and that believers may increase in faith; and that those to whom the Scripture hath been given and believers may not doubt; and that those in whose hearts there is disease, and disbelievers, may say: What meaneth Allah by this similitude? Thus Allah sendeth astray whom He will, and whom He will He guideth. None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him. This is naught else than a Reminder unto mortals.
...
74:35   It is one of the great ones.
74:36   A warning to human beings.