The word "prison" in the qur'an

[Ju5]

The word prison is used by example in 12:36, occurences in this link : http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=sjn#(12:36:3).
Why didn't Allah used the word "prison" and told us, according to some admins and known forum contributors, to put people in jail by using the words "cut the hands" ? see 5:38 (Layth, a free-minds.org admin, says : "cutting" their abilities)


5:38[As for] the thief, the male and the female, amputate their hands in recompense for what they committed as a deterrent [punishment] from Allah. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.

others examples of cutting hands :


7:124 I will surely cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides; then I will surely crucify you all."

5:33  Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

If Allah used the word prison some hands would never have been cut. So is "cutting the abilities" the real translation, or a wish from peaceful qur'anists?

[The Sardar]

Salam/Peace i don't know if this help but check these posts:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608291.msg384220#msg384220 Started by Reel.
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608169.msg382141#msg382141 Started by Uq

[Jafar]

5:33  Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

If Allah used the word prison some hands would never have been cut. So is "cutting the abilities" the real translation, or a wish from peaceful qur'anists?

4 Gentleman With Hand and Feet Cut Off From Opposite Slides

This is an ancient practice in Middle East, especially towards captured enemy soldiers.

Severed Hands Discovered in Ancient Egypt Palace
https://www.livescience.com/22267-severed-hands-ancient-egypt-palace.html

The objective is to ensure that the captured enemy will not have any means to fight (future) wars. Thus rendered him obsolete as 'military asset' plus a burden to the society of the enemy. Yet still 'trade-able' for ransom on their release... $$$

Thank God human has evolved (relatively) more civilized since 1400 years ago, there's a Geneva convention in place on how to treat Prisoner Of War, although not claiming to 'came from God or Deities' but it's far more humane and a 'radical' turnaround on underlying principle. Instead of seeing "captured soldiers" as "Evil" / "Kuffar" / "Enemy Of The God" thus deserves such horrible treatment, the Geneva convention viewed "captured soldiers" as "professional soldiers" who merely followed an order coming from their superior thus deserves a good and humane treatment.

And to answer your question: Yes it is a 'wish' from "peaceful Quranist".
Yet I cast my vote and support to "Peaceful Quranist" (or peaceful biblicalist, peaceful torahist, peaceful atheist etc..) vis-a-vis their holy ideology.

Don't let your conscience and common sense beaten by fear coming from 'holy book'...

[The Sardar]

And to answer your question: Yes it is a 'wish' from "peaceful Quranist".
Yet I cast my vote and support to "Peaceful Quranist" (or peaceful biblicalist, peaceful torahist, peaceful atheist etc..) vis-a-vis their holy ideology.

Don't let your conscience and common sense beaten by fear coming from 'holy book'...

I'm not quite sure about if it's a wish, more like research. Also check this article from Quranic Path: http://www.quranicpath.com/finerpoints/cut_hands_feet.html

[good logic]

Peace The Sardar.
Those who claim GOD is commanding the punishment in 5:33 will argue against the explanation in your link by saying 5:34 confirms it?

My opinion is that GOD is saying to those who corrupt the earth by handing the punishment of "cutting limbs" ( As in pharaoh s case and  similar tyrant),that their punishment should apply to them, adding in 5:34 that this punishment must not be carried out if they repent and correct their ways. The best justice by far.
I do not see a command but a way out for the tyrants.

Coming back to "cutting the hand of the thief in وَالسّارِقُ وَالسّارِقَةُ فَاقطَعوا أَيدِيَهُما جَزاءً بِما كَسَبا نَكٰلًا مِنَ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهُ عَزيزٌ حَكيمٌ
1- Which hand? or both hands? Since the verse says "Aydiyahuma- The hands(Plural) of both thieves!!!
2- What about"Jaza an Bima Kassaba",how would you recompense the victim? By giving him/her the hand or hands?
3-What is"Iktau Aydiyahuma as an idiom? like "Bima Kassabat Aydykum means "what you earned"?
4- "Jaza an Bima Jassaba"  Recompense of what they earned/took, Does cutting the hand/s give back the value/goods to the victim?
If you insist it is "cutting the hand" you will have a problem with the second part of the verse "Jazaan Bima Kassaba"
5- You also will have a problem with how many hands each and how?
No details of how to carry out this punishment is given anywhere!!!!
Common sense and context of the whole verse will tell you that GOD is saying "cut off from what they earn/steal to return the stolen goods
Notice how GOD  is not saying to us "not to carry out the punishment" if they repent in 5:39. Unlike 5:34 where GOD has clearly said "Do not carry out the punishment" if they repent. What GOD has clearly said if they repent(stop any further thieving) then GOD will forgive them.
GOD is simply saying to take back from the thief what they have stolen-"Jaza an Bima Kassaba"- either  retake the goods or the value from what they have taken/earned.
who insist that 5:38 says "Cut the hand"  can do so, but in no way they will be able to explain the whole verse in a way that makes sense or agrees clearly on how to carry out this punishment.
I simply will say "Iktau Aydiyahuman" is an idiom that means "Cut off their earnings/stolen goods" from them, Jaza an Bima Kassaba" to recompense for what has been stolen.
GOD bless you.
Peace. 

[The Sardar]

Peace The Sardar.
Those who claim GOD is commanding the punishment in 5:33 will argue against the explanation in your link by saying 5:34 confirms it?

Salam/Peace brother Good Logic, i am trying to find what you said in the article but i couldn't find it. I'll just copy & paste it here:

Verse 5:33 - "Cut off alternate hands and feet"

Verse 5:33 has frequently been quoted by disbelievers against the Qur'an. To understand the verse we need to be aware of the Qur'an as a whole - as well as be in possession of the necessary faith and wisdom provided by Allah. Initially, here is verse 5:33 on its own:

إِنَّمَا جَزَاءُ الَّذِينَ يُحَارِبُونَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِي الأَرْضِ فَسَادًا أَنْ يُقَتَّلُوا أَوْ يُصَلَّبُوا أَوْ تُقَطَّعَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَأَرْجُلُهُمْ مِنْ خِلافٍ أَوْ يُنْفَوْا مِنَ الأَرْضِ ذَلِكَ لَهُمْ خِزْيٌ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَلَهُمْ فِي الآخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ

"The recompense of those who fight Allah and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is their disgrace in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great torment." (Qur'an 5:33)

The Qur'an has to be interpreted as a whole. A believer must use his or her Quranic wisdom and knowledge when reading a particular verse. This requires him to have read the Qur'an before-hand and be able to use wisdom in applying his knowledge of other verses.

The expression in verse 5:33 is very specifically defined. For example, "hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides." i.e. left foot and right hand. Elsewhere in the Qur'an, we find that one of the greatest tyrants on the earth, 'the pharaoh' threatens the few true believers who had joined the Prophet Moses in the same manner:

قَالَ آمَنْتُمْ لَهُ قَبْلَ أَنْ آذَنَ لَكُمْ إِنَّهُ لَكَبِيرُكُمُ الَّذِي عَلَّمَكُمُ السِّحْرَ فَلأُقَطِّعَنَّ أَيْدِيَكُمْ وَأَرْجُلَكُمْ مِنْ خِلافٍ وَلأُصَلِّبَنَّكُمْ فِي جُذُوعِ النَّخْلِ وَلَتَعْلَمُنَّ أَيُّنَا أَشَدُّ عَذَابًا وَأَبْقَى

"He (Pharoah) said: 'Have you believed in him before taking my permission? He is surely your great one who has taught you magic. So, I will cut off your hands and feet from alternate sides, and I will crucify you on the trunks of the palm trees, and you will come to know which of us is greater in retribution and more lasting!' " (Qur'an 20:71)

This is repeated once again in the Qur'an:

قَالَ فِرْعَوْنُ آمَنْتُمْ بِهِ قَبْلَ أَنْ آذَنَ لَكُمْ إِنَّ هَذَا لَمَكْرٌ مَكَرْتُمُوهُ فِي الْمَدِينَةِ لِتُخْرِجُوا مِنْهَا أَهْلَهَا فَسَوْفَ تَعْلَمُونَ

{123} 'Pharaoh said: 'Have you become believers before I have given you permission? This is surely some scheme which you have schemed in the city to drive its people out; you will reveal what you know".' (Qur'an 7:123)

لأُقَطِّعَنَّ أَيْدِيَكُمْ وَأَرْجُلَكُمْ مِنْ خِلافٍ ثُمَّ لأُصَلِّبَنَّكُمْ أَجْمَعِينَ

{124} "...'I will cut off your hands and feet from alternate sides, then I will crucify you all'."

قَالُوا إِنَّا إِلَى رَبِّنَا مُنْقَلِبُونَ

{125} "They said: 'It is to our Lord that we will return'." (Qur'an 7:125)

The point to ponder over is, why is the specific threat pharaoh made repeated in the same manner by Allah in verse 5:33 (i.e. cutting alternate hands and feet and crucifixion)?

This is because Allah is not actually commanding the believers to carry out this punishment in verse 5:33. Rather, it is a statement against pharaoh's quote who threatened the believers. More specifically, in 5:33 Allah is inferring that it is not the believers (who follow Allah's messengers) who deserved that, rather those who fight against Allah and His messenger (how pharaoh did), who truly deserve the punishment they wish to inflict on the believers. This point is made in a striking way by referring ironically to pharaoh's threats to the believers.

This interesting observation conforms further with the verse immediately before 5:33, which sets the context of the time of pharaoh! Both 5:32 and 5:33 are quoted below:

مِنْ أَجْلِ ذَلِكَ كَتَبْنَا عَلَى بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ أَنَّهُ مَنْ قَتَلَ نَفْسًا بِغَيْرِ نَفْسٍ أَوْ فَسَادٍ فِي الأَرْضِ فَكَأَنَّمَا قَتَلَ النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا وَمَنْ أَحْيَاهَا فَكَأَنَّمَا أَحْيَا النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا وَلَقَدْ جَاءَتْهُمْ رُسُلُنَا بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ ثُمَّ إِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِنْهُمْ بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ فِي الأَرْضِ لَمُسْرِفُون.َ

{32} "It is because of this that We have decreed for the Children of Israel: 'Anyone who kills a person who has not committed murder, or who has not committed corruption in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! And whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people.' Our messengers had come to them with clarification, but many of them are, after this, are corrupting on the Earth."

{This sets the context of pharaoh's response to Moses}

إِنَّمَا جَزَاءُ الَّذِينَ يُحَارِبُونَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِي الأَرْضِ فَسَادًا أَنْ يُقَتَّلُوا أَوْ يُصَلَّبُوا أَوْ تُقَطَّعَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَأَرْجُلُهُمْ مِنْ خِلافٍ أَوْ يُنْفَوْا مِنَ الأَرْضِ ذَلِكَ لَهُمْ خِزْيٌ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَلَهُمْ فِي الآخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيم

{33} "The recompense of those who fight Allah and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is their disgrace in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution."

Thus, the immediate context of Pharaoh's time also supports the understanding that this verse is in relation to pharoah's threat described in other verses. Lastly, note that even grammatically, the verse is not worded in the imperative (as an order or command). It is written in the manner in the translation ("that they be killed or crucified..."). This compares with pharaoh's "i will do", commanding sentence.

Therefore, this verse makes the powerful point that those disbelievers who threaten 'Allah and His Messenger' with punishment and persecution, they are actually the ones who truly deserve the same retribution - not Allah's messengers or the believers who invite mankind to the ways of peace - to know their Creator and the existence of the Hereafter.

[good logic]

Thank you brother The Sardar.
I understand that argument. I think there is a point there but it is incomplete.
I gave my opinion that is all.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[The Sardar]

Thank you brother The Sardar.
I understand that argument. I think there is a point there but it is incomplete.
I gave my opinion that is all.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

It's alright. What is it that the point is incomplete?

[good logic]

there was 5:34 to consider as well..
As far as Qoran is concerned, regardless of what other people make of its verses, as believers, we are to follow the best path instructed in it.

For example if one verse says to stand up to oppression and the next one says patience and forgiveness are better, then we try to be patient and forgive people. The context of justice with mercy is clear in Qoran.  There has to be justice but mercy is also required from the believers.
Those who choose verses for whatever agenda they seek are not seeking to sincerely understand Qoran and its proper message.

Qoran is never about punishment ,it is about GOD Alone /system, the best choice, His mercy and system are all that there is.
Refusing this best choice is an automatic punishment of the soul ,if only people realise there is only one GOD. No other gods to run to or seek help from. Also there are no better gods /systems.
The one GOD creates what he wants and does what He plans. His are the best creations and the best plan. Sooner or later we will all realise.
But the human being will carry on arguing against GOD s message on the side of falsehood and rebellion against their creator regardless.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Ju5]

Hello good logic

Coming back to "cutting the hand of the thief in وَالسّارِقُ وَالسّارِقَةُ فَاقطَعوا أَيدِيَهُما جَزاءً بِما كَسَبا نَكٰلًا مِنَ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهُ عَزيزٌ حَكيمٌ
1- Which hand? or both hands? Since the verse says "Aydiyahuma- The hands(Plural) of both thieves!!!

- Subects : male and female thieves. How many hands have two thieves ? Four. Hence, both hands, and plural.

2- What about"Jaza an Bima Kassaba",how would you recompense the victim? By giving him/her the hand or hands?

You don't recompense the victims. The "recompense" is cutting the hands. It even says it is an exemplary punishment.

3-What is"Iktau Aydiyahuma as an idiom? like "Bima Kassabat Aydykum means "what you earned"?

You said cutting hands of tyrants in 5:33 was perfect justice. Now you say it is an idiom. Find a stance and stay on it. Furthermore on what basis do you claim it it an idiom? Do you have any thing to back up this view? The same words are used in other verses in the qur'an, and they appear to not be idioms.

4- "Jaza an Bima Jassaba"  Recompense of what they earned/took, Does cutting the hand/s give back the value/goods to the victim?
If you insist it is "cutting the hand" you will have a problem with the second part of the verse "Jazaan Bima Kassaba"

No one spoke about giving any goods back to victims. This verse is about cutting the hands of thieves for what they earned. This is supposed to be an exemplary punishment. Here is an example of the word used as a punishment :

21:29 And whoever of them should say, "Indeed, I am a god besides Him"- that one We would recompense with Hell. Thus do We recompense the wrongdoers.

5- You also will have a problem with how many hands each and how?

Both hands.

No details of how to carry out this punishment is given anywhere!!!!

And for 5:33 ? How do we cut the hands? No details of how to carry out this punishment is given anywhere!!!!

There is also no details on how to fart in the qur'an but you should probably be able to do it anyway. I think most people will pick a sharp knife and slice the hands.

Common sense and context of the whole verse will tell you that GOD is saying "cut off from what they earn/steal to return the stolen goods

If the only punishment for thieves is to take back what they stole and give it back to the victims it would be one of the most lax laws being possibly created. It would not deter anyone from stealing. Common sense and context do not indicate such a thing, you are clinging to the belief that you know god and know the meaning of life because knowing you will end in heaven is a reassuring thought. I hope you will find the answer but blinding yourself will not help.

Notice how GOD  is not saying to us "not to carry out the punishment" if they repent in 5:39. Unlike 5:34 where GOD has clearly said "Do not carry out the punishment" if they repent. What GOD has clearly said if they repent(stop any further thieving) then GOD will forgive them.
GOD is simply saying to take back from the thief what they have stolen-"Jaza an Bima Kassaba"- either  retake the goods or the value from what they have taken/earned.

Are you implying that "what they earned" means the goods belonging to the owner ? Because There is a pronoun but nothing referring to any owner, and "earned" is masculine 3rd person dual, dual=two subjects=the male and female thieves. What they earned is what they stole, or their deed. I'd like you to recognize how you can find the most farfetchd/dubious interpretations if it fits your belief and how you could not see a mountain in front of you if it went again your belief.

Please look at the picture of people without hands because of islam, if in some alternate reality of yours Allah used "cut hands" as a secret idiom, he would have a really dark sense of humor !
https://www.google.fr/search?q=cut+hands+thieves&rlz=1C1AVFA_enFR775FR775&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVuInsqYXaAhUNCuwKHV_5AzMQ_AUICigB&biw=1280&bih=592#imgrc=DxCugfnKVBgNQM:

who insist that 5:38 says "Cut the hand"  can do so, but in no way they will be able to explain the whole verse in a way that makes sense or agrees clearly on how to carry out this punishment.

See picture above.

You could say that for 5:33.

I simply will say "Iktau Aydiyahuman" is an idiom that means "Cut off their earnings/stolen goods" from them, Jaza an Bima Kassaba" to recompense for what has been stolen.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

There is a cluster of problems with the qur'an and with each of these problems, you pull metaphors abd baseless explanations, sometime they are not so baseless, but often still crappy. This is a big clue. Now is time to ponder this, should i believe and then ponder the qur'an, or ponder the qur'an and then believe. You will probably say "i already did ponder, which made me believe". You were wrong. I was wrong too. Please don't be arrogant and believe you cannot make any mistake. And now be honest, because your explabnations are farfetched, i can see in many posts of yours like many other people that you are biased and do not think about qur'an verses in an objective and neutral manner.
The most logic arguments from contradictors are thrown in the trashcan or examined in detail and the most absurd claims supporting the qur'an are believed without a second thought. If you are truly honest, you must stop this, and start doing everything you can to prove the qur'an is wrong. If you can not manage to do it, then the qur'an may be true. You won't be able to see any truth if you put the veil of your beliefs in front of your eyes. The qur'an says to be truthful. So be truthful and do this.